Decoupling Figured Characteristics

[archermoo]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Just sometimes hard to be quiet about stuff you're passionate about ( kind of silly being passionate about a game mechanic Huh?

 

I know what you mean.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Since I'm just a dissenter and really have nothing positive to add I'll let you guys be. Just sometimes hard to be quiet about stuff you're passionate about ( kind of silly being passionate about a game mechanic Huh?

 

I can see your view and I disagree with it but the purpose of the thread was a discussion of the concept -- that includes the positive and the negative. I think the discussion thus far has been within the realm of reasonable debate and shows no signs of turning into a flamefest. Heck, it could be that those of us who favor decoupling Figured Characteristics are completely out to lunch and doing such would destroy the Hero System for the majority of players. That's what discussions are for.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I can see your view and I disagree with it but the purpose of the thread was a discussion of the concept -- that includes the positive and the negative. I think the discussion thus far has been within the realm of reasonable debate and shows no signs of turning into a flamefest. Heck' date=' it could be that those of us who favor decoupling Figured Characteristics are completely out to lunch and doing such would destroy the Hero System for the majority of players. That's what discussions are for.[/quote']

Cool! I just didn't want to rain on anyone's parade.

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I'm sorry that;s not the logical result unless you're Ayn Rand. People are a little too quick IMO to deride counter views as Anti-HERO.

 

Well, I'm not calling it anti-HERO just because I'm opposed to it. I'm calling it anti-HERO because the HERO system is based on giving the player options and on separating game effects from SFX (the whole "reason from effect" thing). The Figured Characteristic concept takes away options (or rather enforces/suggests certain options) and ties game effects and SFX.

 

I really feel characteristics are a very primal basic thing and special case obviously you disagree and have trouble seeing my point. Frankly even Spider-man or Linda Carter Wonder Woman would work fine on the figures given so unless you literally want to design super strong people absolutely no tougher than average man I don't see the issue other than from a purist view of things. That character seems awfully odd to bend the system to make it easier> Why not just buy with "no figured characteristics" ( I know the points are unbalanced to you guys but I feel like you're covered).

 

Because I shouldn't have to Limit a Power, Talent, Skill, or Characteristic to get only the effects of that Power, Talent, Skill, or Characteristic. Because "No Figured Characteristics" doesn't limit my Strength at all, it limits my REC, my PD, my STUN, and my Leaping. Because (and see below) I don't have to buy "No Obvious Derivative Effects" on my fire-based EB so that I don't get special resistance to fire.

 

The fire guy sounds like a pyrokinetic to me. Me and my group have no problem with stuff like that. Completely different to use.

 

Oh, I know you can build one, of course. And it's certainly a valid concept (hell, it's been done a million times!). But why doesn't he get the "free, obvious from the concept" abilities derived from his fire-based EB, just like the super-strong guy gets free, obvious from concept PD, STUN, REC, and Leaping?

 

Super strong doesn't mean bulletproof Again a different issue completely.

 

It doesn't?! Why not?! Superman was super strong, and bulletproof. The Thing was super strong, and bulletproof. The Hulk, I believe, was bulletproof (although that might've been from his regeneration).

 

Of course, I'm sure you can name a bunch of well-known characters who are super strong but not bulletproof. I'm sure I can find a lot of characters who are super strong, but not especially resistant to blunt physical damage, or who recover especially fast, or who can jump especially far.

 

Point is, why was one specific SFX for Strength picked? "Body of stone" would certainly be a good SFX for being stronger... it should also give me resistant defenses, I'd think. More BODY, too. Knockback Resistance, too. Why doesn't STR give me those? Because the default, pretty well enforced, SFX for Strength is "massive musculature". Enforcing SFXs is bad. Creating obstacles to players who wish to use other SFXs is worse.

 

Since I'm just a dissenter and really have nothing positive to add I'll let you guys be. Just sometimes hard to be quiet about stuff you're passionate about ( kind of silly being passionate about a game mechanic Huh?

 

I hear ya... and I don't think it's silly at all, especially when it's not just "a game mechanic", but more like the core of the game, I think.

[Kenn]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Wonder Woman, super strong, but not bulletproof (bracelets not withstanding).

Spider-Man, super strong, but not bulletproof

 

A gorilla, strength in excess of a human's, not bulletproof.

