Regeneration

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

Agreed 1 Body regen is not that useful' date=' but then that is only a 10 point power, or thereabouts - we can't expect much of it. If you bought it as a major power/defence - say 60 points, so that you could actually heal significant damage in a combat it certainly would make a big difference: perhaps not 5x as useful, but certainly more than a 1/4 limitation difference.[/quote']

 

1 BOD regen is pretty useful if you expect to take a bit of BOD in every combat. You'll recover that BOD in moments, compared to the character who recovers that BOD over a period of weeks or months after the adventure is done.

 

Given the choice between 60 points spend on Regen (assume that's 6 - 8 BOD per turn, depending on which model we're using to price it) and 60 points on +15 PD, 10 Resistant, +15 ED, 10 Resistant and 20 on exotic defenses, which do you think will make a more powerful character?

 

The Regen guy has an advantage against exotic attacks that inflict BOD (and which the other guy didn't invest any of his 20 points into defending), but that's about his only advantage. If he's taking 2 BOD per phase, and assuming 3-4 Speeds, he gets that lost BOD back at the end of the turn. The guy with the extra defenses likely took no BOD, since he has vastly more defenses, and toook far less, or no, Stun to boot.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Regeneration

 

I'm with Hugh on this one. Regeneration looks like a defense, but isn't a very good one. In combat terms, it is frequently negligible. It's more of a perk than a power, especially since it is so advantaged that it runs into active point caps long before it achieves meaningful defensive utility.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration

 

In Superheroic games, regeneration is often only bought as a decoration or because you have deliberately reduced resistant defence to enable the odd bit of Body damage to get through. It is very rare IME for 'normal' superheroic characters (i.e. not the unarmoured martial artist) to take BODY damage. Even then they usually have a high enough BODY that it causes few problems, and in a superpowered world, enhanced healing through technology or powers is not uncommon anyway: taking Body damage is a matter of choice, or at least concept.

 

In Heroic games, regeneration is astonishingly useful because Body damage is not at all uncommon, even the 1 point wonder is going to feel the benefit (especially if you allow it to heal limbs too so they don't need to worry about impairment and disabling, and possibly stop bleeding too...). Mind you, you might be hard pressed to justify this sort of instant healing in many Heroic games anyway...

 

The point I make though, and I appreciate that my initial use of hyperbole may have given a different impression, is that I still think that recovering 1 body per turn is worth more than a 2 point difference to recovering it per minute. I'm not saying 1 Body per minute is not useful; it is. I am saying that PROPORTIONALLY, 1 Body per turn is worth more than a 2 point in a 10 point power/20% difference.

 

In fact, this is one of the weaknesses of the point based system, in some ways: heroic games don't really differentiate in cost except on extreme characteristics. Perhaps the NCM mutiplier should extend to powers (other than equipment) to reflect the relative rarity value, and increased situational utility.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Regeneration

 

I don't see what the big deal is. Other than the fact that the 5th Regen build violates its own rules, as Hugh pointed out, the bottom line is that 4th Ed Regen cost 10 points per BODY, and 5th Ed Regen costs 7 points per BODY. IMO, 10 points was too expensive, and 7 is about right.

 

And following Hugh's logic, we can go back and correct the build by costing it according to 2/3 of a Standard Effect die, and with an Advantage that allows us to ignore the re-use issue, arriving at a consistant build with the same cost. And if you think 7 points is too cheap, you can increase the value of the "re-usable" advantage to make it come out to 10 points if you want.

 

It seems to me that once the power is built, the only issue is, do you want it to cost 10 points or 7 points?

 

Having Regeneration didn’t stop someone from inventing Healing.

I think that is because it's easier to modify Healing to make Regeneration than to modify Regeneration to make Healing. It just seems more logical and intuitive to work in that direction.

 

Hyper Man, in the days before Healing was invented, and even afterwards among those of us who were unimpressed with Healing, we HAD characters with Regeneration Usable On Others. I don’t remember them crashing any games.

And while this worked somewhat, the cost what somewhat out of whack, and the mechanics didn't quite work as a true "healing" power should. Giving someone else the ability to Regenerate didn't quite work the same way as laying on hands and healing someone else's wounds. And there was also the issue of not being able to use it on anything other than BODY. Sure, you could buy REC, UOO, which would expand the list of healable things to BODY, STUN, and END, but you still couldn't heal anything else.

 

Perhaps the “Regeneration as Advantaged REC” exercise is mainly useful to show that the original cost of 10 points per point was right.

