Why divide by 5?

[Sean Waters]

So, I was thinking, we do this slightly odd thing: combat values are based on CHA/3 and skill values on CHA/5. Why?

 

Well, part of the point is, I suppose, that we tend to do things in 5s in Hero. Also, if you divide by 3, then 20/3=7, whereas 20/5 is only 4: that is a pretty big change in the level of skill available to humans.

 

Yes, but...I'm using 20 as it is the NCM breakpoint.

 

What if (work with me) we reduced the NCM breakpoint to 15. Characteristics over 15 cost 2x. You could even decide that there are multiple NCM breakpoints: say over 20 characteristics cost 3x.

 

But why change at all?

 

Well, three reasons I can think of:

 

1. Consistency - CV and skills would work off the same system.

2. Base skills would then be 1 point for 8-, and 8, not 9, would be the base level you add characteristic bonuses to. I never really did understand that either (except it needed to be that way to work). That would mean a 8- skill is 1 point and for three points you add CHA/3 (so 11- for starting heroes). You COULD preserve the CHA/5 thing if you wanted: for 2 points you get 8+CHA/5.

3. A point in a characteristic would mean more, and you'd have smaller gaps between bonuses.

4. It makes quite good logical sense, if you use the amended NCM progression: when you are first learning a skill, your natural ability (base characteristic) is most important, but as you progress it beceomes less so.

 

Logical progression. Greater internal consistency. Hmm.

 

What do you think?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

Just a math minigame.

 

Skills get a base of 9 + 10/5 = 2 = 11-

CV is 10/3 = 3, base of 11, opposed by 3 = 11-

 

You could do it 9 + char/5 but then the defender would need to make an opposed CV roll against every attack which would slow combat and add volatility.

[Ganesh]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

On the other side, I once (in a fit of frustration at breakpoint rounding) considered making it so attributes could only be bought in multiples of 5. CV and ECV were based on (characteristic/5), but every +5 dex also got you a 5-point combat skill level, and every 5 points of ego a 5-point ego combat skill level. This had the problem that non-mentalists, having nothing else to do with their ego combat levels, would put them all into defense all the time. I hadn't worked out a non-kludgy way of fixing that.

 

 

If you divide the average stat by 5, this then means that it's added directly to all skill rolls, gives you that much PD or ED or rec, etc.

 

You also wind up with a normal range of 2, 3, or 4 for normal characteristics.

 

You can do the white-wolf thing, if you want a gentile but ever-increasing disincentive for NCM characters to buy high characteristics.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

I'd certainly like to see it go one way or the other: all CHA/5 or all CHA/3. My preference would be CHA/3, personally, but then I'd like to see an overhaul of the skill system so that it works more like the combat system anyway.

 

OTOH, damage goes up in 5 point increments, so there is some 'pressure' to go with CHA/5. Of course it would also be nice to find something to do with the 'tweener' points: DEX has a built in differentiation - each point can affect combat order. It would be nice to find something for the other characteristic filler points to do, or we might as well just divide the whole system by 5 and play with smaller numbers.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

I'd certainly like to see it go one way or the other: all CHA/5 or all CHA/3. My preference would be CHA/3, personally, but then I'd like to see an overhaul of the skill system so that it works more like the combat system anyway.

 

OTOH, damage goes up in 5 point increments, so there is some 'pressure' to go with CHA/5. Of course it would also be nice to find something to do with the 'tweener' points: DEX has a built in differentiation - each point can affect combat order. It would be nice to find something for the other characteristic filler points to do, or we might as well just divide the whole system by 5 and play with smaller numbers.

 

Fuzion what?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

Fuzion what?

 

Well, quite.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

Actually, to be honest, the one thing I liked about Fuzion was the /5 numbers it was dealing with. The implementation was shaky, but the idea itself had merit IMO. The main downside is you lose granularity, but on the other hand it streamlines things quite a bit and makes for a more "regular" model.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

Personally, if a change were to be made (a giant IF) - I'd go to /3 for the granularity.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

So' date=' I was thinking, we do this slightly odd thing: combat values are based on CHA/3 and skill values on CHA/5. Why?[/quote']I used to wonder about this too. Then, at a DunDraCon about 15 years ago, I asked George MacDonald why they'd chosen to make the two different. I was honestly pretty surprised by his reply. He said, "To bug this guy named Sean Waters."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

I used to wonder about this too. Then, at a DunDraCon about 15 years ago, I asked George MacDonald why they'd chosen to make the two different. I was honestly pretty surprised by his reply. He said, "To bug this guy named Sean Waters."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Damn him and his prescience.