A rhinocerous, stength in excess of a human's, not bulletproof.

A sperm whale, stength in excess of a human's, not bulletproof.

 

Powers were designed to be game effects seperate from special effects. That's explained in the Powers section of the book.

 

There is a Power called "Characteristics", but the bulk of the information on characteristics is in a section of its own because they are something different from powers.

 

And when you're playing a game that is rife with Powers, yes you are opening the door to the "Okay, my powers is ________ Control, what abilities should I have and how do I use Powers to model them." When you're playing a game that isn't rife with Powers, then is it wise to make every player go "Your special effect is biology what abilities does that give you?"

 

The game gives us a standard model for the special effect "biological being", and yeah, it's designed to be the default because most characters are biological beings. It may be more cinematic and dramatic then realistic, but it isn't called "the REAL System."

 

The game gives us game mechanics to attach to Power: Characteristics if you want SOME of the effects that are a part of the biological model as a non-biological ability.

 

And because when you start getting to using powers to represnt biological effects... well, I can always pull out my Gradual Effect, Continuing Charges, 2 handed gestures, Density Increase model that COULD represent the effects of anarobic strength training, but I think that paying of 1 pt. to gain 5 STR, 1 PD, 1 ED, 1" of Knockback resistance would give some of you fits.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Well put, Kenn. That's what I was rather clumsily trying to say.

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

See, it's not "biological being". It's a specific sort of biological being. In the case of STR, it's "more massive musculature, gained from extensive training which includes more than just strength training". STUN and REC don't naturally follow strength training. Neither does Leaping, for some (probably most, certainly for upper-body strength training) types of training. PD does, if we're talking about building muscle mass, and if we're assuming the character didn't have a significant amount of body fat (if he did, then he'll be trading fat for muscle, to no significant gain to PD). See, there are too many exceptions and special cases... STR does not always imply more PD, more REC, more STUN, and more Leaping, not even for biological beings, not even for biological beings using only their innate strength.

 

That's the big problem I have with Figured Characteristics (and Leaping, which absurdly enough is not considered a Figured Characteristic, so +100 STR, No Figured Characteristics, gives me oodles of Leaping).

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

To be fair, it wouldn't really make a lot of sense for a character with 1,267,650,600,228,230,000,000,000,000,000x normal human STR (+100 STR), and the same mass as a normal human being (one flaw of the 'biological being' F/X model: buying STR doesn't make you heavier) to be able to jump no further than a normal person.

 

Also, the added REC from STR doesn't actually give you more 'stamina,' when it comes to exerting your STR. With a speed of 2, the extra REC merely offsets the extra END cost of exerting your STR. If your speed is higher, you'll actually run out of END faster while exerting your full STR every phase, the higher your STR is, in spite of the added REC.

 

Not a problem bricks tend to run into, too badly, since they also tend to buy up thier CON, and/or buy reduced END on thier STR.

 

Similarly, all the added PD does is give you enough PD to resist the BOD you'd do if you punched yourself - presumably, one reason Hero doesn't bother with a 'you hurt your fist' mechanic.

 

(No, I have no such rationales with regard to STN.)

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

To be fair' date=' it wouldn't really make a lot of sense for a character with 1,267,650,600,228,230,000,000,000,000,000x normal human STR (+100 STR), and the same mass as a normal human being (one flaw of the 'biological being' F/X model: buying STR doesn't make you heavier) to be able to jump no further than a normal person.[/quote']

 

Well, it doesn't, if you assume a specific SFX.

"I have mechanical servos running through my body" -- certainly the added Leaping makes sense!

"I have hydraulics-based muscles" -- why the extra Leaping? My strength isn't applied any faster than normal...

 

Also, the added REC from STR doesn't actually give you more 'stamina,' when it comes to exerting your STR. With a speed of 2, the extra REC merely offsets the extra END cost of exerting your STR. If your speed is higher, you'll actually run out of END faster while exerting your full STR every phase, the higher your STR is, in spite of the added REC.

 

Not a problem bricks tend to run into, too badly, since they also tend to buy up thier CON, and/or buy reduced END on thier STR.

