Homo Sapiens and their guns

[nexus]

Spun off from Steamteck's thread. How dangerous to you feel "normal" people armed with conventional weapons should be? Normal being defined as lacking Powers of whatever Special Effect (technology, Training, Mutation (deliberate or from birth), Alien Origin Magic or anything else)

 

 

Edit: There, anything else I'll have to call in a lawyer.

[Hermit]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I'm very much a hypocrite on this.

I think supervillains should require superheroes to stop them.

Yet, on the other hand, I think the surest fire way to get your butt stomped in a comic book setting, or at least have your schemes turn to ashes around you, is to say "He's just a man".

 

So if the Normal is a PC? He can be the one who saves the world.

If the normal is an NPC? Not so much, unless the story is one of those where a brave normal man stands up and loses his life, but turns the tide (ala what happened to "Terrible Turpin" in Superman:tAS)

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Thanks for making a new thread for this. Here's my take in my world.

 

Frankly I design most of my front line normals just as I would the heroes for a fairly "cough cough" realistic campaign. Something pretty cinematic Maybe no Arnie style "John Matrix" types who are arguably superhuman but their skills are pretty top notch. The best of them the heroes certainly like to have around for more than just their snappy personalities.The biggest difference is they're designed with NCM and no powers. The best of them I design with 100 points plus as many disadvantages as appropriate which is what the starting heroes get.( we don't actually have a cap on disadvantages just 100 in any one category. ) The normals are very handy to have around and don't just stand there looking pretty but let the supers handle hand to hand with Durak etc.

 

The feel of my game is that guns are a comparably small threat but that doesn't mean ignorable. Even the greatest Supers need to respect military hardware. They just usually can't apply to them in time or without excessive collateral damage. Villains who would be out in costume challenging the police do so because they're probably too much for SWAT/SCU to handle most of the time without our heroes. Those who can't take a lower profile. Several masterminds THEORETICALY could be brought in by a competent normal with a gun. ( So could Fu Manchu in theory also though)

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Well lets define normal vs. competent normal.

 

For a start I think we can agree that John McCain is a normal 150 point HERO doing extraordinary things. Now how about Zeus Carver (Samuel L. Jackson) character. I see Zeus also as a competent normal the same point value as McCain but a different character altogether. Where McCain becomes a HERO is not based upon the points he has in his character or his skills but the choices he makes throughout the Die Hard series of movies.

 

A character like Zeus might not be as dangerous as McCain but he could aim (set) or aim for vitals (haymaker) as good as any 150 point normal HERO could, or even just using his head to get out of bad situations that McClain would not normally think of. Just because he does not shoot like McCain does not make him any less dangerous in the hands of a good player and only slightly less dangerous with a gun.

 

Now lets take a look at the truck driver tells McClane the 21st president was Chester A. Arthur, and identifies the school in which Simon claims to have placed a bomb. The truck driver would also be to me a competant normal with a wide variety of skills and not just limited to truck driver stereo type.

 

 

 

 

Now that I think about to me a HERO is nothing less than a competent normal acting like a HERO should. 150 points for competence sounds about right.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Good example with Zeus ( I love he had that name) had skills( probably a few talents like lightning calculator too) that MCClain really needed to solve the problem at hand but was a little short in the combat department (and didn't buckets of damage reduction). Zeus type of character would actually be a better useful normal for a supers setting because the McClain character would probably be a super who could apply the massive force when needed. It always seemed to me the non powered normals would have people just as competent in their own way even if they can't bench press tanks. Normal doesn't have to mean mook.

[Clonus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Spun off from Steamteck's thread. How dangerous to you feel "normal" people armed with conventional weapons should be? Normal being defined as lacking powers and "supertech".

 

Unless they wear a costume, not dangerous at all. People who don't wear costumes are required to suck. One must look cool to be accurate.

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Spun off from Steamteck's thread. How dangerous to you feel "normal" people armed with conventional weapons should be? Normal being defined as lacking powers and "supertech".

Karate Kid lacks powers and super-tech, but can go HTH with Superman.

 

In Champions! speak, a 'normal' is an ordinary person - a little old lady, a bank guard, a taxi driver, a blowhard army general, a coniving lawyer, a helpful doctor, a restentful detective, whatever.

