PRE Drains

[Vestnik]

Re: PRE Drains

 

It's expensive as hell, but I think this would be a good build for a Mind Flayer-like Mental Blast power:

 

150 Lay Waste to Your Mind: 3d6 DEX, INT, EGO, and PRE Drain, Four Characteristics Simultaneously (+1), Based on Ego Combat Value (Vs. Mental

Defense; +1), Range (Limited Range 20"; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Points Return at the Rate of 5 per Week (+1 1/2)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Hmmm. I was thinking that the best way to make someone more likely to be impressed specifically would be to use transform to add a Psych Lim: Thinks I am brilliant/scary/clever etc" and "Susceptibility to PRE attacks from me"

 

Those would provide very solid bases on which to build. If it was to be generally easy to impress etc then a wider scope for the disads would be relevant.

 

 

Doc

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: PRE Drains

 

A PRE drain with a long recovery time was one of the write ups I had for a Satire in my Epic Irish game back when. Fit the feel of the source materials well without resorting to a Transform (to someone with a bad reputation).

[ghost-angel]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Im not sure where you got the impression that the way to "impress others" is to use a Drain vs PRE. The most direct and side effect free way to accomplish the effect you are talking about is to simply buy more PRE as a Power with appropriate Lims applied to it for the specifics of the shtick you are going for. You can also Aid or Succor PRE if you like, you can also buy one or more interaction skills with extremely high skill rolls, but raw PRE is generally easiest.

 

Alternately, if this isnt an actual power, but just situations in which a character is taken more seriously than others, you should consider the Reputation perk.

 

Personally, I think this is the best approach.

[Tonio]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Suppress and its counterpart Succor don't cap. Drain and its counterpart Aid, do. The "capping" concept makes no sense for Dispel.

 

Suppress and Succor stack (as in you can keep on stacking them without limit). (Ok, so it's a crappy mnemonic... but hey, it's all I could come up with on short notice!)

 

Oops... sorry about this, I was wrong!

 

Anyway, the power I'm talking about is not the power to impress someone, but the power to make someone more impressionable (by anybody or anything). For example, the power to make someone nervous and afraid (but not "flee in terror" afraid). PRE attacks based on fear or startling would be more effective against the target of this power, but not just PRE attacks originated by the power owner, so extra PRE, Reputation, PRE Aids, etc. don't really model the effect properly, I think. Mind Control seems excessive, and appears too "loose" (So if I acheive EGO + 20, how much more effective are PRE attacks against this guy?). Transform is too permanent and long-lasting.

 

If PRE were split into OPRE and DPRE (Offensive and Defensive Presence) -- and please not I'm NOT suggesting this should be done! -- the effect would be perfectly modelled by a DPRE Drain or Suppress, given that only DPRE were used to resist PRE attacks, not EGO.

 

I could be creating a problem where none exists... I just think that having to drain two "defenses" to an attack (EGO and PRE), with the side effect that you drain two offensive capabilities (PRE for PRE Attacks, EGO for OECV), and one additional defense (DECV), seems cumbersome and too broad.

[Maur]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Well, draining the presence makes sense if you are trying to make the person more susceptible to fear. They are easier to startle and surprise and because of that aren't as capable of making others afraid of them, so the drain PRE makes sense from that description.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Since this turned into a discussion about PRE drain, I might as well talk about the PRE drain i once had...

 

I built a character who was supposed to be based off a humiform robot from the Asimov books, who's main attack was to grab his target and then explain to them how what they were doing was not only wrong, but counter-productive. I built it as a PRE drain with incantations and "target must speak same language", It ended up being pretty balanced. Few enemies could resist it, but it didn't stack with the damage anyone else in the party did, and I had to protect my target from all the damage my party members tried to do it him.

[Tonio]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Well' date=' draining the presence makes sense if you are trying to make the person more susceptible to fear. They are easier to startle and surprise and because of that aren't as capable of making others afraid of them, so the drain PRE makes sense from that description.[/quote']

 

Except it doesn't. Or it mightn't, anyway. It won't, if the target's EGO is higher than their PRE. In that case, instead of making them easier to startle and surprise and impress, it makes them less capable of startling, surprising, and impressing others. Which is kinda backwards, I think.

[Sean Waters]

Re: PRE Drains

 

You could build a fear effect with +50 STR. I'd be scared.

 

More sensibly, if you want someone to FEAR YOU then you should do it with increased PRE, maybe mind control or (if you have to) transform*.

