Lets talk about: Martial Arts

[JmOz]

So working on the 275 project and got to the MA, started to think "Should he be built using the MA rules, or maybe a Multipower and high stats"

 

Now the Ultimate Martial Artist talks about a number of alternate systems, including a CSL based one, and a MP one

 

So I thought I would see what people thought about it, so what I am looking for is a conversation about the pros and cons of different ways to build a MA

 

Right now I am debating over a MP

 

Just a lot of 5 point skill levels

 

A traditional build

 

some combo of the lot

 

i would like to hear oppinions and I am sorry if this is not to coherent as I am extremly tired right now

[Alibear]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

Well, each has valid uses. I personally really like the MP method for Super Powered Martial Artists and really dislike the Skill level method. You need 6 to 8 skill levels to make it effective and that rubs me up the wrong way except for really experienced characters. (200 - 300 xps)

 

I think a traditional hero build, martial art should be an option for anyone who spends lots of time in combat situations. They will learn the best way to use whatever power is available to them given years of stressful life or death brawls.

 

I also allow 1 and 2 point martial arts maneuvers to simulate someone learning an art but not quite 'mastered' it yet.After all you don't go from 0 - 15 points in a martial Art overnight, you learn slowly and you get better after years of practice. I don't insist on this method, I just prefer it. If someone trains with a master over several months I'd allow an instant purchase too. Supers are Super after all.

 

If anyone does buy 1 or 2 pt maneuvers they must be working towards a martial arts package. Either ones from the book or something homebrewed, but the complete MA must be written up before I allow it.

 

That's my thoughts.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

There are a couple of maneuvers that let you do things that you can't without them (or a much more efficiently) - Throw, Passing Strike and Flying Dodge for some basic examples.

 

Aside from that, for a supers game, I'd go multipower. MA maneuvers and extra DC are just (aside from the above examples) CV and damage. With a multi-power you can pull autofires, AP, or other special tricks; Much more versatile. Plus if the character is in the over the top mystic tradition, you can pull things like a healing with resurrection (a strike that heals, think a physical defib machine) that fit legends of ancient martial arts masters.

 

And if UMA doesn't give you enough ideas for what kind of slots to have, take a look at Black Cat in my sig. She has a bunch too.

[Checkmate]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

I like the Multipower way of doing it for Super Martial Artists. What I don't like is the HA advantages transfering to STR option given in the UMA. I use no range EB's. I think the costs more accuately reflect the power of the build.

 

That said, I think the Martial Arts skill is a bit over powered. I mean 4d6 no range sight group flash for 4 or 5 points? 2d6 no range NND for 4 points. Which can easily be brought up to 4d6 NND with 16 points. That 16 points also has the advantage of adding DC's to ALL your martial arts.

 

Then you have your other manuvers. Things like Grappling Block. I get to stop your attack AND grab you all at the same time. Passing Strike anyone? I get to make an attack AND a full move. The Martial Manuvers let you combine all kinds of different things.

 

Then if you define one attack as a kick and one as a punch, you can multiple power attack both attacks for the low, low cost of 8-9 points.

 

Dang we wanna bring up the MA vs Brick argument again?

[Comic]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

To me, the nature of your project makes the choice obvious: a pure maneuvers and skills build.

 

I'd even suggest going with skills instead of higher-than-human-normal-max characteristics. (EG, cap Primary Stats at 10, PD/ED at 8, SPD at 4, etc.) This likely means exploring two-weapon fighting and rapid attack to be effective, but it highlights the mechanics in the same way as other characters in this project highlight their own iconic builds.

[caris]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

My experience the biggest con to the pure Combat Skill Level method is GM issues. Too many GMs that I've played with do not allow you to buy sufficient number of Levels to use them as effectively as other methods of building martial arts. Usually, their reason is they do not want to let anyone have sufficient skill levels to exceed campaign caps, even if the player understands that they may not assign levels that way.

 

Secondarily the pure skill level method is usually most effective for a generalist with a fairly large number points invested in those skills. To mimick one Martial Manuever you generally need a minimum 3 CSLs for 8 points. Martial Manuevers only start loosing ground when you start buying manuevers that over lap in purpose.

[CTaylor]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

I had a writeup of all the martial arts maneuvers at 0 point levels, even the really strange ones in Ultimate Martial Arts. I used their system (usually lowering OCV and DCV to reduce the cost to zero) and made it generic so anyone could use any of these maneuvers without training. Using that and a few skill levels and you could have martial artists without needing to buy individual maneuvers. That seems like it would take the flavor out of the genre though. Sure, you can flying kick but so can the janitor, he just sucks at it.

[Alibear]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

Now you're talking.

 

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/h/hongkong.htm

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

I am right now favoing the MP, however Comic's comments are something that weighs heavily on me

[flyco]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

Congratulations to you, but this, of course not. You are very good, yes.

[Alibear]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

I am right now favoing the MP' date=' however Comic's comments are something that weighs heavily on me[/quote']

 

For the 275 write up I would personally go the skills and tradional build route. Unless, Martial Arts was the characters whole Schtick! But for characters like Goblin, who would have M.Arts as a side skill, if at all, I'd go the old fashioned route.

 

 

So, I'm saying a mix of both depending on the character

[Markdoc]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

Me, I'd go the MP route.