[Jaxom]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

I get wanting a single uniform set of rules... I played 2nd Edition D&D for long enough that I think HERO *is* a drastic simplification... But I can understand going to something simpler...

 

There is another fundamental question that goes into this that you have not raised... What regime do you play in? A 25/25 campaign with NCM in place differs hugely from a 200/150 supers campaign. Whatever ratio you pick, somewhere out there at high enough power a typical Super is going to be 18- in a lot of skills for a point. In a 350 point campaign, DEX goes up to 35... A DEX-hound gets to juggle chainsaws at 16- for a few points (using CHA/5). Does anyone care? Change to CHA/3 and even if you go to 8 as the base, it only takes a DEX of 23 to get a 16- to juggle chainsaws. Now I care a *lot*.

 

5 or 3 seems arbitrary, especially if you are going to shift the initial value around 11, 9 or 8.... So ask yourself... When does the skill become automatic? What is the threshhold that *does* matter?

[Gadodel]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

So, I was thinking, we do this slightly odd thing: combat values are based on CHA/3 and skill values on CHA/5. Why?

 

 

 

?

 

To frighten away the weak. You know, those that fear doing just a little bit of math.

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

I get wanting a single uniform set of rules... I played 2nd Edition D&D for long enough that I think HERO *is* a drastic simplification... But I can understand going to something simpler...

 

There is another fundamental question that goes into this that you have not raised... What regime do you play in? A 25/25 campaign with NCM in place differs hugely from a 200/150 supers campaign. Whatever ratio you pick, somewhere out there at high enough power a typical Super is going to be 18- in a lot of skills for a point. In a 350 point campaign, DEX goes up to 35... A DEX-hound gets to juggle chainsaws at 16- for a few points (using CHA/5). Does anyone care? Change to CHA/3 and even if you go to 8 as the base, it only takes a DEX of 23 to get a 16- to juggle chainsaws. Now I care a *lot*.

 

5 or 3 seems arbitrary, especially if you are going to shift the initial value around 11, 9 or 8.... So ask yourself... When does the skill become automatic? What is the threshhold that *does* matter?

 

Of course, in a superhero campaign, it may well be that it would be appropriate for someone with 23 DEX to be able to juggle chainsaws. Hell, in a heroic campaign they probably could, or should be able to: superheroic characters regularly dodge laser beams, so I have no problem with the idea that they have 18- skills. Of course they should also be facing superhuman challenges: 30 INT is all well and good, and provides a roll of 18- for your computer programming skill, but then the supercomputer you are trying to hack should be imposing penalties that would make it impossible for most normal INT humans to crack it anyway: in the -8 to -10 region.

 

We don't really up the level of skill challenge that much in superheroic games, and maybe we should.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

Actually' date=' to be honest, the one thing I liked about Fuzion was the /5 numbers it was dealing with. The implementation was shaky, but the idea itself had merit IMO. The main downside is you lose granularity, but on the other hand it streamlines things quite a bit and makes for a more "regular" model.[/quote']

 

The original DC Heroes game had an exponential scale and characteristics (and powers) increased 1 point ata time. It didn't work for me for various reasons but it was a really nice idea very well impliemnted.

 

As to granularity, we don't really have it now for some characteristics, just the illusion of it: there is no practical difference between 15 INT and 16 INT in Hero.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

To frighten away the weak. You know, those that fear doing just a little bit of math.

 

 

So perhaps I should introduce the idea that we divide by pi after all

[Kdansky]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

You don't have to change the NCM, you can also adapt the point where skills start (namely 9+ CHA/5 to 7 (?) + CHA /3). I would like that more, gives more granularity. Disadvantage: Supers get ridiculous skills. Perhaps that's the reason: Assuming certain "usual" values, you get bad numbers for either one or the other. Consider a speedster with 27 dex (not much). All rolls are currently 14-, but would then be 18-. Go from "I get -3 circumstance modifier and it will be a close call" to "I can take anything up to -4 and not even flinch about it".

 

Just helping with the brainstorm.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

The original DC Heroes game had an exponential scale and characteristics (and powers) increased 1 point ata time. It didn't work for me for various reasons but it was a really nice idea very well impliemnted.

 

I remember reading DC Heroes and thinking that there was something familiar about a structure where every point doubles the ability, and baseline normals had stats of 2. hmmm...if we multiply that by 5, we get a system where base normals have stats of 10 and every 5 points doubles the ability.

 

The mechanics in DC Heroes were somewhat different, however. That daid, I don't thinkl a blast that inficted 1 damage to Superman on one hit removed all the rest of his damage absorbing capacity on the next hit.

