1 pip RKA, Penetrating

[Tonio]

What, exactly, does Penetrating do on a 1 pip RKA? 1 pip is like rolling a 1 on the damage die, which would do 0 BODY minumum as per Penetrating rules, so it'd seem like Penetrating is doing nothing, yet I see many builds like that. I'd understand a 1 pip HKA with Penetrating, which would be 1/2 d6 with STR, but I don't get it, on an RKA.

[Edsel]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

As I understand it, it will do 1 BODY past defenses (unless those defenses are hardened). This sort of write-up is often used to simulate things like small cutting torches, incenerators, etc.

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

As I understand it' date=' it will do 1 BODY past defenses (unless those defenses are hardened). This sort of write-up is often used to simulate things like small cutting torches, incenerators, etc.[/quote']

 

That's what I'd think it'd do, too. But then I read the Penetrating description, and it says it does 1 point of effect minimum for every 1 "normal" BODY rolled. "Effect" depends on the power: STUN for normal attacks, BODY for killing attacks, etc. In the case of killing attacks, a roll of 1 does 0 BODY minimum, 2-5 1 BODY minimum, 6 2 BODY minimum. A 1 pip RKA is the equivalent of rolling a 1, so it'd do 0 BODY minimum. What am I getting wrong?

[JmOz]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

That's what I'd think it'd do' date=' too. But then I read the Penetrating description, and it says it does 1 point of effect minimum for every 1 "normal" BODY rolled. "Effect" depends on the power: STUN for normal attacks, BODY for killing attacks, etc. In the case of killing attacks, a roll of 1 does 0 BODY minimum, 2-5 1 BODY minimum, 6 2 BODY minimum. A 1 pip RKA is the equivalent of rolling a 1, so it'd do 0 BODY minimum. What am I getting wrong? [/quote']

 

1 pip is an exception to that rule, one exception BTW that I do not allow in my games

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Is that an official exception? In the FAQ? I don't like it, either. Seems unbalanced, especially since I could then buy 3 such attacks and basically get NND (Defense is Resistant, Hardened Defenses), Does BODY (+2 total) for +1/2. ;-)

[JmOz]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Is that an official exception? In the FAQ? I don't like it' date=' either. Seems unbalanced, especially since I could then buy 3 such attacks and basically get NND (Defense is Resistant, Hardened Defenses), Does BODY (+2 total) for +1/2. ;-)[/quote']

 

It is/was in the Faq, it might have been removed after 5 revised came out, if 5 revised says it explicitly

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Is that an official exception? In the FAQ? I don't like it' date=' either. Seems unbalanced, especially since I could then buy 3 such attacks and basically get NND (Defense is Resistant, Hardened Defenses), Does BODY (+2 total) for +1/2. ;-)[/quote']

 

It's in the FAQ. I'm also among those who "unrules" the ruling. I would allow the 1 BOD to penetrate if the attacker rolls a 6 on 1d6, but having 1 BOD penetrate from 1 pip, when a 1/2d6 will average 1/2 BOD and 1d6 will average 1 is ridiculous.

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

It is/was in the Faq' date=' it might have been removed after 5 revised came out, if 5 revised says it explicitly[/quote']

 

Hah, it does!

 

With Killing Attacks, the presumption is that

Penetrating applies to the BODY damage, but a

character can apply it to the STUN instead. A 1-

point Killing Attack does 1 BODY Penetrating; a

half die of Killing Attack does 1 BODY if it rolls

a 4, 5, or 6 (minimum of 1 point); a Killing Attack

that adds +1 to the dice rolled doesn’t get any extra

benefi t if it’s Penetrating.

 

No sir, I don't like it... Penetrating (costing +1/2) is doing the same as "NND, Does BODY" (costing +2)! Moreso, a 1 pip KA gets the same benefit as a 1/2 d6 KA from Penetrating... no good!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Hah, it does!

 

No sir, I don't like it... Penetrating (costing +1/2) is doing the same as "NND, Does BODY" (costing +2)! Moreso, a 1 pip KA gets the same benefit as a 1/2 d6 KA from Penetrating... no good!

 

Honestly, I'd never even thought of this (admittedly badly broken) combination; it may be rules legal, but I'd likely enforce "You must buy 1d6 Killing to apply Penetrating." It's a /!\ Advantage, IIRC, so that's a perfectly reasonable way of handling it.

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Honestly' date=' I'd never even thought of this (admittedly badly broken) combination; it may be rules legal, but I'd likely enforce "You must buy 1d6 Killing to apply Penetrating." It's a [u']/!\[/u] Advantage, IIRC, so that's a perfectly reasonable way of handling it.

 

I'd be fine with 1/2 or more, since that still keeps the basic mechanic. I just don't like the exception made for 1 pip (1 pip should do 0 BODY minumum, as per the general Penetrating mechanic). This still doesn't make it useless for RKA: the RKA could be Aided, in which case it'd still be Penetrating. HKAs, of course, can be doubled with STR, so there's no issue.

