PRE Attack Find Weakness?

[Tigereye]

Sorry if this question has been posted before (someone should really post these to the FAQ), but I'm still sort of new to the system, and want to make sure my powers are legit.

 

Can Find Weakness be used for Presence Attacks? It's my understanding it can theoretically be used for any sort of attack, but I just want the limitation of one attack, and two types of defenses - Presence vs. Presence+PRE Defenses. If the roll is successful, do I in fact halve the opponents' PRE, as that is their normal Defense against PRE Attacks, as EGO is to EGO Attacks/Mind Control/Mental Illusions? (I'm also getting Limitations such as Extra Time- the character cannot use it until he's seen his target operate for a while, being a careful superspy.)

[jtelson]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

There is normaly no 'defence' against PRE attacks. PRE attacks generate an effect total which is compared to PRE or EGO much like Mind Control generates an effect total (after Mental Defense that can be halved; I think) which is compared to EGO. If someone has purchased a PRE defense power of some kind (PRE only vs PRE attacks (-1) maybe?) then you might rule that the value of that could be halved by Find Weakness, but even that would seem a bit dodgy to me as it is still just extra PRE.

[jtelson]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

Sorry, I should have said, to build what you're looking for I'd probably go with extra PRE only for PRE attacks that requires time and observation.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

There is normaly no 'defence' against PRE attacks. PRE attacks generate an effect total which is compared to PRE or EGO much like Mind Control generates an effect total (after Mental Defense that can be halved; I think) which is compared to EGO. If someone has purchased a PRE defense power of some kind (PRE only vs PRE attacks (-1) maybe?) then you might rule that the value of that could be halved by Find Weakness' date=' but even that would seem a bit dodgy to me as it is still just extra PRE.[/quote']Agreed to this. I'd allow Find Weakness to halve Presence Defense bought as Presence with a -1 Only To Defend Against Presence Attacks Limitation, but that happens so infrequently -- in practically any game -- that the Find Weakness wouldn't even come close to being worth the points.

[Kdansky]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

x PRE, only for Presence Attacks (-1/4 ?), extra time full phase (-?), requires a skill roll: "find presence weakness"-skill. (-?)

[The Monster]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

Another way to do it might be to use your action to Drain PRE, then follow that up with a Presence Attack against their newly-trashed PRE.

Works for Darklord!

[SteveZilla]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

22 PRE-Attack Find Weakness: Suppress PRE 6d6 + Zero END(+1/2), Uncontrolled(Lasts Until End of Encounter; +1/2)(60 Active Points) - RSR: Power Skill(Cumulative -2 Penalty per repeated application to same target, Roll subject to Lack of Weakness; -3/4) - Effect Limited to Halving Current Presence(-1/2) - Only Reduces Target's PRE vs Your PRE Attacks(-1/2)

[nexus]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

There is normaly no 'defence' against PRE attacks. PRE attacks generate an effect total which is compared to PRE or EGO much like Mind Control generates an effect total (after Mental Defense that can be halved; I think) which is compared to EGO. If someone has purchased a PRE defense power of some kind (PRE only vs PRE attacks (-1) maybe?) then you might rule that the value of that could be halved by Find Weakness' date=' but even that would seem a bit dodgy to me as it is still just extra PRE.[/quote']

 

Personally, I agree with the last. Pre "Only to Defend" isn't a Defensive Power, it's Limited Extra Presence. Ego brought "Only to calculate Effect Rolls threadholds" isn't the same thing as Mental Defense and "Con Only vs Stunning" isn't PD or ED.

 

Pre Only to Defend is pretty common in my games (I like the construct. It explains characters that are hard to scare but not particularly imposing or resistant to flat out mental powers) and I would let a Find Weakness reduce it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

To take an alternative approach:

 

22 points: Detect A Class Of Things: PRE Weaknesses 11- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Range, Sense

 

This is a straightforward enhanced sense (you could make it cheaper if you base it on another sense, and you might not need analyse either) that enables you to detect what would make presence attack particularly effective against a target; in short you can detect the disadvantages of the character that appertain to PRE attacks, or at least work out what approach your PRE attack should take for maximum effect. It is a sort of Find Weakness for PRE attacks without actually being, you know, Find Weakness for PRE attacks

[nexus]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

To take an alternative approach:

 

22 points: Detect A Class Of Things: PRE Weaknesses 11- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Range, Sense

 

This is a straightforward enhanced sense (you could make it cheaper if you base it on another sense, and you might not need analyse either) that enables you to detect what would make presence attack particularly effective against a target; in short you can detect the disadvantages of the character that appertain to PRE attacks, or at least work out what approach your PRE attack should take for maximum effect. It is a sort of Find Weakness for PRE attacks without actually being, you know, Find Weakness for PRE attacks

 

That's a really interesting take on it, Sean.