 

Mechanically, if the first hit reduced his capacity to absorb damage by 1, it must have reduced it by 50%. Logivcally, the next hit should take out the other 50%, leaving nothing. However, I don't see a system where any two hits that inflict appreciable damage = character down is going to be very playable.

 

As to granularity' date=' we don't really have it now for some characteristics, just the illusion of it: there is no practical difference between 15 INT and 16 INT in Hero.[/quote']

 

True. You can force the issue with house rules at the cost of some extra die rolling. I've posted on this before. For INT, I would use the following addendum to the rules:

 

- when you roll an INT roll that fails by 1 (eg. a 13 for INT 13 - 17), subtract your INT from the breakpoint for your roll (you needed a 12-, for which the breakpoint was INT 13). Roll a d6. If the number on the d6 is equal to or less than the difference between your INT and the breakpoint, the roll succeeds.

 

Thus, with a 15 INT, a roll of 13 will succeed 1/3 of the time, and it will succeed half the time with an INT of 16. The point whore with 13 INT never succeeds on a roll of 13.

 

Voila - granularity. Small increases in the likelihod of success for every incemental INT point.

 

You could speed the process up by rolling four dice, one being a different colour and relevant only if you miss the roll by 1.

 

However, this would doubtless make Hero too comoplex for 98% of the population, as it would require subtracting

[Fedifensor]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

I'd prefer to leave skills at 9 + CHA/5, but make skill levels a bit cheaper to compensate. Even at CHA/5 (heck, even when going over NCM), it's generally more cost-effective to buy up the stat than the skills based on that stat. It should only cost 1 pt to buy up the roll by 1 on a single skill, given that the skill only costs 3 points to begin with.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

It's only more cost effective to buy the Characteristic based on the Skill if you have four or more Skills that use it.

 

Assuming just one level above base 11-

1 Skill = 2pts / +1 (Total Buy In: 5pts)

2 Skills = 4pts / +1 (Total Buy In: 10pts)

3 Skills = 3pts / +1 (Skill Levels) (Total Buy In: 12pts)

4 Skills = 5pts / +1 (Characteristic buy in or Skill Levels) (Total Buy In: 17pts)

Above 4 just add +3 Points/Skill to the Total Buy In for a total cost factor.

 

2pts/Level seems fair to me honestly. It could be thought of (as long as we're over thinking the situation): Skill (3pts); Only to Raise Level (-1/2)

[Jaxom]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

Of course, in a superhero campaign, it may well be that it would be appropriate for someone with 23 DEX to be able to juggle chainsaws. Hell, in a heroic campaign they probably could, or should be able to: superheroic characters regularly dodge laser beams, so I have no problem with the idea that they have 18- skills. Of course they should also be facing superhuman challenges: 30 INT is all well and good, and provides a roll of 18- for your computer programming skill, but then the supercomputer you are trying to hack should be imposing penalties that would make it impossible for most normal INT humans to crack it anyway: in the -8 to -10 region.

 

We don't really up the level of skill challenge that much in superheroic games, and maybe we should.

 

The point I was trying to make is that with the proposed CHA/3 system it is not a superheroic environment that yields Chainsaw Juggling for a point... It is DEX of 23. Your proposal of 8+CHA/3 means that anyone with a 23 stat is going to have a 16- on normal skill rolls. In other words, an olympic class athlete learns *any* DEX based skill for one point. Any Mensa level intellect learns any science for 1 point.

 

I agree, based on humans doing it today, that anyone should be able to learn to juggle chainsaws. What I think you'll find though is that nobody learns it in a week.... That's what spending points for more levels in the skill is all about.

 

So back to what I said before... The number you are discussing is just an arbitrary multiplier. What it effectively does is determine how big CHA has to be to make a skill arbitrarily easy. With CHA/5 that number is 33+, with CHA/3 it is 20+ unless you change the starting point for skills. Ignoring your desire to have a simple system where everything uses the same number, what CHA value should make skills trivial?

[Fedifensor]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

It's only more cost effective to buy the Characteristic based on the Skill if you have four or more Skills that use it.

 

Aside from the fact that any skill-based character is likely to have four or more skills that use their favored stat (Int for knowledge characters, Pre for social characters, etc), the stats give you more than just skill boosts...

 

5 pts of Int equals +1 to all Int-based skills and +1 PER Roll. Which means that one skill lets you break even.

5 pts of Pre equals +1 to all Pre-based skills, +1d6 Presence attack, and 5 points of "Presence defense". How many skills lets you break even depends on the value that you assign to the other benefits.