I don't see how it shows that at all. Since characters don't all have the same REC, they'll be paying different amounts for the Advantage. Where does the bottom line of "10 points" come back in?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

I don't see what the big deal is. Other than the fact that the 5th Regen build violates its own rules, as Hugh pointed out, the bottom line is that 4th Ed Regen cost 10 points per BODY, and 5th Ed Regen costs 7 points per BODY. IMO, 10 points was too expensive, and 7 is about right.

 

And following Hugh's logic, we can go back and correct the build by costing it according to 2/3 of a Standard Effect die, and with an Advantage that allows us to ignore the re-use issue, arriving at a consistant build with the same cost. And if you think 7 points is too cheap, you can increase the value of the "re-usable" advantage to make it come out to 10 points if you want.

 

It seems to me that once the power is built, the only issue is, do you want it to cost 10 points or 7 points?

 

In the middle, it costs about 8.5 per die if you use the +1 1/2 advantage for "reuse once per turn", which was not in 5th Ed (when regen was designed) but was added in 5er. In my opinion, "it's worth about 10/8.5/7 points per BOD" is more gut feel than strict analysis. What's it compared to?

 

In my view, it's properly compared to the cost of healing, self only, which very much supports building it with that power.

 

I don't see how it shows that at all. Since characters don't all have the same REC' date=' they'll be paying different amounts for the Advantage. Where does the bottom line of "10 points" come back in?[/quote']

 

I think you're misreading the alternate approach here. As I understand it, the logic is that I buy 1 point REC to "per Turn" as a naked advantage, which would be [month; week; day; 6 hr; 1 hr; 20 min; 5 min; 1 min; 1 turn - 8 steps down the chart] a +4 advantage at +1/2 per increment, so 8 points plus 2 for REC in the first place = 10. I'm missing something here - I thought the theory was that the acceleration alone cost 10 points!?!

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Regeneration

 

I get exactly 8.5 per BODY with my build:

 

Regeneration: Healing BODY 8d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) = Real 102

 

I think using Healing is more consistent, especially if staying within the confines of the rules (note the Decreased reuse duration). It also means that for purposes of adjustment powers, Regeneration is a Healing power and thus any adjustments to that power would not only affect healers, but Wolverine as well. Stylistically that makes sense to me.

 

I also agree that the build for Regen is far more complicated than it probably should be. One the one hand, when designing a character we simply want to "take Regen" and add it to the character. On the other hand I think it is important for the power to balance out with other powers in terms of AP and utility.

 

If we interpret the recovery of BODY at REC/Month to mean 1/week with a REC of 4, then this power would probably be the best solution:

 

Succor REC 1d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1); Self Only (-1/2)

 

And that's just silly. I'd like to see most of the disputed powers as Talents - simple instances of commonly used powers with the caveat that adding power modifiers requires the talent to built as the standard power. Otherwise, here's Regen at multiple levels. Here's the heroic Rapid Healing as well (which I prefer at per day than per hour (3.67 per BODY), and at per day is 2.4 points per BODY).

 

Of course, ultimately, everything reduces to Transform or EDM, so why fight it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration

 

I get exactly 8.5 per BODY with my build:

 

Regeneration: Healing BODY 8d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2) = Real 102

 

.................................

 

Yes. Well.

 

Couple of things:

 

The rampant abuse of the 5th edition regeneration build did not end with the obvious.

 

1. It also introduced the idea of 'persistent' not needing 'constant'. It does, and everyone who thinks differently is wrong. Before anyone quotes the FAQ at me, bear in mind who wrote the regeneration build.

 

2. Given that you can't heal more than once per turn anyway, the extra time limtiation is simply wrong as it does not provide any limitation. This goes double as it is, in practice, always on power anyway (and, even if you allow it the limitation value should therefore be halved).

 

In fact, here's how it pans out, using Healing:

 

Healing BODY 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (90 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2)

 

That's 60 points for 3 BODY healing once per turn, or 20 per point.

 

I have not even gone near the fact that this should probably have IPE, or at least trigger, if you don't want it to be constantly obvious that you have a power turned on, even when you are not recovering from injury. The whole 'constantly roiling flesh, a high pitched whine and the ever present stench of decay' (OK you might not pick those particular sfx, buit still...) might make you stand out in a crowd.