[Vestnik]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

My issue is that I want my poison darts not to do much actual damage to the target (outside of the poison). A 1d6 RKA will do plenty damage to an unarmored normal. Two darts can take him out. 3 1/2d6 RKAs can kill him. This does not fit with the idea of little darts. Hence the attack that just does 1 BODY, but stull penetrates defenses.

 

My other issue is that I want my Penetrating to only work on objects below a certain DEF (so it will penetrate Kevlar or thin steel, but not tank armor). I am not sure how to do that.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

My issue is that I want my poison darts not to do much actual damage to the target (outside of the poison). A 1d6 RKA will do plenty damage to an unarmored normal. Two darts can take him out. 3 1/2d6 RKAs can kill him. This does not fit with the idea of little darts. Hence the attack that just does 1 BODY, but stull penetrates defenses.

 

My other issue is that I want my Penetrating to only work on objects below a certain DEF (so it will penetrate Kevlar or thin steel, but not tank armor). I am not sure how to do that.

 

Custom Limitation: Does not penetrate Hardened Targets with DEF of X or More. (-1/2).

[jtelson]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

My issue is that I want my poison darts not to do much actual damage to the target (outside of the poison). A 1d6 RKA will do plenty damage to an unarmored normal. Two darts can take him out. 3 1/2d6 RKAs can kill him. This does not fit with the idea of little darts. Hence the attack that just does 1 BODY, but stull penetrates defenses.

 

My other issue is that I want my Penetrating to only work on objects below a certain DEF (so it will penetrate Kevlar or thin steel, but not tank armor). I am not sure how to do that.

 

I'd probably say do this as 1/2d6 penetrating

 

The idea that 1 pip always does 1 body but 1/2d6 only does 1 body 1/2 the time seems poorly concieved. (Hmmm lets see, 1pipRKa, AOE Hex, Autofire, Penetrating. That's a 15 point endorsement for hardened defenses)

[Shaft]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

In the case of killing attacks' date=' a roll of 1 does 0 BODY minimum, 2-5 1 BODY minimum, 6 2 BODY minimum. A 1 pip RKA is the equivalent of rolling a 1, so it'd do 0 BODY minimum. What am I getting wrong? [/quote']

 

In the case of killing attacks, a roll of 1 does 1 BODY (a roll of 2 is 2 BODY, 3 is 3 BODY, etc...). Your calculation is for Normal damage.

 

A 1 pip Killing attack is like an attack that always rolls 1, hence 1 Body. Making it penetrating just allows that pip to get through non-hardened resistant defense.

[Brother Jim]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

That's what I'd think it'd do' date=' too. But then I read the Penetrating description, and it says it does 1 point of effect minimum for every 1 "normal" BODY rolled. "Effect" depends on the power: STUN for normal attacks, BODY for killing attacks, etc. In the case of killing attacks, a roll of 1 does 0 BODY minimum, 2-5 1 BODY minimum, 6 2 BODY minimum. A 1 pip RKA is the equivalent of rolling a 1, so it'd do 0 BODY minimum. What am I getting wrong? [/quote']

 

I seem to remember (and am just too lazy to check) that KAs roll the Body and read it directly off the die. What you're describing sounds like a Normal attack.

[jtelson]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

In the case of killing attacks, a roll of 1 does 1 BODY (a roll of 2 is 2 BODY, 3 is 3 BODY, etc...). Your calculation is for Normal damage.

 

A 1 pip Killing attack is like an attack that always rolls 1, hence 1 Body. Making it penetrating just allows that pip to get through non-hardened resistant defense.

 

In the case of a penetrating killing attack rolling 1 does 0 'penetrating body', that's why absent the erraatta a 1 pip penetrating killing attack would do 0 'penetrating body' vs non-hardened resistant defenses.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

In the case of killing attacks, a roll of 1 does 1 BODY (a roll of 2 is 2 BODY, 3 is 3 BODY, etc...). Your calculation is for Normal damage.

 

A 1 pip Killing attack is like an attack that always rolls 1, hence 1 Body. Making it penetrating just allows that pip to get through non-hardened resistant defense.

 

3 Watch Where You Point That Thing! 1 pip RKA (5 Points), Penetrating (+1/2); No Range (-1/2), OAF (Acetylene Torch, -1), RSR (Welding, -1/2), Side Effect (Side Effect Always Occurs Whenever Power Is Used, Flash: Sight Group 1d6, Only at close range, -0).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

In the case of a penetrating killing attack rolling 1 does 0 'penetrating body'' date=' that's why absent the erraatta a 1 pip penetrating killing attack would do 0 'penetrating body' vs non-hardened resistant defenses.[/quote']

 

Er... no, that's for Normal Damage. Where a roll of 1 is zero BODY, and 2-5 is one BODY and 6 is two BODY. This is for a killing attack, which counts pips as BODY damage. And, on Penetrating Killing, 1 BODY always gets through. On Penetrating NORMAL attacks, 1 STUN always gets through.