 

Ordinary people with ordinary weapons should be a minimal threat to supers. They might make a big difference in how the action goes down, though, if they threaten a hostage, save a wounded bystander, or remove a Kryptonite necklace.

 

But a 'normal' - in the sense of not having powers or magic items or super-tech - can /be/ a superhero, if he's got the preternatural skills and stats for it. You can skate the edge of human maximum on all stats, add some martial arts, DCs, skill levels, and a little kevlar, and you're competative in a super-powered battle.

 

 

I think there's been some 'inflation' when it comes to stating out normals. In the olden days, most normals were just people with 0 points, and a few stats moved around, maybe a minor disad, and a few skill points. Competent ones might have been built of 20 or 50 points. And, if you looked at the 1E skill list, that wasn't a problem. You wanted a Dectecive: give him 'Detective Work' for 5 points, that's all he needs, he's now a detective. Buy up his INT and he's a good one. No PS, no KS, no perks. Nice and simple.

 

When Champs merged with the other games that did other-genre Heros in much more detail, I think it started a trend towards statting out ordinary NPCs like genre Heros. I don't think that was a good thing.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I sincerely hope by "costume" you don't mean bullet proof spandex?

 

Thats so 70's... (shudders)

[Alibear]

Well lets define normal vs. competent normal.

Okay.

 

Now lets take a look at the truck driver tells McClane the 21st president was Chester A. Arthur, and identifies the school in which Simon claims to have placed a bomb. The truck driver would also be to me a competant normal with a wide variety of skills and not just limited to truck driver stereo type.

 

I would write him up on zero points plus a few disads.

 

Now that I think about to me a HERO is nothing less than a competent normal acting like a HERO should. 150 points for competence sounds about right.

 

25+25 sounds good. Cop/Soldier

 

50+50 sounds more than competent. National team martial artist/ veteran combat hardened troops/ men that stand out and win medals.

 

75+75 sounds the toughest guys on our planet and like blokes from fiction. Special forces/Jack Bauer is 75+75 with some xps thrown in, in later series.

[nexus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Karate Kid lacks powers and super-tech, but can go HTH with Superman.

 

 

Karate Kid's extreme martial training/talent are his powers/sfx and the above is being unnecessarily pedantic, IMO (and a little insulting). Actually I largely agree with your opinion as far NPC/normal stats go..

[Alibear]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Indeed, same goes for The Batman, he does stuff normal people cannot do, ever! And he does it routinely with no worries. He's a SUPER no matter what his back story is.

[Jaxom]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Two thoughts.

 

Try to build a US Marine with full gear. See how many points it takes you (it was an interesting exercise for our gaming group for sure). We required them to pay points for all their equipment so that it could be compared to a supers campaign.

 

I want my normals to be able to threaten the heroes (and villains for that matter). Not be seriously dangerous necessarily but to make groups like the mafia and the police something not to be ignored unless in special circumstances. Sure, normal bullets bounce off your armor but if need be they can call SWAT or military or whip out their illegal arms shipment and at least make you think whether or not you want to risk some STUN damage from them for pissing them off right now.

[Tungsten Shephard]

25+25 sounds good. Cop/Soldier

 

Ok here is my basic Soldier at LOW points. Now I have not even added background skills just "normal" things acquired in basic training.

 

Basic low powered Infantryman out of boot camp

 

Player: NPC (made with Hero Designer)

 

Val Char Cost

13 STR 3

13 DEX 9

13 CON 6

12 BODY 4

12 INT 2

11 EGO 2

13 PRE 3

10 COM 0

 

3 PD 0

3 ED 0

3 SPD 7

6 REC 0

26 END 0

26 STUN 0

 

7" RUN 2

2" SWIM 0

2 1/2" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 38

 

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

Basic HTH combat Training

4 1) Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

4 2) Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

5 3) Kick: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 6 1/2d6 Strike

3 4) Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 2 1/2d6 +v/5, Target Falls

4 5) Punch: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 4 1/2d6 Strike

3 6) Jab: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, 4 1/2d6 Strike

Martial Arts Cost: 23

 