 

Similarly, all the added PD does is give you enough PD to resist the BOD you'd do if you punched yourself - presumably, one reason Hero doesn't bother with a 'you hurt your fist' mechanic.

 

(No, I have no such rationales with regard to STN.)

 

But now you're reaching for rationalizations, and still basing it specific SFXs. The added REC means that while I don't have more stamina, I DO recover form exertion faster. I get tired as fast as anybody else, but I come back from it faster. Why? And assuming you're gonna buy you CON up is just depending even more on SFX. Based on your argument, shouldn't you get free CON out of higher STR anyway?

 

So why do I get more resistance to my own punches? I'm sure if I'm strong enough, and if I can overcome certain ingrained reflexes, I can knock myself out with a single punch.

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

"I have hydraulics-based muscles" -- why the extra Leaping? My strength isn't applied any faster than normal...

That 'slow strength' thing is a really odd case. A limitation works fine for it. I mean, I think I've maybe seen /one/ character with STR that worked that way.

 

 

But now you're reaching for rationalizations, and still basing it specific SFXs.

Actually those were purely mechanical observations. STR gives you just enough REC to get back the extra END you use to exert it each turn, /if/ your SPD is only 2. That has nothing to do with F/X. STR gives you just enough PD to stand up to the average BOD of your own STR-based attacks.

 

The added REC means that while I don't have more stamina, I DO recover form exertion faster.

Yes, and you have more stamina when doing things other than exerting your massive STR, like simply walking.

 

Assuming you're gonna buy you CON up is just depending even more on SFX.

That assumption was actually given as a counter-point to my own argument. STR, assuming just the figured CHA from STR, exhausts you faster the higher you buy it up, if you have SPD higher than two. That implies that the extra REC from STR is hardly excessive, from a mechanical point of view. Mittigating that point is the fact that CON and R END are out there.

 

Based on your argument, shouldn't you get free CON out of higher STR anyway?

Ih. Where you draw the line between stats is very much a design choice. Champions has more stats than most games. Some put all your physical attributes - what Champs breaks out into STR, CON, BOD, STN, REC, END, & PD - into one stat. Some games break what champs does with EGO into two. It's pretty arbitrary.

 

So why do I get more resistance to my own punches?

Well, if you didn't have a PD equal to the BOD you typically inflict, wouldn't you be hurting yourself more than the otherguy some of the time? For that matter, wouldn't you be doing yourself some injury any time you fully exerted your STR? I'm not talking F/X, here, just rules physics. If you hit someone with a DEF 2 BOD 2 object, you do a maximum of 4d with it, IIRC (and again, I'm sorry if that's actually a dated rule from an earlier edition, I've played this game too long...), and doesn't it break, too? If you did, by default, run around with a 2 PD fist dishing out 12d with a brute-force punch, wouldn't that perhaps strain credulity a little? (Obviously, with enough martial arts, you can do just that, but that's an exraordinary amount of skill involved, too).

 

 

I'm sure if I'm strong enough, and if I can overcome certain ingrained reflexes, I can knock myself out with a single punch.

Indeed, you can - and STR doesn't give you nearly enough PD to stop you from doing so.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

If it makes sense for the SFX of your strenghth to give you things like PD or REC then you buy those up just like if your Super-Speed gives you Desolidification, you buy that. It's much more consistent.

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

That 'slow strength' thing is a really odd case. A limitation works fine for it. I mean' date=' I think I've maybe seen /one/ character with STR that worked that way.[/quote']

 

Granted... but I'm just trying to find examples of extreme cases. A more normal case would be, say, an olympic weight lifter, who should probably not be able to jump much further than a normally athletic (slightly higher DEX, hardly any extra STR) person.

 

Actually those were purely mechanical observations. STR gives you just enough REC to get back the extra END you use to exert it each turn' date=' /if/ your SPD is only 2. That has nothing to do with F/X. STR gives you just enough PD to stand up to the average BOD of your own STR-based attacks.[/quote']

 

Ah, my bad. I thought you were using those observations as justifications for Figureds from STR.

 

Yes' date=' and you have more stamina when doing things other than exerting your massive STR, like simply walking.[/quote']

 

Not really. You recover faster from exertion. Stamina is more closely modeled by END, not REC.