[jtelson]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

I seem to remember (and am just too lazy to check) that KAs roll the Body and read it directly off the die. What you're describing sounds like a Normal attack.

 

Easier way to phrase it, For purposes of 'penetrating body damage' read killing attack damage dice as body for normal damage dice (Thus 1 = 0, 2-5 = 1, 6 = 2).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Easier way to phrase it' date=' For purposes of 'penetrating body damage' read killing attack damage dice as body for normal damage dice (Thus 1 = 0, 2-5 = 1, 6 = 2).[/quote']

 

Possibly I have an incomplete understanding of the rules. Where in the book are you looking?

[jtelson]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Possibly I have an incomplete understanding of the rules. Where in the book are you looking?

 

At work and so without rules but here's a section of the FAQ

 

Q: Could you provide an example of the various methods for applying Penetrating, using an RKA 1d6 (3 DCs)?

A: Using the standard method, an RKA 1d6 has no BODY Penetrate on a roll of 1, 1 BODY Penetrate on a roll of 2-5, and 2 BODY Penetrate on a roll of 6.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

At work and so without rules but here's a section of the FAQ

 

Wow. I'm just going to un-read that. Because it doesn't make any [edit] sense to me. I'm sure it's right, i.e., it's in the FAQ. I'll file this under "politely disagree." Now that I've seen the build within reason and for specific SFX I have no problem with a 1 pip Penetrating RKA. Would I give it to a player as a weapon? Likely no. Does it work as a device? Sure.

[jtelson]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Wow. I'm just going to un-read that. Because it doesn't make any [edit] sense to me. I'm sure it's right' date=' [i']i.e.[/i], it's in the FAQ. I'll file this under "politely disagree." Now that I've seen the build within reason and for specific SFX I have no problem with a 1 pip Penetrating RKA. Would I give it to a player as a weapon? Likely no. Does it work as a device? Sure.

 

You're call, but that entry isn't an errata it's just descibing how penetrating has always worked.

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Thia, I'm not sure you're understanding correctly. We're not describing how much BODY killing attacks do, in general. We're describing how much minimum damage gets through defenses given the Penetrating Advantage. Penetrating is described as doing a minimum of 1 point of "effect" for every "normal BODY" rolled. "Effect" depends on the power (it's STUN for Normal Attacks, BODY for Killing Attacks, etc.). "Normal BODY" is {1: 0, 2-5: 1, 6: 2}, that is, the way you calculate the BODY damage on a Normal attack.

 

For example, a 3d6 RKA, Penetrating, against 10 rPD, would do 3 damage through defenses if the rolls were: 2, 3, 4. The total is 9, which wouldn't go through defenses, but the "BODY" rolled is 3 (not actual BODY rolled, but rather "how much BODY would've been rolled had this been a Normal attack). Had the rolls been 1, 2, 2, then only 2 BODY would've gone through defenses. Against 20 rPD, a roll of 6, 6, 6 would do 6 BODY (2 for each of the 6's rolled).

 

Another example, a 12d6 EB, Penetrating, against 50 PD would never do any BODY, and would do the rolled BODY in STUN, minimum (i.e., if you roll 14 BODY, you'd do 14 STUN minimum, even if the rolls were 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 6, 6, not enough to normally go through defenses).

 

So a 1 pip RKA, Penetrating, really SHOULD do 0 BODY minimum, since it's equivalent to always rolling a 1 on a 1d6 RKA. An exception is made to have it do 1 BODY, always, which mucks with the whole system, especially since now a 1 pip RKA, Penetrating has a higher minimum damage than a 1/2 d6 RKA, Penetrating.

 

Additionally, the "a killing attack that always does exactly 1 damage, unless the defenses are Hardened" concept is buildable w/o the exception: 1 pip RKA, NND (defenses are Hardened Resistant Defenses), Does BODY.

[Shaft]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

jtelson is right. From p.266 5ed Revised:

 

"...the target takes a minimum of 1 point of effect for every 1 "Normal Damage BODY" rolled on the dice or the damage he'd take from the attack, whichever is greater..."

 

But further down it says:

 

"...A 1-point Killing attack does 1 BODY penetrating; a half die of Killing Attack does 1 BODY if it rolls a 4,5 or 6 (minimum of 1 point); a Killing Attack that adds +1 to the dice rolled doesn't get any extra benefit if it's Penetrating."

 

The "(minimum of 1 point)" adds to the confusion: my interpretation is that it it's a 2DC Killing attack, it does a minimum of 1 pt, as per the 1DC KA. If it's a 1/2 die past the first, it doesn't have that minimum.

 

So a 1/2d6K Penetrating does a minimum of 1 BODY, the half die on a 3-1/2d6K only does penetrating damage on a 4,5 or 6.