[SteveZilla]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

To take an alternative approach:

 

22 points: Detect A Class Of Things: PRE Weaknesses 11- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Range, Sense

 

This is a straightforward enhanced sense (you could make it cheaper if you base it on another sense, and you might not need analyze either) that enables you to detect what would make presence attack particularly effective against a target; in short you can detect the disadvantages of the character that appertain to PRE attacks, or at least work out what approach your PRE attack should take for maximum effect. It is a sort of Find Weakness for PRE attacks without actually being, you know, Find Weakness for PRE attacks

 

That's a really interesting take on it' date=' Sean.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Though I think that it would definitely require GM approval. Normally that information is only attainable by achieving an EGO to EGO+10 Telepathy (Surface Thoughts to Deep, Hidden Thoughts).

[Tigereye]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

Thanks, everyone. Some things to chew on. You guys are good.

 

The problem is how do you do a "cool customer"; someone whose presence is more than just being big, or godlike, or in a battlesuit, but without just jacking their PRE up to beyond-human, unrealistic levels? Where even a supervillain takes a step back to assess the situation. I mean, my PC is James Bond, not Batman. He has a PRE aside from his score even though he's only 6 feet tall and under 200 lbs. But to raise his PRE to 30, so that even the Doctor Nos and Ernst Stavro Blofelds take at least some notice (and the thugs flee), is not appropriate. He needs some other mechanism to simulate it.

 

PRE is one of those characteristics I wish they'd better define in 6th edition. What applies to PRE from the rules applied to other characteristics or powers? What doesn't apply? For instance, is there "Armor Piercing" PRE?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

Thanks, everyone. Some things to chew on. You guys are good.

 

The problem is how do you do a "cool customer"; someone whose presence is more than just being big, or godlike, or in a battlesuit, but without just jacking their PRE up to beyond-human, unrealistic levels? Where even a supervillain takes a step back to assess the situation. I mean, my PC is James Bond, not Batman. He has a PRE aside from his score even though he's only 6 feet tall and under 200 lbs. But to raise his PRE to 30, so that even the Doctor Nos and Ernst Stavro Blofelds take at least some notice (and the thugs flee), is not appropriate. He needs some other mechanism to simulate it.

 

PRE is one of those characteristics I wish they'd better define in 6th edition. What applies to PRE from the rules applied to other characteristics or powers? What doesn't apply? For instance, is there "Armor Piercing" PRE?

 

You might consider some Limited PRE, Limited EGO, and the Reputation Perk. The PRE and EGO would, if I'm understanding your intent rightly, probably be Limited to Defensive Only (-1).

[SteveZilla]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

PRE is one of those characteristics I wish they'd better define in 6th edition. What applies to PRE from the rules applied to other characteristics or powers? What doesn't apply? For instance' date=' is there "Armor Piercing" PRE?[/quote']

 

IMO they (Hero System) did not make an actual "Presence Defense" in part to the fact that a Presence Attack always "hits", and can be somewhat AoE already. Thus, there aren't any Damage-modifying Advantages for it, like Armor Piercing(+½), Penetrating(+½), or NND(+). Note that I consider the example power where PRE is bought with Does Knockback to be fairly ludicrous*. It should just be PRE witih extra Limited PRE, and one of the effects of receiving a very high result could be being staggered (OCV, DCV, and movement penalties).

 

 

* I have a mental image of an Ah-nuld type posing and flexing his muscles, and the victim being knocked though a wall.

 

 

You might consider some Limited PRE' date=' Limited EGO, and the Reputation Perk. The PRE and EGO would, if I'm understanding your intent rightly, probably be Limited to Defensive Only (-1).[/quote']

 

These are good ideas, especially the Reputation Perk, which IMO is underused.

[Mike W]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

Sorry if this question has been posted before (someone should really post these to the FAQ)' date=' but I'm still sort of new to the system, and want to make sure my powers are legit.Can Find Weakness be used for Presence Attacks? It's my understanding it can theoretically be used for any sort of attack, but I just want the limitation of one attack, and two types of defenses - Presence vs. Presence+PRE Defenses. If the roll is successful, do I in fact halve the opponents' PRE, as that is their normal Defense against PRE Attacks, as EGO is to EGO Attacks/Mind Control/Mental Illusions? (I'm also getting Limitations such as Extra Time- the character cannot use it until he's seen his target operate for a while, being a careful superspy.)[/quote']I'm not crazy about any of the alternate builds. Find Weakness isn't good. Extra PRE only with Extra time isn't good. The basic idea for such a thing would probably be that you can hit the right "sore spot" so, to me, that means that you have an idea what the person's Psych Lims are and can use that to your advantage.* This means you either have a KS: Supers and make it well enough to get a good "scouting report" or you have enough Telepathy to read his/her mind and figure out what to say. Then you can get +1 die for each 5 points the Psych Lim is worth(max of +4 Dice)