 

In fact, I've even written it up for you

 

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

 

These are only the base maneuvers, of course, but assuming GM's permission, there'd be no problem bulking them up to superheroic levels

 

cheers, Mark

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

For the 275 write up I would personally go the skills and tradional build route. Unless, Martial Arts was the characters whole Schtick! But for characters like Goblin, who would have M.Arts as a side skill, if at all, I'd go the old fashioned route.

 

 

So, I'm saying a mix of both depending on the character

 

Yes, this is for the dedicated Martial Artist

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

To me, the nature of your project makes the choice obvious: a pure maneuvers and skills build.

 

I'd even suggest going with skills instead of higher-than-human-normal-max characteristics. (EG, cap Primary Stats at 10, PD/ED at 8, SPD at 4, etc.) This likely means exploring two-weapon fighting and rapid attack to be effective, but it highlights the mechanics in the same way as other characters in this project highlight their own iconic builds.

 

While most have disagreed with you, I find your argument to be extremly strong and well stated. I am currently avoiding using non sidekick rules, this is a minor aversion as I have bent this a few times for things like Combat Luck so it is not a hard and fast rule.

[OddHat]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

The Multiple Power Attack rules make Martial Arts built as maneuvers a much better deal than MA built as a multipower. If the MPA rules aren't in place, but the sweep rules are, then maneuvers representing each base plus skill levels can simulate most real world martial arts very well (wild martial arts are tougher).

 

I also dislike modeling something with a power when a skill is already available; it's an aesthetic / conceptual thing rather than a practical choice, but there you go.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

To slightly hijack the discussion one small problem I have with Hero MAs is thatthey are most efficient wwhen bought to the minimum level.

 

In fact there are only two resonas I can see to buy traditional martial arts, the Hero way:

 

1. You are planning on just getting a few signature moves

2. You want access to maneouvres you can't normally get, like martial throw, nerve strike etc.

 

Actually, 3:

 

3. You are planning on whomping up the damage with extra MA damage (it is an efficient build for +1 DC/4 points at 0 END/you want to take advantage of the damage adding rules.

 

There is very much a law of diminishing returns with MA - you are buying a tiny bit of extra flexibility but the cost is increasing relatviely dramatically.

 

So, here's how I'd go (being a munchkin):

 

1. Traditional martial arts: throw, choke hold, martial strike (11 points). if you have UMA there are more 'unusual' options. As much extra damage as you like. Maybe martial dodge, for when things get sticky. Almost certainly flying dodge if you have a gonzo GM

 

2. Skills: always useful for that flexible approach and you can do sso much with them. You only need 3 pointers with MA, probably.

 

3. A small MP (no figured STR in one slot, maybe a couple of slots of advantaged HA, so you can do a horrendous AP martial strike thing, possibly a sight flash - that sort of thing.

 

In other words: why limit yourself? Each approach brings something to the party - for that well rounded character, how about the buffet styleee?

[Remjin]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

As a whole, I personally find using MA maneuvers for effects (like the throws, joint locks, and what-not) and powers for more fantastic stuff or damage increases. A good combination of all the options seems to work for a nice balance, while the maneuvers make effects simple to buy. Customizing the maneuver with UMA to get rid of or add DCs or CV values also helps a lot in keeping things within campaign limits and not get ridiculous.

[Alibear]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

I have found that most Martial Arts are most useful when you buy the most varied package coupled with the most expensive maneuvers available

 

 

That way the dreaded Multiple Martial Arts Maneuvers attack comes into play.

 

GRAB, THROW, CHOKE, STRIKE etc. with little or no penalties.

 

 

Which is very cool, and exactly how fights with high Dan v normals always end up.

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

Right now I am thinking if I go Buffet style, it will be a Martial Flash: Sight, Martial Throw, and Legsweep

 

+4 HtH levels

25 point pool with about 10 slots (including things like MD, extra Str, advantage HA, some extra Leaping, etc...)

 

Total of about 65 points, but when done should be able to copy or be better than every manuever in the book

[Alibear]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

You will show us the finished product?

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

I will

[caris]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

Right now I am thinking if I go Buffet style, it will be a Martial Flash: Sight, Martial Throw, and Legsweep

 

+4 HtH levels

25 point pool with about 10 slots (including things like MD, extra Str, advantage HA, some extra Leaping, etc...)

 

Total of about 65 points, but when done should be able to copy or be better than every manuever in the book

 

I'm curious about your reasoning. What benefit, if any, do you see in getting both the martial throw and the legsweep, over one of them and levels?

[JmOz]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

Legsweep gives +1d6 damage, the martial throw gives +v/5.

[OddHat]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

Legsweep gives +1d6 damage' date=' the martial throw gives +v/5.[/quote']

 

So why not get a Martial Strike and a Martial Throw, then MPA with them? +2d6, Target Falls, + v/5. Add in a Martial Block and hold your action, and you can do the classic Block+Strike+Throw.

 

Personally, I love Passing Strike and Flying Dodge. Full move maneuvers can be very effective in an open area.

[Remjin]

Re: Lets talk about: Martial Arts

 

So why not get a Martial Strike and a Martial Throw, then MPA with them? +2d6, Target Falls, + v/5. Add in a Martial Block and hold your action, and you can do the classic Block+Strike+Throw.

 

Personally, I love Passing Strike and Flying Dodge. Full move maneuvers can be very effective in an open area.

 

My brick's favorite was grappling block. Helped against speedsters and the like...