 

Dexterity is an even better deal, but that's because the stat is used for OCV, DCV, initiative order, and the figured characteristic of Speed.

 

2 pts/level seems overpriced to me. I've never bought up a single skill - skill levels that affect multiple skills (especially overall skill levels) are a MUCH better value.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

Aside from the fact that any skill-based character is likely to have four or more skills that use their favored stat (Int for knowledge characters, Pre for social characters, etc), the stats give you more than just skill boosts...

 

5 pts of Int equals +1 to all Int-based skills and +1 PER Roll. Which means that one skill lets you break even.

5 pts of Pre equals +1 to all Pre-based skills, +1d6 Presence attack, and 5 points of "Presence defense". How many skills lets you break even depends on the value that you assign to the other benefits.

 

Dexterity is an even better deal, but that's because the stat is used for OCV, DCV, initiative order, and the figured characteristic of Speed.

 

2 pts/level seems overpriced to me. I've never bought up a single skill - skill levels that affect multiple skills (especially overall skill levels) are a MUCH better value.

 

All the other stuff that Char give you aside.

 

+5 Skill Level: Intellect Skills also raises your PER.

 

I have bought up single skills on numerous occasions, and I have characters with only 1-2 Skills based on a particular Characteristic.

 

From the numerous Heroic Level games I've played you have a very narrow band before you hit NCM where Characteristics are a good value. After that Skill Levels (of any sort, from a single skill to the 5pt level, and especially the 10pt Overall SL) quickly take over and become the better deal.

 

Lowering the cost of raising a skill one level would cause serious problems.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

It's only more cost effective to buy the Characteristic based on the Skill if you have four or more Skills that use it.

 

Assuming just one level above base 11-

1 Skill = 2pts / +1 (Total Buy In: 5pts)

2 Skills = 4pts / +1 (Total Buy In: 10pts)

3 Skills = 3pts / +1 (Skill Levels) (Total Buy In: 12pts)

4 Skills = 5pts / +1 (Characteristic buy in or Skill Levels) (Total Buy In: 17pts)

Above 4 just add +3 Points/Skill to the Total Buy In for a total cost factor.

 

2pts/Level seems fair to me honestly. It could be thought of (as long as we're over thinking the situation): Skill (3pts); Only to Raise Level (-1/2)

 

Aside from the fact that any skill-based character is likely to have four or more skills that use their favored stat (Int for knowledge characters, Pre for social characters, etc), the stats give you more than just skill boosts...

 

5 pts of Int equals +1 to all Int-based skills and +1 PER Roll. Which means that one skill lets you break even.

5 pts of Pre equals +1 to all Pre-based skills, +1d6 Presence attack, and 5 points of "Presence defense". How many skills lets you break even depends on the value that you assign to the other benefits.

 

Dexterity is an even better deal, but that's because the stat is used for OCV, DCV, initiative order, and the figured characteristic of Speed.

 

2 pts/level seems overpriced to me. I've never bought up a single skill - skill levels that affect multiple skills (especially overall skill levels) are a MUCH better value.

 

Of course, my cost analysis is based on the CHAR costing 1/level.

 

From a strict "raising my Skill Levels" point of view, most Characteristics are a terrible buy compared to Skill Levels.

 

To get +1 to all DEX Based Skills with just the DEX Characteristics costs 9pts or 15pts (based on raising to either 13 or 15, we'll use round numbers for now). But +1 to all DEX Skills costs 5pts (1/3 the cost) and +1 to 3 DEX Skills costs 3pts (1/5 the cost) and raising 1 DEX Skill costs 2pts (~1/8 the cost).

 

Assuming you're DEX Skill Set looks something like this: Breakfall, Stealth, Shadowing (a good set for a Super who doesn't reply on DEX Skills as his primary Skill set, say the Mentalist) the only reason they're raising their DEX Score is to act higher on the DEX Chain for a Segment, and DCV.

 

If they're primarily worried about raising their Skills then DEX itself is an exceptionally poor choice to spend points on.

 

From experience of factoring in Games and Concepts and Game Balance, 2pt/+1 Skill Roll is a good number.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

2pts/Level seems fair to me honestly. It could be thought of (as long as we're over thinking the situation): Skill (3pts); Only to Raise Level (-1/2)

So, to get +1 to a skill, you're basically buying the entire skill again? That doesn't make any sense. Why would you pay 2/3rds of the cost of a skill for a meager +1, when you can spend a few more points and get +1 with lots of skills (through broader skill levels or raising a characteristic)?

 

All the other stuff that Char give you aside.

 

+5 Skill Level: Intellect Skills also raises your PER.

