Decoupling Figured Characteristics

[lemming]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

To the issue of COM, making it a perk either means:

 

- you buy it once, so anyone "good looking" (or "hideously ugly") is just as "good looking" (or "hideously ugly") as anyone else with the perk

 

or

 

- you buy it in increments with each having an incremental game effect (presumably bonuses to interaction skills in appropriate circumstances for appearance), so it's not much different from buying a stat.

One thing I've noted over the years is that different groups have different values for COM. (Or maybe my group was the one that was wacky. Very possible)

 

Having it as a Perk does make some sense, but I like the numbers...

[lemming]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

The problem with these is that, according to Steve, when you buy something that has a 1/2 point cost, you are supposed to retain and keep track of this 1/2 and not round it off.

A little snippage, but I've always liked this. And I think it was to get people not to have 11 COM for free.

 

On to the rest:

I'm for decoupling myself, I'm not entirely happy with Rod's version, but you have to start with something.

 

I'd have CON at 1, DEX at 2, REC at 2.

 

Sam Bell ran a Fantasy Hero game that did this, but it was more complicated.

 

Some examination of ECs & MP would have to happen as well.

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Having a pre-set coupling enforces particular preconceptions about the SFX of these abilities.

Giving all characters Sight as a targetting sense enforces particular preconceptions and SFX, too. In a campaign where most characters are going to be human, or, for that matter, alive, having the default that the healthier they are, the longer they can run before becoming exhausted or the stronger they are the more resistant to physical damage they are, doesn't strike me as that unreasonable. Characters that deviate from that norm can take powers, disadvantages, adders, and whatnot to fit thier concept.

 

But, sure, you could change that baseline. If you run a game where the expected default character is a psychic sponge from Jupiter, for instance, STR will not give you leaping distance (maybe it'll give you Clinging, instead)....

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Giving all characters Sight as a targetting sense enforces particular preconceptions and SFX' date=' too. In a campaign where most characters are going to be human, or, for that matter, alive, having the default that the healthier they are, the longer they can run before becoming exhausted or the stronger they are the more resistant to physical damage they are, doesn't strike me as that unreasonable. Characters that deviate from that norm can take powers, disadvantages, adders, and whatnot to fit thier concept. [/quote']

 

You're right, of course. It all comes down to how common these couplings are, and how seamlessly you can get rid of them if concept requires it. Currently, decoupling Figureds from Primaries is fugly, since it just takes a standard -1/2, which assumes all Primaries contribute the same to Figureds. And apparently it's not as common as having Sight as targetting, else the issue wouldn't have come up, I think.

 

But' date=' sure, you could change that baseline. If you run a game where the expected default character is a psychic sponge from Jupiter, for instance, STR will not give you leaping distance (maybe it'll give you Clinging, instead)....[/quote']

 

No, see, Jupiter's a gas giant, so Clinging would be useless. That's just silly.

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

No' date=' see, Jupiter's a gas giant, so Clinging would be useless. That's just silly. [/quote']Sure, there are no oceans on Jupiter, and the martian 'canals' are just an optical illustion - that would stop me from running a game set on Barsoom.

[Kenn]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I'm still fuzzy on the point of this de-coupling.

 

Is the current coupling so obnoxious, bad, harmful, distracting or distressing?

 

There are some people who find that Characteristics (which though they can be bought as Powers are not specifically Powers) were designed with a specific special effect (i.e. being a biological being) in mind. Therefore, building up an efficient muscle mass automatically makes you stronger, able to hit harder, resistent to blunt trauma and recover from damage faster. Being very quick witted will make intellect based skills easier, etc.

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Sure' date=' there are no oceans on Jupiter, and the martian 'canals' are just an optical illustion - that would stop me from running a game set on Barsoom.[/quote']

 

Was s'posed to be a joke.

[Kenn]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

As far as making COM a perk, it would work. The higher you buy it, the more effective it is.

 

To quote Julie Brown...

"I see people working, and I just have to giggle, 'cause I don't have to work, I just have to jiggle, 'cause I'm blonde yeah, yeah, yeah"

 

So 10 pts. of Attractiveness should be about as useful as 10 pts. of wealth.

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

There are some people who find that Characteristics (which though they can be bought as Powers are not specifically Powers) were designed with a specific special effect (i.e. being a biological being) in mind. Therefore' date=' building up an efficient muscle mass automatically makes you stronger, able to hit harder, resistent to blunt trauma and recover from damage faster. Being very quick witted will make intellect based skills easier, etc.[/quote']

 

It's actually worse than that... I mean, honestly, why are STR and REC tied? PD? Seems to me that it's not that being stronger makes you recover faster and get hurt less, but that it's assumed that people who are strong will also have developed their recovery and resistance to blunt trauma. If being strong means you have more muscle mass (not more efficient, but just plain more), then a higher PD is justified, but not only does this automatically assume a specific SFX (and one that's not THAT common in at least some genres), it also unfairly benefits that SFX. I can choose to have a low CON because I'm terribly overweight, asthmatic, and sickly in general... but I should get higher PD from that (from the added fat), and it makes no sense for me to have lower ED (well, maybe against fire/heat, since fat is flammable).