 

If you want someone to become fearful generally then use Drain (PRE+EGO) or mind control or (if you have to) transform*.

 

If you do go with the drain, what do people think about a limit 'only against fear effects' to simulate someone who is no more vulnerable to most mental attacks, but anything that plays on fear (or a fear based PRE attack) will have a big effect? What would that be worth? -1/2? -1?

 

One more question. I get hit by a PRE attack. My PRE is 10. The effect is 28 points, so I'm at PRE+10. Cool.

 

If I then gain 3 points of PRE, what happens? Does the PRE attack effect 'break' or readjust to the >PRE level (i.e. I go from 'very impressed' to just 'impressed' ), or something else?

 

 

*I'm not saying these are the only options, just the most generic ones. You might, for instance want to PARALYSE someone with fear, and so build a mental entangle, but that isn't what the tread is about.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: PRE Drains

 

It sounds to me like this still goes back to what KS & I said earlier; yes, you can reduce someone to a quivering mass by draining both PRE & EGO, absolutely. But that's different than "I scare the crap out of 'em" in a one shot die-rolling scenario, which is Aid PRE (or just extra PRE, as KS noted). Like I said; the onus for a PRE attack should be on the attacker. I think this is a really cool power, but it isn't "a PRE attack."

[Tonio]

Re: PRE Drains

 

It sounds to me like this still goes back to what KS & I said earlier; yes' date=' you can reduce someone to a quivering mass by draining both PRE & EGO, absolutely. But that's different than "I scare the crap out of 'em" in a one shot die-rolling scenario, which is Aid PRE (or just extra PRE, as KS noted). Like I said; the onus for a PRE attack should be on the attacker. I think this is a really cool power, but it isn't "a PRE attack."[/quote']

 

Oh certainly! The idea originally stated was NOT a Presence Attack, anymore than an ED Drain is an EB. In fact, that'd be a perfect analogy: the original idea is to Presence Attack what ED Drain is to EB. My gripe was that PRE Drain wouldn't always work (specifically, if EGO is higher than PRE), and that it had potentially unwanted/unwarranted side effects (akin to having ED Drain also drain EB).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Oh certainly! The idea originally stated was NOT a Presence Attack' date=' anymore than an ED Drain is an EB. In fact, that'd be a perfect analogy: the original idea is to Presence Attack what ED Drain is to EB. My gripe was that PRE Drain wouldn't always work (specifically, if EGO is higher than PRE), and that it had potentially unwanted/unwarranted side effects (akin to having ED Drain also drain EB).[/quote']

 

I think I got stuck between the title of the thread and the intent of the design; i.e., that a "PRE Drain" was a "PRE attack," which of course, t'isn't the case. I think the build is valid, though, and with the right explanation of SFX, I'd certainly allow.

 

Shoot, I just might use it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Oops... sorry about this, I was wrong!

 

Anyway, the power I'm talking about is not the power to impress someone, but the power to make someone more impressionable (by anybody or anything). For example, the power to make someone nervous and afraid (but not "flee in terror" afraid). PRE attacks based on fear or startling would be more effective against the target of this power, but not just PRE attacks originated by the power owner, so extra PRE, Reputation, PRE Aids, etc. don't really model the effect properly, I think. Mind Control seems excessive, and appears too "loose" (So if I acheive EGO + 20, how much more effective are PRE attacks against this guy?). Transform is too permanent and long-lasting.

 

If PRE were split into OPRE and DPRE (Offensive and Defensive Presence) -- and please not I'm NOT suggesting this should be done! -- the effect would be perfectly modelled by a DPRE Drain or Suppress, given that only DPRE were used to resist PRE attacks, not EGO.

 

I could be creating a problem where none exists... I just think that having to drain two "defenses" to an attack (EGO and PRE), with the side effect that you drain two offensive capabilities (PRE for PRE Attacks, EGO for OECV), and one additional defense (DECV), seems cumbersome and too broad.

 

PRE Drain is exactly what you want in that case.

 

And in every game I've played, if a Character has had thier PRE Drained specifically to make them more susceptible to PRE Attacks they do NOT get their EGO to defend against it.

[The Monster]

Re: PRE Drains

 

For my Necessary Evil character Darklord, I built a big radius Drain PRE: 4d6. That's not enough to really hamper most supers and bosses; and in fact, since PRE attacks can be resisted either with PRE or EGO, it's certainly not going to scare anyone away. *But* it is enough to drop most normals to less than zero, which invokes the special rules for negative characteristics. Basically, it's a handy way to paralyze the mooks and mass victims, annoy his villainous allies (personal immunity, but regular radius effect!), and just plain look really kewl.

