MPAs and Martial Arts

[Vestnik]

OK.

 

Let's say I have the following attacks:

 

1d6 HKA

1d6 HKA, Reduced Penetration

1d6+1 HKA, Armor-Piercing

 

Let's say I also have Martial Arts, say the standard Martial Strike.

 

If I do an MPA with my three KAs, can I Martial Strike with all of them, or only one?

[Alibear]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

Yes, all if they are a viable element for your M.Art.

[Vestnik]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

Great, thanks!

 

PS. If have natural weapons (claws), do I have to buy WE: Claws?

[Alibear]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

Not if it is a 'claws' Martial Art. You always get one W. Element for free.

 

If you want to use unarmed combat and claws you'll need to buy an element.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

Also note that many GMs will not allow an MPA with three HKAs.

 

And if allowed, you have to pay END for STR used for each attack.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

If you read the rules on MPA, you'll see that it specifically states that you arent supposed to mix several attacks of the same base -- like multiple killing attacks.

 

The purpose of MPA is to allow you to do things like Flash & EB without having to link the powers together with the Limitation Linked...in fact, without MPA Linked doesnt make a lot of sense as a Limitation in the first place for attack.

 

MPA's and Martial Arts let you do thinks like mix Martial Grab with Nerve Strike and Legsweep for some kind of complex maneuver -- like "grab them by the feet and up-end them, causing them to pile drive on their neck" and other cinematic things like that you see in some Martial Arts movies that are otherwise nigh-impossible to do.

[Alibear]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

I'm confused, does MPA stand for Multiple Power Attack? Why couldn't you set off all three killing attacks in one phase? That is the very essence of gangfire surely?

 

The thing I have to ask is how you built the claws? In a multipower or not?

 

For example, a lion could attack with claws and bite in one phase as the teeth killing attack is seperate from the claws killing attack and are purchased stand alone.

 

 

 

 

Can you be specific with the build involved, please?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

I'm confused, does MPA stand for Multiple Power Attack? Why couldn't you set off all three killing attacks in one phase? That is the very essence of gangfire surely?

 

The thing I have to ask is how you built the claws? In a multipower or not?

 

For example, a lion could attack with claws and bite in one phase as the teeth killing attack is seperate from the claws killing attack and are purchased stand alone.

 

 

 

 

Can you be specific with the build involved, please?

MPA = Multiple Power Attack.

 

MPA's are explained on FRED Page 358, 359, and 360. There is a section called "Different Powers"; it indicates that two things that just cause damage are generally not distinct enough to be MPA'd, and it recommends Sweep / Rapid Fire for combining such attacks. An exception is made for using two similar / identical attacks as another way to represent two-weapon fighting at the GM's option (which makes TWF pretty useless).

[Alibear]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

So if a mech say, had multiple weapon system, could fire them at once or not?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

So if a mech say' date=' had multiple weapon system, could fire them at once or not?[/quote']

 

Depends on:

 

A) how they were built

the GM's discretion

[Vestnik]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

I'm confused, does MPA stand for Multiple Power Attack? Why couldn't you set off all three killing attacks in one phase? That is the very essence of gangfire surely?

 

The thing I have to ask is how you built the claws? In a multipower or not?

 

For example, a lion could attack with claws and bite in one phase as the teeth killing attack is seperate from the claws killing attack and are purchased stand alone.

 

 

 

 

Can you be specific with the build involved, please?

 

Actually it is an animal-based (dinosaur-based) character. The first KA is his bite, the second is his foreclaws and the last is his "Terrible Claw." I had them all stuck in a multipower, so in theory he could either attack with the claws and bite simultaneously or just attack with the TC (30-Point MP, the first two are cheap enough to come up to 30 pts. together and the third costs 30 pts.)

[Vestnik]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

MPA = Multiple Power Attack.

 

MPA's are explained on FRED Page 358, 359, and 360. There is a section called "Different Powers"; it indicates that two things that just cause damage are generally not distinct enough to be MPA'd, and it recommends Sweep / Rapid Fire for combining such attacks. An exception is made for using two similar / identical attacks as another way to represent two-weapon fighting at the GM's option (which makes TWF pretty useless).

 

So how do the lions and so forth in the Bestiary use both their claws and bite simultaneously, as I assume they do? (Because that's what real lions do.) There must be some mechanism.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

So how do the lions and so forth in the Bestiary use both their claws and bite simultaneously' date=' as I assume they do? (Because that's what real lions do.) There must be some mechanism.[/quote']

 

A) The GM can allow them as two similar attacks for purposes of MPA (treating bite / claw as similar to weapons in two hands) if they prefer

Sweep

C) The Bite might be more of a Grab + damage if they latch on with a bite and then rake w/ their claws (and thus fall more into the category of "combining interesting effects" than into the category of "just to do more damage")

[Susano]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

A) The GM can allow them as two similar attacks for purposes of MPA (treating bite / claw as similar to weapons in two hands) if they prefer

Sweep

C) The Bite might be more of a Grab + damage if they latch on with a bite and then rake w/ their claws (and thus fall more into the category of "combining interesting effects" than into the category of "just to do more damage")

 

C is how I see it. You could also go with a Phase 1 Bite/Grab, then Phase 2 rake with Claws.