[JmOz]

Re: Regeneration

 

Which we come back to "Let's make REgen it's own powers, if we have 3 ways to buy defences, we certanly can have 2 ways to heal"

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Regeneration

 

Good points. However, I'd point out that with a continuous healing you would max out the dice roll, which isn't limited by the Decreased Re-use Duration. This means, with IPE, we have:

 

Regeneration: Healing BODY 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects, Source Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2); Self Only (-1/2) (Active 50, Real 33)

 

Maxing at 6 cp of BODY that's 11 points per BODY. Works for me and makes more sense too. Thanks, Sean.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Regeneration

 

In the middle, it costs about 8.5 per die if you use the +1 1/2 advantage for "reuse once per turn", which was not in 5th Ed (when regen was designed) but was added in 5er. In my opinion, "it's worth about 10/8.5/7 points per BOD" is more gut feel than strict analysis. What's it compared to?

 

In my view, it's properly compared to the cost of healing, self only, which very much supports building it with that power.

I was agreeing with your analysis. I've done the same analysis myself. Points are compared to points - what else could have been bought for those same 7/8.5/10 points? 1 rPD, 1 rED, 2 PowD = 5 points and prevents 1 BODY from being lots in the first place from most forms of attack (and also defends against STUN loss and other chars/powers Drained/Suppressed). It's the whole "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" thing. IMO, 7 is the most appropriate cost.

 

I think you're misreading the alternate approach here. As I understand it, the logic is that I buy 1 point REC to "per Turn" as a naked advantage, which would be [month; week; day; 6 hr; 1 hr; 20 min; 5 min; 1 min; 1 turn - 8 steps down the chart] a +4 advantage at +1/2 per increment, so 8 points plus 2 for REC in the first place = 10. I'm missing something here - I thought the theory was that the acceleration alone cost 10 points!?!

I must have missed that before. But in this case the 10 points are also giving you the regular benefit of a point of REC, so those last 2 points shouldn't be included (unless you also get a point of REC free with each point of Regen), so it's really only 8 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

I must have missed that before. But in this case the 10 points are also giving you the regular benefit of a point of REC' date=' so those last 2 points shouldn't be included (unless you also get a point of REC free with each point of Regen), so it's really only 8 points.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I spotted that 2 point discrepancy in the middle of my post. Maybe someone from the "reduced time for REC" camp can explain it - my recollection was that you only got the 1 BOD/turn for an extra 10 point cost, not +1 REC to go with it, but I may be misrecalling.

[Comic]

Re: Regeneration

 

Good points. However, I'd point out that with a continuous healing you would max out the dice roll, which isn't limited by the Decreased Re-use Duration. This means, with IPE, we have:

 

Regeneration: Healing BODY 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects, Source Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2); Self Only (-1/2) (Active 50, Real 33)

 

Maxing at 6 cp of BODY that's 11 points per BODY. Works for me and makes more sense too. Thanks, Sean.

I'd suggest, with this truly excellent build, adding the following optional limitation: "-1/4: Restrainable by Means other than Grab" to simulate Regeneration that isn't available if the power is drained/dispelled/suppressed at any point during that full turn, and that extremely poor conditions for regeneration (pushing, GM's discretion, some poisons/diseases, etc.) would stop the healing as well.

 

Which would still be 9 points per BODY. A little under 10, a bit over 8.5 or 7.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration

 

...

 

1. It also introduced the idea of 'persistent' not needing 'constant'. It does, and everyone who thinks differently is wrong. Before anyone quotes the FAQ at me, bear in mind who wrote the regeneration build.

 

 

A FAQ quote is not necessary. Continuous is NOT necessary for this build because Healing is NOT an Attack Power and does not require an Attack Roll when applied to a Self Only ability.

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised - Chapter One 257

 

DURATION ADVANTAGES

Value: +1 for Continuous; +½ for Persistent

(power must already have 0 END cost); +¼ for Inherent (power must already be 0 END, Persistent, and usually Always On)

These Advantages improve a power’s duration.

 

Continuous

Value: +1

This +1 Advantage allows a character to use an Attack Power (or other Instant Power) on a continuing basis without having to make a new Attack Roll every Phase against the same target. In other words, this Advantage converts an Instant Power into a Constant Power, and all rules governing Constant Powers apply to it (see page 98).

 

Persistent

Value: +½

An Instant or Constant Power with this +½ Advantage becomes a Persistent Power — it remains “turned on” even though the character is unconscious. The power must first cost no END, or be bought to Reduced Endurance (0 END). A Persistent Power costs 0 END to maintain, and remains turned on until the character consciously decides to turn it off or dies. (See page 100 for more information on Persistent Powers).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration

 

A FAQ quote is not necessary. Continuous is NOT necessary for this build because Healing is NOT an Attack Power and does not require an Attack Roll when applied to a Self Only ability.