[Mike W]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

Thanks' date=' everyone. Some things to chew on. You guys are good.The problem is how do you do a "cool customer"; someone whose presence is more than just being big, or godlike, or in a battlesuit, but without just jacking their PRE up to beyond-human, unrealistic levels? Where even a supervillain takes a step back to assess the situation. I mean, my PC is James Bond, not Batman. He has a PRE aside from his score even though he's only 6 feet tall and under 200 lbs. But to raise his PRE to 30, so that even the Doctor Nos and Ernst Stavro Blofelds take at least some notice (and the thugs flee), is not appropriate. He needs some other mechanism to simulate it.PRE is one of those characteristics I wish they'd better define in 6th edition. What applies to PRE from the rules applied to other characteristics or powers? What doesn't apply? For instance, is there "Armor Piercing" PRE?[/quote']There are a couple options for PRE Defense(so to speak) but the usual option is to buy PRE with a -1 Limitation Only For Defense. Side Note: Batman gets HUGE modifiers. His dive out of the dark sky to land next to a guy often gets him +6 dice worth of modifiers. That means a 20 PRE is enough to turn normal thugs into quivering piles of goo who will do anything he says.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

* I have a mental image of an Ah-nuld type posing and flexing his muscles' date=' and the victim being knocked though a wall. [/quote']This, I think, would be PRE with the Does Knockback Advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

The problem is how do you do a "cool customer"; someone whose presence is more than just being big' date=' or godlike, or in a battlesuit, but without just jacking their PRE up to beyond-human, unrealistic levels? Where even a supervillain takes a step back to assess the situation. I mean, my PC is James Bond, not Batman. He has a PRE aside from his score even though he's only 6 feet tall and under 200 lbs. But to raise his PRE to 30, so that even the Doctor Nos and Ernst Stavro Blofelds take at least some notice (and the thugs flee), is not appropriate. He needs some other mechanism to simulate it.[/quote']

 

Why is PRE not appropriate? From your description, his presence is such that "even a supervillain takes a step back to assess the situation", so he has the offensive PRE to launch a successful PRE attack against a superhuman.

 

Like everything else in Hero, PRE can have a variety of SFX. It could be that he's big, or godlike, or in a battlesuit. Or it could be that he's only 6 feet tall and under 200 lbs, but he simply is impressive. Adolf Hitler wasn't much to look at, nor was Winston Churchill. High PRE does not have to equate to scary-looking, or even unusual looking. Some people are very impressive, not by being physically imposing, but because they are skilled wordsmiths, passionate speakers or good orators. They are still impressive. They have high PRE.

[Sean Waters]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

PRE is, IMO, a very blunt tool.

 

However, I think you can refine it a little. James Bond has a high PRE - he tends to egt noticed when he walks into a room - but part of that, at least, is because he dresses to kill (so to speak) and has that style/confidence about him.

 

So:

 

Normally 15-20 PRE

 

Plus: Style/dress sense +10 PRE

Only for a good first impression -1

Only to 'attack' -1

Only to PRE/EGO+10 level at most -1/2

Instant -1/2

 

Call it a talent and cost it at 2 points.

 

For a very different character, using a very similar idea:

 

Psycho +10 PRE

Only to cause fear/worry -1

Only to 'attack' -1

Only to PRE/EGO+10 level at most -1/2

Instant -1/2

 

Call it a talent and cost it at 2 points.

 

The instant, BTW, reflects the fact that it is not 'always on' but requires a certain amount of preperation, ceremony or situation to work - it has to be consciously used.

[SteveZilla]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

This' date=' I think, would be PRE with the [i']Does Knockback[/i] Advantage.

 

As I mentioned in my post. Also, it's an example power in 5ER, p257.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

As I mentioned in my post. Also' date=' it's an example power in 5ER, p257.[/quote']So it is.

 

Just in case Steve Long is monitoring this thread, I'd like to mention that this would be a wonderful thing to see in the next Champions enemies book.

[ghost-angel]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

I personally would not let Find Weakness work against PRE, because there is not "Defensive Power" to work against. I don't count PRE; Only Vs Attacks as a Defense, just a Limited Characteristic.

 

If you want to reduce someones PRE use a PRE Drain or PRE Suppress.

[Kdansky]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

I still prefer the different +PRE approaches, but what about this:

 

Analyze (Presence Weakness): 3 points for INT-based skil roll.

 

GM tells you according to your roll what might work best as a presence attack.

 

And if you think having 30 Presence is way too obvious:

+1 Invisible Power Effects. Now if he does not speak, it's not there. If he says something, everything is baffled and cannot quite place why they are. But I think this is cumbersome. It's not like you can not "deactivate" 20 of your presence and run around with 10, is it? You can also only use 10 STR if you have 50. Or use seans approach with "Instant".

[ghost-angel]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

I've always allowed the voluntary lowering of Characteristics, for the same reason I don't force people to use all their STR all the time - Characteristics don't have the Always On Limitation.

[Kdansky]

Re: PRE Attack Find Weakness?

 

I've always allowed the voluntary lowering of Characteristics' date=' for the same reason I don't force people to use all their STR all the time - Characteristics don't have the Always On Limitation.[/quote']

 

On that topic: Would you allow an always on limitation on them? I probably would not, usually (Str might be an exception, but then that's more of a physical disad: "No fine manipulation."). I mean: What is the disadvantage to having 30 Con, Always on?