Maybe I'm not up to speed on 5ER, but I didn't see that under Skill Levels. Reference?

 

I have bought up single skills on numerous occasions, and I have characters with only 1-2 Skills based on a particular Characteristic.

I have yet to see it, either in Heroic or Superheroic level games. The players generally want to have a broader area of competence, which makes skill levels for multiple skills or a higher characteristic a much better value for the points.

 

From the numerous Heroic Level games I've played you have a very narrow band before you hit NCM where Characteristics are a good value. After that Skill Levels (of any sort, from a single skill to the 5pt level, and especially the 10pt Overall SL) quickly take over and become the better deal.

Granted, I come from a history of superhero games (as I was playing Champions before the heroic-level game existed), but NCM is a kludge added onto the system. Regardless, as few GMs will let you go past NCM for a strictly mechanical benefit, let's talk about the "normal" range. What incentive is there to purchase levels in a single skill instead of having the stats those skills are based on near the characteristics maximum (if there is one)?

 

Virtually all skills listed in 5ER which are based on a Characteristic are based on Intelligence (25, if you count Knowledge, Profession, and Science as one skill each instead of an endless number), Presence (12), or Dexterity (12).

 

Intelligence-based skills are an amazingly good value. Even going with your theory that it takes having four skills to "break even"...it's ridiculously easy for any character to have more than that amount. Heck, characters with Scholar are likely to hit that number with just Knowledge skills!

 

Presence-based skills, while far fewer, are the sort where a group's social character is very likely to have four or more. Conversation, Persuasion, and Oratory are no-brainers for the social character, with other Presence skills added based on the character's focus (High Society for nobility, Streetwise for poor or "street-level" characters, etc).

 

Several Dexterity-based skills are combat-oriented (Breakfall, Fast-Draw, and Teamwork being examples of this) and thus may appeal to a wide variety of characters. In addition, the classic "thief" character is likely to have several of these skills (Climbing, Lockpicking, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth are basically required, with Acrobatics, Breakfall, and Contortionist quite common as well).

 

Dexterity does happen to be the one area where it's not 1 pt/level. But the amount of benefits you get from a few points of Dexterity is staggering, and has spawned many discussions on these boards. First off, just adding in the figured value of Speed drops it to effectively 2 pts/level - who doesn't buy up Speed enough to justify this? Second, every 3 points of DEX (which costs 9 pts) is like having two 5-pt combat levels (one in OCV, and one in DCV)...that alone pays for the cost to increase it. Every 6 points in DEX (costing 18 pts) is a guaranteed +1 to all Dex-based skills (and +2 if you manage to hit a breakpoint), +2 OCV, +2 DCV, +0.6 SPD, and 6 points of Lightning Reflexes. While some of those benefits are overpriced in my opinion, it's pretty telling that the benefits of 18 character points would cost 37 points if purchased separately.

 

Lowering the cost of raising a skill one level would cause serious problems.

Why? It's not that hard to adjust things to keep it balanced. Here's a sample of how it could be rebalanced:

* 1 pt - +1 with a single skill

* 2 pts - +1 with three related skills

* 4 pts - +1 with a group of similar skills

* 7 pts - +1 with all noncombat skills

* 10 pts - +1 Overall Level (as these are already too effective, the cost should not be reduced)

 

Does this make it easier to spike a single skill? Sure. But you're still limited by several factors. First, HERO rarely hangs the outcome of things on a single skill. Most times I'm asked to do things out of combat, I'm asked to roll multiple skills - Stealth to sneak past the guard, Security Systems to disable the alarm, Lockpicking to open the lock, PER roll to spot the other guard walking down the hall, etc. Second, the GM still has the right to say how far you can buy up a skill. Third...powers often trump skills. A high Disguise roll may make you virtually undetectable, but someone with sufficient points in Enhanced Senses can see past the disguise (noticing that your smell doesn't match, for example). Shape Shift, however, can be bought to fool any sense. Finally, there is the "Rule of 18" - an 18 always fails, no matter how good you are.

 

One final note on skill levels - you can only have them in one thing at a time. So if you're making a Science skill roll, and using related sciences as complementary skill rolls, your level can only go in one at a time (presumably the main roll). A boost to the stat boosts ALL of the skills at once.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why divide by 5?

 

One final note on skill levels - you can only have them in one thing at a time. So if you're making a Science skill roll' date=' and using related sciences as complementary skill rolls, your level can only go in one at a time (presumably the main roll). A boost to the stat boosts ALL of the skills at once.[/quote']

 

Likewise buying up a single skill allows it to be applied at all times.

 

Obviously our experiences differ, and I'll leave it at that.