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised - Chapter One 257

 

I probably shouldn't get into this again but healing is an attack power, in that it requires an attack action, and 'self only' is a limitation, not an advantage, so shouldn't be handing out candy. As the French would say: Le Kludge, even if it is in 5ER. Actually they would probably say that last bit in French.

 

Even looking at the bit you quoted, Continuous applies to an attack power or other instant power, so there is a clear conflict between those two paragraphs: they can't both be right UNLESS what it means (the persistent bit) is 'an instant power (to which the continuous advantage has been added) or a constant power....'

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration

 

Good points. However, I'd point out that with a continuous healing you would max out the dice roll, which isn't limited by the Decreased Re-use Duration. This means, with IPE, we have:

 

Regeneration: Healing BODY 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects, Source Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2); Self Only (-1/2) (Active 50, Real 33)

 

Maxing at 6 cp of BODY that's 11 points per BODY. Works for me and makes more sense too. Thanks, Sean.

 

Exellent point: there's no real reason to only heal once per turn/PS12 - that is just habit.

[Comic]

Re: Regeneration

 

So.. which is it that allows re-rolling and adding until Max for the dice is achieved: Continuous (+1), or Cumulative (+1/2), for Mudpyr8's Regen build?

 

Regenerate: Healing 1d6, Reduced END (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), IPE Source Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Cumulative (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2); Self Only (-1/2) (Active 45, Real 30)

 

This would get us to 1 Body/10 Points, would throw in 'free' Stun, and could (I believe) move the character one position up the Recovery chart (as Healing is assistance) for regaining consciousness, if the GM were feeling generous.

 

It even achieves a 30 AP minimum (unless someone wants to fuss with half dice, bleh), so those of us who miss AP minima are happy.

 

Would anyone disallow this build?

 

(Or the additional -1/4 'Restrainable' to require Post-12 before the healed Body shows up, in a Turn without Pushing or other 'extraordinary' interference in the Healing Process?)

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Regeneration

 

Healing itself. The maximum amount that can be healed is the maximum rolled on the dice. Since continuous is applying the power every phase, even using standard effect and SPD 2 you will max out by the end of the turn. Cumulative is inappropriate for the power.

 

I think your -1/4 Restrainable is fine. I wouldn't include it in a basic regen power, but it certainly would work for some characters. Another one would be -1/2 for 1/2 DCV or -1 for 0 DCV (concentrate throughout): not that the character is concentrating, just that he must be resting in some fashion.

 

While the FAQ says that Continuous isn't needed, and Healing is not listed as an Attack Power (5ER 113), Continuous does ensure the max value of healing is applied. In looking over the list of Instant powers, it is about the only one I could see as buying Persistent without buying Continuous since all the other Instant powers are Attack Powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration

 

Regenerate: Healing 1d6, Reduced END (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), IPE Source Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), Cumulative (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2); Self Only (-1/2) (Active 45, Real 30)

 

This would get us to 1 Body/10 Points, would throw in 'free' Stun, and could (I believe) move the character one position up the Recovery chart (as Healing is assistance) for regaining consciousness, if the GM were feeling generous.

 

I don't see the STUN. 1d6 Healing heals 1d6 character points of one attribute, not a group of them. This construct could heal BOD or STUN, but not both.

 

It even achieves a 30 AP minimum (unless someone wants to fuss with half dice' date=' bleh), so those of us who miss AP minima are happy.[/quote']

 

ummm...it's 45 AP at 1d6 with a 30 point real cost.

 

Would anyone disallow this build?

 

(Or the additional -1/4 'Restrainable' to require Post-12 before the healed Body shows up, in a Turn without Pushing or other 'extraordinary' interference in the Healing Process?)

 

I don't see any reason to disallow it once it's clear it heals BOD, not STUN (and as such, I would not allow it to move someone up the REC chart). I doubt I would allow a similar construct working towards STUN, as this would effectively prevent the character being KO'd for extended periods of time, guaranteeing recovery of 6 STUN per turn at the 1d6 level.

[Comic]

Re: Regeneration

 

But.. Healing isn't inherently cumulative, is it? Or have I misread?