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

It's actually worse than that... I mean' date=' honestly, why are STR and REC tied?[/quote']Presumably because living things develop STR in response to exertion, which also developes stamina, and strengthens bone & tissue. Really, it could argueably give you END, too.

 

But, also, simply because it's a game, and games use a certain level of abstraction. Champions used a lot less, in some senses, than other games of it's era - thus had many more characteristics.

 

D&D and BRP for instance, each had 6. If you converted such a character to Hero, he wouldn't not have STN or END. He already had limits to his endurance and ability to stay conscious, they were just wrapped up in one stat, instead of being individual stats that you could customize, if you wanted to.

[Alibear]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Lots of people train to increase body mass but can hardly walk the length of themselves. Strong does not equal fit. You need to lift heavy weights to be bigger and stronger. You need to lift less weight and do more reps to get fitter.

 

Rec has nowt to do with Str.

[Opal]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

OK, so it couldn't argueably give you END, also. ;(

 

As if it wasn't already obvious I've never 'trained' a day in my life....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

As far as making COM a perk, it would work. The higher you buy it, the more effective it is.

 

To quote Julie Brown...

"I see people working, and I just have to giggle, 'cause I don't have to work, I just have to jiggle, 'cause I'm blonde yeah, yeah, yeah"

 

So 10 pts. of Attractiveness should be about as useful as 10 pts. of wealth.

 

How is that different from just spending 10 points on COM, and assigning game mechanics to COM the same as you would to the "Attractiveness" perk? If 5 points of Attractiveness add 2 to my Interaction Skills when dealing with apropriate targets, 5 points invested in COM can do the same thing (COM/5 becomes the added bonus).

 

Why stop with COM? Add:

 

-"Impressive" perk - each level purchased adds 1d6 to your base PRE attack

 

- "Not Easily Impressed" perk - each level subtracts 5 from PRE attacks to which you are subjected

 

- "Persuasive" Perk - each 5 points adds 1 to your interaction skills

 

Now we can just eliminate PRE - you buy all its effects through perks.

[Comic]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Once you've done all of this de-coupling, re-costing, elimination of various options, advantages, and frameworks, added in various new options, perks, and so forth.. won't you be back to square one?

 

Won't you just end up with a merely more complex suite of options?

 

Sure, each of the options in itself is simpler, but overall I don't see this lessening the time it takes to create characters, adjudicate out-of-combat actions, or run combats.

 

Isn't the time each of these things take far more pressing in most groups than aesthetic issues?

 

Or do these schemes have some inherent streamlining that I've missed?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I think groups heavily concerned with fast character creation and speedy combats aren't playing HERO in the first place.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I think groups heavily concerned with fast character creation and speedy combats aren't playing HERO in the first place.

 

 

Maybe but stuff like this would certainly chase me away. There's a threshold beyond which it loses its charm when you have to jump through hoops to model simple things like STR that all characters have.

One of the reasons I switched to HERO was it speeded combat up from my homebrew system but gave me even more detail. The thing is, if I dropped the optional stuff it would be even speedier. Honestly players deciding what to do takes longer than the mechanics. Admittedly there some really fast really abstract systems out there but for the detail, HERO does pretty well.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Maybe but stuff like this would certainly chase me away. There's a threshold beyond which it loses its charm when you have to jump through hoops to model simple things like STR that all characters have.

I agree. I just don't think that having STR no longer contribute free points to PD, REC, and STUN constitutes "jumping through hoops."

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Right... getting rid of Figureds actually does streamline things. Well, not so much with HERO Designer, but if you're doing things by hand, it's a coupla less expressions to evaluate. Sure, you don't get free characteristics, but that shouldn't be a problem... you can just buy them right up, up to whatever value you want. You'd just be trading "calculating figureds" for "buying figureds up", which is probably simpler, anyway.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

Right... getting rid of Figureds actually does streamline things. Well' date=' not so much with HERO Designer, but if you're doing things by hand, it's a coupla less expressions to evaluate. Sure, you don't get free characteristics, but that shouldn't be a problem... you can just buy them right up, up to whatever value you want. You'd just be trading "calculating figureds" for "buying figureds up", which is probably simpler, anyway.[/quote']

 

Exactly, one of the big selling points of Hero is getting exactly the character you want. And by just buying all Characteristics at the levels you want, it better accomplishes it.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I agree. I just don't think that having STR no longer contribute free points to PD' date=' REC, and STUN constitutes "jumping through hoops." [/quote']

 

We'll have to agree to disagree then I suppose. I feel like its an unnecessary complication to design a cinematically rational/accurate character where the existing system works quite elegantly and logically. ( "I can lift a truck but I'm only as tough as a normal person because I forgot to buy that separately This is stupid")The figures make life so much easier for my players. At least at first, now they could probably adapt.Although I probably won't have gotten HERO's foot in the door as easily if it was always like that and I might not have wanted to.

