Tonio Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I have issues with this Advantage/Limitation. It seems to me a static value for this (+/- 1/4) doesn't take into consideration the weight of the "object", making it too dependent on SFX. If I define my RKA as "throwing energy shuriken (which weigh next to nothing)", I'll get a much more effective power than if I define it as "throwing superdense neutronium spheres (which are absurdly heavy)", even though they cost the same. But given that Ranged is a +1/2 Advantage, and No Range is -1/2, there's no space for adjusting the value for heavier/lighter objects. How do you deal with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Spear Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR It mostly works as written but if you feel that an object is able to be thrown too far or not far enough than just change the value of the limitation. Even though it won't be "by the book" if it works than that's all that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR I agree with DS on this; because STR does take into account the weight of object (per the table in 5ER) then a flat -1/4 lim pretty much covers it; it's a variation on "limited range, -1/4" vs. "No Range, -1/2," that's all. Since Range Based on STR still has "some range," it's assumed that you wouldn't use it without some measure of understanding of how far the thing is supposed to go, point being, it's "functionally similar" enough to Limited Range to make no never mind to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonio Posted January 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Hm, true... it's a form of Limited Range. On the other hand, I also dislike the lack of specificity (ok, I made up a word) on Limited Range... a power that can reach 3" away costs the same as if it could reach 30" away? =/ Then again, the system is just too granular to have it be otherwise... 1/2 is full/no range, 0 is normal, so it HAS to be 1/4 for any sort of limited range. =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Hm, true... it's a form of Limited Range. On the other hand, I also dislike the lack of specificity (ok, I made up a word) on Limited Range... a power that can reach 3" away costs the same as if it could reach 30" away? =/ Then again, the system is just too granular to have it be otherwise... 1/2 is full/no range, 0 is normal, so it HAS to be 1/4 for any sort of limited range. =/ Disco, you've got it. And "limited range" for me, when I did my spell conversions, was a ballpark figure based on the total reasonable range the spell is supposed to travel; "Close" became 10", Medium 25", and Long I left alone; bearing in mind that range penalties still apply, the odds of you even hitting a hex with DCV 3 at that distance is... minimal, at best, without serious assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Well, having 9 or 15 charges is also the same advantage, limitation. Correct me on numbers, but you get my point I think I'd go with GM common sense on these for maximum range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonio Posted January 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR I certainly do get your point, Kdansky. It's something that's always irked me about HERO, but I haven't found a satisfactory solution, besides making the whole thing more linear, less granular, by getting rid of Lim/Adv breakpoints, and using straight decimals, so that you could have a -0.230183 Limitation or a +sqrt(3*pi) Advantage. It's just that in the case of Range, it's more evident since there's even less linearity than with Charges. I can certainly foresee problems with less-than-ideal players (e.g. "*whine* But why does my thrown hammer have a shorter reach than his thrown daggers, if we paid the same?!"). =/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR I certainly do get your point, Kdansky. It's something that's always irked me about HERO, but I haven't found a satisfactory solution, besides making the whole thing more linear, less granular, by getting rid of Lim/Adv breakpoints, and using straight decimals, so that you could have a -0.230183 Limitation or a +sqrt(3*pi) Advantage. It's just that in the case of Range, it's more evident since there's even less linearity than with Charges. I can certainly foresee problems with less-than-ideal players (e.g. "*whine* But why does my thrown hammer have a shorter reach than his thrown daggers, if we paid the same?!"). =/ a) because it's lighter because he's stronger c) because you're a candy-ass d) because knives are t3h k3wln3zz!!2141!!!eleven!!21! e) buy more STR f) buy STR, "Only for throwing weapons" g) don't throw your hammer, and it won't matter anyway. I hate whining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR I certainly do get your point, Kdansky. It's something that's always irked me about HERO, but I haven't found a satisfactory solution, besides making the whole thing more linear, less granular, by getting rid of Lim/Adv breakpoints, and using straight decimals, so that you could have a -0.230183 Limitation or a +sqrt(3*pi) Advantage. It's just that in the case of Range, it's more evident since there's even less linearity than with Charges. I can certainly foresee problems with less-than-ideal players (e.g. "*whine* But why does my thrown hammer have a shorter reach than his thrown daggers, if we paid the same?!"). =/ first off: Str is so cheap (haha! I did it again), just buy more Second: Having -0.230183 limitations would be something for Sean I think Hurray, I derailed another thread! On topic: I am also irked by these things, especially charges. Why should I ever have 12 (correct me on the numbers, I'm too lazy to look it up) charges? I can have one more for free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR first off: Str is so cheap (haha! I did it again), just buy more Second: Having -0.230183 limitations would be something for Sean I think Hurray, I derailed another thread! On topic: I am also irked by these things, especially charges. Why should I ever have 12 (correct me on the numbers, I'm too lazy to look it up) charges? I can have one more for free! It's a matter of flavor, really. For example, there's a wide range... 