 

If I Heal as default, once, I can get 0 Body (1/6: Roll of 1), 1 Body (2/3: Rolls of 2-5), or 2 Body (1/6: Roll 6); (This was where I got confused with the Body/Stun previously, my bad)

 

Or,

 

I can Heal Body, and get 0 Body (1/6: Roll of 1 CP), 1 Body (1/3: Roll 2-3 CP), 2 Body (1/3: Roll 4-5 CP), or 3 Body (1/6: Roll 6 CP)

 

We're opting specifically for the latter option with this build, however:

 

At SPD 2, my odds are:

 

0 BODY=1/36

1 Body=1/3

2 Body=1/3

3 BODY=5/36

 

After two rolls, take the higher of the two results.

 

At 4 SPD or higher, my odds are better, but not perfect, and no SPD guarantees maximum Body.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Regeneration

 

It isn't cumulative, but in the discussion of Maximum Effect on 5ER186 it talks about achieving maximum affect over time through repeated applications. Since it is Continuous I would think that qualifies.

 

Otherwise, the power is more expensive because even with Continuous you would never consistently achieve maximum effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration

 

I probably shouldn't get into this again but healing is an attack power, in that it requires an attack action, and 'self only' is a limitation, not an advantage, so shouldn't be handing out candy. As the French would say: Le Kludge, even if it is in 5ER. Actually they would probably say that last bit in French.

 

Even looking at the bit you quoted, Continuous applies to an attack power or other instant power, so there is a clear conflict between those two paragraphs: they can't both be right UNLESS what it means (the persistent bit) is 'an instant power (to which the continuous advantage has been added) or a constant power....'

 

The power HA (Hand to Hand Attack) is essentially a No Range EB (a Limitation!) that adds to STR damage (something a normal EB can't do).

 

The Continuous Advantage in HERO only applies to powers that target others. Regeneration as is it is being discussed in this thread only applies to the power's owner. Continuous is therefore superfluous.

 

The text does NOT state that Continuous is a prerequisite for Persistent. Steve has been questioned on this in the past and has confirmed that this is not an oversight. If you want to house rule otherwise that's fine but it's not in the core rules.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration

 

In a superheroic game with an average SPD of 6, chances are, with 1d6 'regeneration' (not suing standard values) you will roll a '6' at least once per turn. Higher 'regeneration' powers though are increasingly unlikely to manage max values: 2d6 would only roll a maximum once every 6 turns. A continuous power will continue on every phase, of course.

 

This is a very good fix therefore in respect of 'low level' regeneration, but probably less useful the more powerful the effect you want.

 

30 POINTS: Healing BODY 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (45 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2)

 

At SPD 6, you have a 67% chance of regenerating 3 Body in a turn, and you are almost bound to manage at least 2 (something like 99%). That cuts the effective cost, but, like I say, the randomness rapidly diminishes with higher numbers of dice.

 

The other thing I'd like to mention is this: adding things like 'can heal limbs' and 'resurrection' gets far more complex in a build that relies on construction of a regeneration power, rather than just just a straight point-cost power. I appreciate this is a front end effort, but even so it feels clumsy.

 

Whilst I'm on resurrection - HELLO - there's another kludge for you that rarely gets mentioned: regeneration works even when you are dead, does it, even if you have not bought trigger, or uncontrolled for your regeneration? Cool. Why?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration

 

...

Whilst I'm on resurrection - HELLO - there's another kludge for you that rarely gets mentioned: regeneration works even when you are dead, does it, even if you have not bought trigger, or uncontrolled for your regeneration? Cool. Why?

 

Desolidification lets you walk on floors without falling through them. Why?

 

It's what the powers were designed to do.

 

You're making things too complicated for yourself there Sean.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Regeneration

 

Desolidification lets you walk on floors without falling through them. Why?

 

It's what the powers were designed to do.

 

You're making things too complicated for yourself there Sean.

 

I've noticed he has a preternatural knack for that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration

 

The power HA (Hand to Hand Attack) is essentially a No Range EB (a Limitation!) that adds to STR damage.

 

The text does NOT state that Continuous is a prerequisite for Persistent. Steve has been questioned on this in the past and has confirmed that this is not an oversight. If you want to house rule otherwise that's fine but it's not in the core rules.

 

Oh I accept it is not an oversight. The words '..instant or...' were clearly deliberately added in 5ER (they are not in FRED). However there is no sense behind it. The change in the ruling appears to be a response, largely, to the regeneration build. Unfortunately the rest of the rules were not also modified: look at duration limitaitons, which show the clear progression from persistent to constant to instant. This is echoed elsewhere in the rules too.

 

The fact that it is intentionally in the core rules doesn't mean it should be (see discussion about 'regeneration', above).