[Tonio]

Re: PRE Drains

 

PRE Drain is exactly what you want in that case.

 

And in every game I've played, if a Character has had thier PRE Drained specifically to make them more susceptible to PRE Attacks they do NOT get their EGO to defend against it.

 

Houserule? If so, sounds like one I'd adopt. If not, where is it?

[Vestnik]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Houserule? If so' date=' sounds like one I'd adopt. If not, where is it?[/quote']

 

I'd be pretty PO'd if I had a character with a high Ego. How many Mentalists have really high PRE? And it does seem like the kind of thing a Mentalist would be good at defending against.

[Kdansky]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Seems like PRE Drain only works if you couple it with EGO. That's only a +1/2 though, and I might just house rule that as +1/4 if I'm feeling generous, since having neutered ego + pre is so rarely of more use than having one destroyed stat (most characters use neither stat much, and mentalists rarely pre attack if they can just mind control), EXCEPT to defend against PRE Attacks, but to get rid of that is what this power is built for.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: PRE Drains

 

I'd be pretty PO'd if I had a character with a high Ego. How many Mentalists have really high PRE? And it does seem like the kind of thing a Mentalist would be good at defending against.

 

Seems like PRE Drain only works if you couple it with EGO. That's only a +1/2 though' date=' and I might just house rule that as +1/4 if I'm feeling generous, since having neutered ego + pre is so rarely of more use than having one destroyed stat (most characters use neither stat much, and mentalists rarely pre attack if they can just mind control), EXCEPT to defend against PRE Attacks, but to get rid of that is what this power is built for.[/quote']

 

I agree with both statements, oddly enough, but I think it's a matter of world design & flavor as much as it a straight mechanical question. I'm actively trying to run my game RAW, barring the odd twist to the VPP model that's required for my setting, and some capping rules, but no major changes to adjustment values, nothing like that. So this attack would work in my game, and the PC with a high EGO (the CLR, and probably the DRU) would both have a decent baseline defense against a straight PRE drain.

 

PRE & EGO drain though? That'll cripple just about anyone who doesn't have PowDef. And I'm fairly certain the only person in my group who has Power Defense at the moment is the Paladin.

[Kdansky]

Re: PRE Drains

 

You're playing DnD in Hero? Now that's what I call messed up

[Tonio]

Re: PRE Drains

 

You're playing DnD in Hero? Now that's what I call messed up

 

I actually LIKE most of the D&D concepts, worlds, etc. It's the system I don't like too much. Some campaign settings are especially good, like Dark Sun.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: PRE Drains

 

You're playing DnD in Hero? Now that's what I call messed up

 

The game originated in d20, and then I broke it. So switching to HERO was originally supposed to be a "conversion," which failed. Two years later, I have my skull around everything and know pretty much exactly what I want to do and how I want to do it. So no, I'm not playing d20 in HERO -- I'm playing HERO, using some borrowings from the d20 system.

[ghost-angel]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Houserule? If so' date=' sounds like one I'd adopt. If not, where is it?[/quote']

 

House rule. There may be a suggestion for it in one of the Power Builds in a book somewhere, can't recall off the top of my head.

 

You can also base it off of SFX. Just because you have a high EGO doesn't mean you can't be scared, or impressed by someone's force of personality.

[Tonio]

Re: PRE Drains

 

House rule. There may be a suggestion for it in one of the Power Builds in a book somewhere, can't recall off the top of my head.

 

You can also base it off of SFX. Just because you have a high EGO doesn't mean you can't be scared, or impressed by someone's force of personality.

 

What about "ruling" (read: suggesting the system be changed ) that PRE is used for attacks (that is, PRE attacks), EGO to defend, always? Not sure that'd work, especially given contested PRE-based skill rolls...

[Vestnik]

Re: PRE Drains

 

 

PRE & EGO drain though? That'll cripple just about anyone who doesn't have PowDef. And I'm fairly certain the only person in my group who has Power Defense at the moment is the Paladin.

 

Ever thought about the dreaded INT Drain?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: PRE Drains

 

Ever thought about the dreaded INT Drain?

 

 

At least one of my players reads this board. I can neither confirm nor deny that I've considered turning them into idiots. Although I believe the spell Hideous Laughter is built as an INT drain, but don't quote me on that.