9-16, 17-32, 33-64 I believe, but if you want to model an SMG with a 50 round clip, you pick "33-64." Most people will argue that you can carry between 12 & 20 arrows; your average archer probably has about 20 in his quiver, not 32 (they crowd quickly). If you're thinking in "supers" terms, then the GM may want to call for more "absolute" values so you aren't 'cheesing' the system, but for modeling firearms, there's comparatively little difference between a 25 round clip (a USP 45 cal. SMG) and a 31 round clip (an M-4). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonio Posted January 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR a) because it's lighter because he's stronger c) because you're a candy-ass d) because knives are t3h k3wln3zz!!2141!!!eleven!!21! e) buy more STR f) buy STR, "Only for throwing weapons" g) don't throw your hammer, and it won't matter anyway. "a" <-- SFX giving a distinct, mechanical disadvantage... bad "b" <-- he needn't be, to have more range "c" <-- o_O "d" <-- yes, but hammurz r more full of win, kthxbai "e" <-- no points left, and I'd need too much to equal his range "f" <-- but then so can he, and still have more range than me "g" <-- but I wanna be like Thor!!! *whine* I hate whining. Oh gawd, don't we all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Keep in mind there are certain things intended for certain levels, like it or not. this is definitely a Heroic Limitation and intended for mundane weapons, thus for 99% of all implementations it is valued fairly. No Limitation or Advantage will be valued fairly for 100% of all applications of it, just the nature of a system scalable over such a wide range. Like Flat Cost Powers - expensive in low point games and cheap in high point games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR "a" <-- SFX giving a distinct, mechanical disadvantage... bad "b" <-- he needn't be, to have more range "c" <-- o_O "d" <-- yes, but hammurz r more full of win, kthxbai "e" <-- no points left, and I'd need too much to equal his range "f" <-- but then so can he, and still have more range than me "g" <-- but I wanna be like Thor!!! *whine* Oh gawd, don't we all... a: It's lighter, and only does... what, 1d6-1? A hammer should at least be dealing 1d6+1. Possibly with a +1 STUNx. So nyah. SFX can give distinct advantages all the time. It happens. Ever play d20? b: Yeah, well. It's a dagger. What? c: The truth hurts. d: oh noes!211!! h4mm3rz FTW!!@11! Can has grav-tee hammah? e: See point c. f: Point buy system. Rough beats. See point c. g: Okay, now definitely see point c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR You guys are getting more irksome than the problem itself! Also, I'm extremly sure that as soon as I define my firearm with a clip of 40, I will need a 41st shot. What are you saying there? I should not autofire so much? Pffff. I like big salvos!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR You guys are getting more irksome than the problem itself! Also, I'm extremly sure that as soon as I define my firearm with a clip of 40, I will need a 41st shot. What are you saying there? I should not autofire so much? Pffff. I like big salvos!! Remember; Wild, uncontrolled bursts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Remember; Wild' date=' uncontrolled bursts.[/quote'] It's the American way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenn Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR If I was your GM I'd tell you that energy shuriken should have no mass (they're energy) and therefore shouldn't really be taking "range based on STR" in the first place. A weight of zero (grams, netons. kilos, lbs. whatever) requires a STR so infitessimally small that the "extra STR" is infinity at -10 STR or 110 STR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR It's the American way. It's actually the Unseen University way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR It's actually the Unseen University way. Or at the very least, Rincewind's motto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Or at the very least' date=' Rincewind's motto.[/quote'] Please, Ridcully the Brown's. Rincwind's would have a lot more to do with running not being about to but from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Range based on Str is slightly odd because, at least in my game, it assumes that you can use your strength, which is a form of Restrainable, it limits the distance you can throw it (most missiles are assumed to be at -15 STR), and at times I have enforced a -2 to the OCV based on aereodynamics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdansky Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Definitely Ridcully. Also, I'm European (or Swiss, sadly, we missed the train to EU). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSandman Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR Wild, Uncontrolled Burst... Would that be Ridcully before or after the "Old Faithfull Incident" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike W Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Re: Range Based on STR I have issues with this Advantage/Limitation. It seems to me a static value for this (+/- 1/4) doesn't take into consideration the weight of the "object", making it too dependent on SFX. If I define my RKA as "throwing energy shuriken (which weigh next to nothing)", I'll get a much more effective power than if I define it as "throwing superdense neutronium spheres (which are absurdly heavy)", even though they cost the same. But given that Ranged is a +1/2 Advantage, and No Range is -1/2, there's no space for adjusting the value for heavier/lighter objects. How do you deal with this? Part of the ability to throw something is based not just on weight but also on aerodynamics and the technique involved. Most people can throw a baseball farther than they can throw a playing card - or an arrow. Also, you need to keep in mind the STR of the character who will be doing the throwing. In a Heroic level game where stats over 25 are rare, it's not big deal but in a Superheroic game, a guy with an 80 STR is going to have no real change in his effective range. In most cases, the range will still equal his LOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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