[archermoo]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

Also note that many GMs will not allow an MPA with three HKAs.

 

And if allowed, you have to pay END for STR used for each attack.

 

According to 5ER p34 (Thrid paragraph under the STRENGTH (STR) header) you only have to pay END on STR once per Phase, regardless of the number of different ways you use it in that Phase.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

True. There is also an exception to that rule in The Ultimate Brick; I'll look up the reference when I get home.

 

For some reason, that text did not make it into 5er. There was a question on this matter a while ago on the Rules forum; Steve said STR was paid for only once regardless. I snt him an email with the TUB reference. Never heard back. Don't know if the rule was changed or not...

 

[edit]

 

Never mind, found the thread:

 

my post

 

and

 

Hyper-Man's reply

[archermoo]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

True. There is also an exception to that rule in The Ultimate Brick; I'll look up the reference when I get home.

 

For some reason, that text did not make it into 5er. There was a question on this matter a while ago on the Rules forum; Steve said STR was paid for only once regardless. I sent him an email with the TUB reference. Never heard back. Don't know if the rule was changed or not...

 

Cool. I haven't read through TUB enough to have seen it there (and don't have it on pdf to look up here at work), and remembered not only the 5ER ruling but the rules call from Steve. I wonder if Steve considers the exception in TUB to be an optional rule, so doesn't include it when making rules calls.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

We cross-posted.

[archermoo]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

We cross-posted.

 

Well, the FAQ certainly makes it clear for Autofire, and could certainly be reasonably extended to MPAs. Steve is usually pretty good at replying to e-mails, I'm guessing that yours somehow went astray. A PM (or even a clarifying question on the rules board) might be a good followup.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

Actually it is an animal-based (dinosaur-based) character. The first KA is his bite' date=' the second is his foreclaws and the last is his "Terrible Claw." I had them all stuck in a multipower, so in theory he could either attack with the claws and bite simultaneously or just attack with the TC (30-Point MP, the first two are cheap enough to come up to 30 pts. together and the third costs 30 pts.)[/quote']Vestnik,

 

I missed this earlier, but using two or more slots from the same Power Framework is not allowed in an MPA, even if sufficient reserve points are available to do so (5er, page 358).

 

Personally, I don't see a problem with using multiple Multipower slots provided that the reserve is big enough and would house-rule that it would work, but it isn't allowed in RAW.

 

I asked for the default (yes/no) status on allowing animal MPAs on the Rules forum.

 

 

I also asked on the Rules forum about the discrepancy between TUB and 5er.

 

For Mecha, I'd use the GM's option to allow multiple RKAs, etc., as there should be offsetting negative effects (heat).

[Vestnik]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

Vestnik,

 

I missed this earlier, but using two or more slots from the same Power Framework is not allowed in an MPA, even if sufficient reserve points are available to do so (5er, page 358).

 

Thanks. But then why do the dragons in the Bestiary seem to be designed to do just that? IIRC they have something like this:

 

60-MP-Dragon Attacks

4u Claws: 1 1/2d6 HKA

4u Bite: 2d6 HKA Armor-Piercing

8m Tail Bash: 8d6 HTH Attack

[Tonio]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

I missed this earlier, but using two or more slots from the same Power Framework is not allowed in an MPA, even if sufficient reserve points are available to do so (5er, page 358).

 

Personally, I don't see a problem with using multiple Multipower slots provided that the reserve is big enough and would house-rule that it would work, but it isn't allowed in RAW.

 

That seems like a thoroughly ridiculous rule... I wonder what the logic behind it is. I, too, see no problem with using multiple MP slots given a big enough reserve... not to mention multiple EC slots. After all, you CAN turn on multiple powers in a Phase... if you can turn on 3 attack powers, why shouldn't you be able to attack with all of them? o_O

[Alibear]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

I think this is more to do with game balance than making any particular sense.

[Tonio]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

I think this is more to do with game balance than making any particular sense.

 

That'd be my impression, too, but I can't figure out what it balances, why it's unbalancing to do a MPA with multiple powers from a single power framework. For example, I can have four ECs, based on Fire, Ice, Stone, and Air powers, each one with an EB, and I can MPA with those four EBs. But if my Fire EC has two EBs while my Air one has none, I can only MPA with three EBs.

[JmOz]

Re: MPAs and Martial Arts

 

Thanks. But then why do the dragons in the Bestiary seem to be designed to do just that? IIRC they have something like this:

 

60-MP-Dragon Attacks

4u Claws: 1 1/2d6 HKA

4u Bite: 2d6 HKA Armor-Piercing

8m Tail Bash: 8d6 HTH Attack

 

YOu have found one of the rules changes from 5th edition, originaly in 5th you could use 2 powers in a multipower to attack if you had enough points to power both of them