 

That assumption was actually given as a counter-point to my own argument. STR' date=' assuming just the figured CHA from STR, exhausts you faster the higher you buy it up, if you have SPD higher than two. That implies that the extra REC from STR is hardly excessive, from a mechanical point of view. Mittigating that point is the fact that CON and R END are out there.[/quote']

 

I'm not arguing whether it's excessive or not... I'm arguing whether it should be there at all.

 

Ih. Where you draw the line between stats is very much a design choice. Champions has more stats than most games. Some put all your physical attributes - what Champs breaks out into STR' date=' CON, BOD, STN, REC, END, & PD - into one stat. Some games break what champs does with EGO into two. It's pretty arbitrary.[/quote']

 

Maybe, but HERO brings with it a certain feel, a core concept, where you pay for raw effects, and apply SFX. Game mechanics, in HERO, don't bring with them SFX. YOU supply that when you build your character. You also get as many options as possible, flexibility is maximized. Lumping all physical stats into one stat would break that, since not only do you now have less flexibility, but you're also pidgeonholed into a specific SFX of an all-around burly guy.

 

Well' date=' if you didn't have a PD equal to the BOD you typically inflict, wouldn't you be hurting yourself more than the otherguy some of the time? For that matter, wouldn't you be doing yourself some injury any time you fully exerted your STR? I'm not talking F/X, here, just rules physics. If you hit someone with a DEF 2 BOD 2 object, you do a maximum of 4d with it, IIRC (and again, I'm sorry if that's actually a dated rule from an earlier edition, I've played this game too long...), and doesn't it break, too? If you did, by default, run around with a 2 PD fist dishing out 12d with a brute-force punch, wouldn't that perhaps strain credulity a little? (Obviously, with enough martial arts, you can do just that, but that's an exraordinary amount of skill involved, too).[/quote']

 

I think you ARE talking F/X. Game rules: you pay for the ability to do damage, you get the ability to do damage, not the ability to do damage with the caveat that you can be damaged when using it. If a high damage, low defenses character doesn't make any sense given the SFX, then it's time to adjust what powers were bought, or modify the SFX: if the SFX for my EB is "I call upon the sun to focus it's rays on my target", then you either apply "Only when the sun's out (-1/2)" to my EB (i.e. adjust the powers I bought), or say, for example, "I can also call upon the stars, the moon, or even the heat emanating from my body to do so" (i.e. change the SFX). The SFX for a certain power might also require other powers to be bought: Tunneling bought as "I disintegrate whatever's in the hex in front of me" requiring some sort of attack power (or, again, changing the SFX to explain why it won't disintegrate people, for example).

 

You don't hurt your fist when you attack because you paid for an attack. How that gets explained in SFX might require you to buy more PD, sure... or it might require you to adjust your SFX a bit... or you might just ignore the inconsistency (not a good idea, I think). But you shouldn't get free PD just because, logically, you need it to punch w/o hurting yourself. Same as you don't get free ED from have an energy-based HA or EB or RKA or whatever. =)

 

Indeed' date=' you can - and STR doesn't give you nearly enough PD to stop you from doing so.[/quote']

 

Erm, right... my bad. But I can certainly hurt myself seriously (that is, take BODY damage), and it's certainly easier the stronger I get. That should mean that at least I shouldn't get enough PD to cover my extra damage.

 

If it makes sense for the SFX of your strenghth to give you things like PD or REC then you buy those up just like if your Super-Speed gives you Desolidification' date=' you buy that. It's much more consistent.[/quote']

 

Right!

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I'm not arguing whether it's excessive or not... I'm arguing whether it should be there at all.

Fine, but that does make it a more philosophical rather than practical argument. It's not nonsensical or game breaking that STR adds to PD, it just doesn't perfectly fit the underlying philosophy of the game.

 

HERO brings with it a certain feel, a core concept, where you pay for raw effects, and apply SFX. Game mechanics, in HERO, don't bring with them SFX. YOU supply that when you build your character.

This is true, but it doesn't follow that core concept slavishly. It compromises it in the name of accessability and playability. Can you imagine how turned-off a newbie would be to buying ordinary human STR to the level of detail we're talking here?

 

Lumping all physical stats into one stat would break that, since not only do you now have less flexibility, but you're also pidgeonholed into a specific SFX of an all-around burly guy.