[Tonio]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

We'll have to agree to disagree then I suppose. I feel like its an unnecessary complication to design a cinematically rational/accurate character where the existing system works quite elegantly and logically. ( "I can lift a truck but I'm only as tough as a normal person because I forgot to buy that separately This is stupid")The figures make life so much easier for my players. At least at first' date=' now they could probably adapt.Although I probably won't have gotten HERO's foot in the door as easily if it was always like that and I might not have wanted to.[/quote']

 

As opposed to "I can lift a truck, but I get hurt with knives and bullets as a normal person because I forgot to buy DR separately"? Or, more to the point, "I can control and shoot fire out of my hands (i.e., I bought EB defined as fire) but I get hurt by fire as a normal person because I forgot to buy FF, only vs Fire, separately"?

 

The logical result of your argument is a system like DC, where powers are tied to SFX and offer many separate abilities, at the cost of losing flexibility and the ability to build concepts not conceived by the system creator. That is, the opposite of what HERO is all about.

 

Additionally, I believe what we'd be seeing is not "this is unnecessary complication to design a cinematically rational/accurate character", and that the existing system works quite elegantly and logically", but rather "a specific character concept would now be as complex as the rest of them always where" (that concept being massive, high-STR characters), and "the existing system streamlines a specific character concept (same as above), while unecessarily complicating others (any other sort of high-STR character)".

[archermoo]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

We'll have to agree to disagree then I suppose. I feel like its an unnecessary complication to design a cinematically rational/accurate character where the existing system works quite elegantly and logically. ( "I can lift a truck but I'm only as tough as a normal person because I forgot to buy that separately This is stupid")The figures make life so much easier for my players. At least at first' date=' now they could probably adapt.Although I probably won't have gotten HERO's foot in the door as easily if it was always like that and I might not have wanted to.[/quote']

 

As opposed to "I can lift a truck, but it is a pain to buy that and still not be any more resistant to damage than a normal person, while also not recovering any faster either, since I can't buy down more than one Figured at a time. Grr...maybe there's a limitation I can buy to help..."

 

I much prefer the idea that you buy the stats you want, rather than having someone elses idea of what your character should have forced on you. Granted there are ways to break out of that forced mold, but I think not having it there in the first place is a much more elegant solution. One of my first impressions of Hero in 1981 (after "Cool, I can make up whatever character I want! No more random rolls!") was "Huh, Figured Characteristics are kind of limiting..."

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

As opposed to "I can lift a truck, but it is a pain to buy that and still not be any more resistant to damage than a normal person, while also not recovering any faster either, since I can't buy down more than one Figured at a time. Grr...maybe there's a limitation I can buy to help..."

 

I much prefer the idea that you buy the stats you want, rather than having someone else's idea of what your character should have forced on you. Granted there are ways to break out of that forced mold, but I think not having it there in the first place is a much more elegant solution. One of my first impressions of Hero in 1981 (after "Cool, I can make up whatever character I want! No more random rolls!") was "Huh, Figured Characteristics are kind of limiting..."

 

 

I see what you're trying to say I just still disagree. I never found it limiting to each his own.

[archermoo]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

I see what you're trying to say I just still disagree. I never found it limiting to each his own.

 

Cool. I'll certainly agree that it isn't limiting to a certain subset of character types. I just frequently am interested in building characters outside of that fairly limited subset.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Decoupling Figured Characteristics

 

As opposed to "I can lift a truck, but I get hurt with knives and bullets as a normal person because I forgot to buy DR separately"? Or, more to the point, "I can control and shoot fire out of my hands (i.e., I bought EB defined as fire) but I get hurt by fire as a normal person because I forgot to buy FF, only vs Fire, separately"?

 

The logical result of your argument is a system like DC, where powers are tied to SFX and offer many separate abilities, at the cost of losing flexibility and the ability to build concepts not conceived by the system creator. That is, the opposite of what HERO is all about.

 

Additionally, I believe what we'd be seeing is not "this is unnecessary complication to design a cinematically rational/accurate character", and that the existing system works quite elegantly and logically", but rather "a specific character concept would now be as complex as the rest of them always where" (that concept being massive, high-STR characters), and "the existing system streamlines a specific character concept (same as above), while unecessarily complicating others (any other sort of high-STR character)".

 

I'm sorry that;s not the logical result unless you're Ayn Rand. People are a little too quick IMO to deride counter views as Anti-HERO.I really feel characteristics are a very primal basic thing and special case obviously you disagree and have trouble seeing my point. Frankly even Spider-man or Linda Carter Wonder Woman would work fine on the figures given so unless you literally want to design super strong people absolutely no tougher than average man I don't see the issue other than from a purist view of things. That character seems awfully odd to bend the system to make it easier> Why not just buy with "no figured characteristics" ( I know the points are unbalanced to you guys but I feel like you're covered).

The fire guy sounds like a pyrokinetic to me. Me and my group have no problem with stuff like that. Completely different to use. Super strong doesn't mean bulletproof Again a different issue completely.

Since I'm just a dissenter and really have nothing positive to add I'll let you guys be. Just sometimes hard to be quiet about stuff you're passionate about ( kind of silly being passionate about a game mechanic Huh?