 

 

 

I think you ARE talking F/X. Game rules: you pay for the ability to do damage, you get the ability to do damage, not the ability to do damage with the caveat that you can be damaged when using it.

There's a fuzzy line there, actually. For instance, you buy EB:EX, and you are paying for an attack that might, at times, do damage to you. You don't buy an attack when you buy STR, you buy the ability to exert greater strength than normal. That's a very familiar concept, since exerting strength is something most of us do on a daily basis (even I carry my laptop out of the office at the end of the day). What a person can do with strength is obvious, and breaking it up is counter-intuitive. Inconsistent with the underlying philosophy of the game, but justifiably so.

 

I have, in the past, let me assure you, gone down the road of trying to hone the system into a perfectly affects-based list of 'atomic' powers (atomic as in individible, each representing a single, clearly defined, unambiguous ability and nothing more). It's virtually impossible, and even working towards it too far gets you something that no one will want to play...

[archermoo]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

What a person can do with strength is obvious' date=' and breaking it up is counter-intuitive. Inconsistent with the underlying philosophy of the game, but justifiably so.[/quote']

 

I agree with the point, I just disagree that PD, REC and STUN and Leaping are obvious things that people can do with Strength. I'd say lifting things, hitting things harder, throwing things further, things like that are the things that people can obviously do with Strength.

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Well, and climbing & jumping, yes.

 

One of the oddities of STR has always been that it's both a characteristic that you always have, and an ability that costs END to use. Most powers are one or the other. Either always there (unless you turn them off), or there only when you pay END for them.

[archermoo]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Well, and climbing & jumping, yes.

 

One of the oddities of STR has always been that it's both a characteristic that you always have, and an ability that costs END to use. Most powers are one or the other. Either always there (unless you turn them off), or there only when you pay END for them.

 

Strength isn't a Power, though it (as all Characteristics) can be purchased as one. It is a Characteristic that costs END for most of its uses.

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

OK. "Most powers and other characteristics..." then.

[archermoo]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

OK. "Most powers and other characteristics..." then.

 

I guess I don't see your point. Strength is a Characteristic that costs END for most of the uses it has. I don't see how that impacts whether or not buying up Strength should automatically also give you PD, REC, STUN, or Leaping.

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

It necessitates a few exceptions to normal rules. For instance, if you put multiple END cost on STR, you have to lose figured CHA, since they're not impacted by that limitation. That's not the case with DEX or CON - put limits on them, and, presumably, the figured stats could share the limitation.

 

It's one of a number of unique things about STR that make comparing it to a sing power, or even to the figured CHA it provides, problematic.

[archermoo]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

It necessitates a few exceptions to normal rules. For instance, if you put multiple END cost on STR, you have to lose figured CHA, since they're not impacted by that limitation. That's not the case with DEX or CON - put limits on them, and, presumably, the figured stats could share the limitation.

 

It's one of a number of unique things about STR that make comparing it to a sing power, or even to the figured CHA it provides, problematic.

 

Any Characteristic that has a limitation on it that does not impact the Figured Characteristics provided by that Characteristic loses the Figureds. Not just Strength. Just because there is a Limitation that Strength is the only Characteristic that it normally applies to doesn't make Strength a special case.

 

And I'm neither comparing Strength to a Power nor the Figured Characteristics that it provides. I'm saying that I think all Figured Characteristics should be decoupled from their Primary Characterstics.

 

Unless I'm missing something, we seem to be having two different conversations here.

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I'm sure there are several different covnersations going on, yes.

 

De-coupling characteristics is an obvious solution - if you want to eliminate the sort of 'discounts' represented by figured characteristics, ECs, perhaps other frameworks and even limitations. It's also an obvious solution is you want to reduce all purchased abilities (anything that costs points) to thier pure, single, unique, unambiguous fuctions. So that's two conversations that are going on here, for a start.

 

I suppose you could put limitations on primary characteristics to reduce thier utlity, and that wouldn't carry through to the figured ones. DEX 'doesn't affect initiative order' or CON 'doesn't protect vs stunning.' Increased END, though is a limitation that's normally aplied to anything that costs END, without much controversy.

 

Yes, comparisons have been made in this thread between STR and attack powers, for instance, so I'm still harping on that some. And between Primary stats and Power frameworks. (Hmm there's actually another very similar thread, it might have been there). The idea that STR is 'too cheap' because of the value it gives in figured characteristics, often at the heart of increasing it's cost or dropping figureds, is also in effect, a comparison between STR and those characteristics (mainly thier costs, obviously).

[rjcurrie]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I'm sure there are several different covnersations going on, yes.

 

De-coupling characteristics is an obvious solution - if you want to eliminate the sort of 'discounts' represented by figured characteristics, ECs, perhaps other frameworks and even limitations. It's also an obvious solution is you want to reduce all purchased abilities (anything that costs points) to thier pure, single, unique, unambiguous fuctions. So that's two conversations that are going on here, for a start.

 

I suppose you could put limitations on primary characteristics to reduce thier utlity, and that wouldn't carry through to the figured ones. DEX 'doesn't affect initiative order' or CON 'doesn't protect vs stunning.' Increased END, though is a limitation that's normally aplied to anything that costs END, without much controversy.

 

Yes, comparisons have been made in this thread between STR and attack powers, for instance, so I'm still harping on that some. And between Primary stats and Power frameworks. (Hmm there's actually another very similar thread, it might have been there). The idea that STR is 'too cheap' because of the value it gives in figured characteristics, often at the heart of increasing it's cost or dropping figureds, is also in effect, a comparison between STR and those characteristics (mainly thier costs, obviously).

 

In my case, I am not arguing that Figured Characteristics should be decoupled because it gives you a discount, but because it forces certain SFX -related connections between characteristics. If people want to create a new Framework (or modify rules for EC) to allow the player to define a SFX-related connection between Characteristics that gives a discount, I have no problem with that.

 

See, to me, getting 3 additional points of PD (and other Figureds) just because I buy 15 additional points of STR and then having to either sell them off or buy a Limitation because they don't fit my concept is objectionable as Hero suddenly deciding that every 6d6 of EB also gives 1d6 of RKA.

 

As for the actual costs of items, they're never going to be perfectly balanced, so, as long as they're reasonable, I'm happy. For me, this is not an argument about costs.

[JmOz]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

In my case, I am not arguing that Figured Characteristics should be decoupled because it gives you a discount, but because it forces certain SFX -related connections between characteristics. If people want to create a new Framework (or modify rules for EC) to allow the player to define a SFX-related connection between Characteristics that gives a discount, I have no problem with that.

 

See, to me, getting 3 additional points of PD (and other Figureds) just because I buy 15 additional points of STR and then having to either sell them off or buy a Limitation because they don't fit my concept is objectionable as Hero suddenly deciding that every 6d6 of EB also gives 1d6 of RKA.

 

As for the actual costs of items, they're never going to be perfectly balanced, so, as long as they're reasonable, I'm happy. For me, this is not an argument about costs.

 

I could get behind that, say let EC's have characteristics (No matter the END cost) and provide as an example "Strong Guy"

 

10 EC

10 +20 Str

10 +20 PD

10 +20 ED

10 +20 Stun

---

50 points

 

but that might be even more broke in the end

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I agree with the point' date=' I just disagree that PD, REC and STUN and Leaping are obvious things that people can do with Strength. I'd say lifting things, hitting things harder, throwing things further, things like that are the things that people can obviously do with Strength.[/quote']And it goes more to Character Concept than any fundamental aspect of STR.

 

You are a strong human. Your Character Concept, overall, is that of a human, which means that if you are building that character correctly to capture those things that make a properly framed human you would have more Leaping bought up if that character is also going to be very strong (in total, maybe not if all of that strength is meant to be upper body muscle).

 

If your character concept is that of a very strong car assembly plant robot, bolted to the ground, then leaping would not be a natural consequence of that robot having a high STR.

 

I agree with Rod, figured characteristics are a unnecessary complication that probably could be done away with (rather easily.)

 

TB

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

What else should be decoupled? I'll toss out a couple that I would decouple before Figured's:

 

- Mental Awareness from Mental Powers. It's separate. And no way should you save 12 points on a 60 point Mind Control for not getting a 3 point sense with it!

 

- Aid and Reduced END. Make it cost END like the other adjustment powers. if that means it costs 20 points for 3d6, so be it.