Cost Skill

9 WF: Clubs, Common Melee Weapons, Emplaced Weapons, Fist-Loads, Small Arms, Unarmed Combat, Grenade Launchers, Shoulder-Fired Weapons, Vehicle Weapons

18 CSL's +3 OCV with HTH and Ranged Combat

3 Teamwork 12-

3 Tactics 11-

3 Weapon Systems Operation 11-

4 Survival (Temperate/Subtropical, Desert) 11-

5 Accurate Sprayfire

Skills Cost: 45

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 106

 

Pts. Disadvantage

10 Social Limitation: Under orders (Frequently, Major, Not Limiting In Some Cultures)

15 Military Oversight: 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

Disadvantage Points: 25

Base Points: 25

Experience Required: 56

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

 

 

 

Sorry I was trying to go 25+25 but I easily ran out of points as you can see.

 

In defense of my argument for more realistic costs, I think your way off point base. Nothing personal but 25+25 is substantially wrong.

 

 

 

BTW I would never use the above character. My basic infantrymen is a bit more 75+75.

[Alibear]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I'm wrong? What happened to opinions, no bad fun, and all that stuff?

 

You give your basic infantryman 23 points in Martial Arts. 13 points more than a black belt has to take and 3 skill levels in it to boot. And I'm wrong?

 

Your basic Infantryman trains more in Martial arts than a black belt? How long is basic training in the US Army cos my dojo takes 5 years on average to make Dan... and I'm wrong?

 

I won't question the other skills, apart from the 3 skill levels which I think is way, way too much for a basic infantryman.

 

The stat inflation I would question too. normal people start at 8s across the board. I'd put soldiers at 10's across the board apart from ego which I'd stick at 11 and con which I'd make 13. I would give them 3 speed if they had seen any real combat. The kind where blokes were trying to kill them and they shot back.

 

I could make a basic GI in 50 points very easily.

 

edit: now this is petty but why give an extra inch of running? Do they teach you to run quickly in the US Army or only for a long time?

 

You are wrong.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I would also like to point out that the requirements for both Law enforcement and U.S. Military personnel have vastly improved over the last two decades. This is due in part for requirement for using new hight tech equipment, scanners, computers, gadgets, etc. This is also do in part in a change in warfare theory. Basic Training now includes some basic elements formally left to special forces in the 80's and early 90's.

 

This includes but is not limited to.

Computer Systems operation 3 points

Combat Driving 3 points

Parachuting 3 points

and about 9 points worth in other related KS skills.

 

Even some expert knowledge in some background skills such as PS: Lawyer, Doctor etc... is not uncommon. Especially for weekend warriors or the national guard.

 

For example when we liberated Iraq. It was a simple lawyer from Minnesota, a sergeant in the Army national guard, who wrote both the new constitution and legal procedures for that country. Not some bureaucrat from Washington or a Bar induced Diplomat.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Well lets define normal vs. competent normal.

 

For a start I think we can agree that John McCain is a normal 150 point HERO doing extraordinary things...

 

Sorry, it took me a minute to figure out who you were talking about, because I paused here before reading the rest of your post. Just thought I would share this little moment with the board...

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Nobody's wrong looks to me, just different styles. My basic infantryman is probably somewhere between you guys versions but that doesn't make me right. I can certainly have hyper competent normals but most aren't to make them stand out as special also. In my thinking you BASIC infantryman is like the guys that the action hero kills tons of. I go for cinematic or comic reality myself and low point just cops or soldiers works out ok. Any class of person can always have exceptional members.

[Alibear]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I would also like to point out that the requirements for both Law enforcement and U.S. Military personnel have vastly improved over the last two decades. This is due in part for requirement for using new hight tech equipment, scanners, computers, gadgets, etc. This is also do in part in a change in warfare theory. Basic Training now includes some basic elements formally left to special forces in the 80's and early 90's.

 

This includes but is not limited to.

Computer Systems operation 3 points

Combat Driving 3 points

Parachuting 3 points

and about 9 points worth in other related KS skills.

 

Even some expert knowledge in some background skills such as PS: Lawyer, Doctor etc... is not uncommon. Especially for weekend warriors or the national guard.

 

For example when we liberated Iraq. It was a simple lawyer from Minnesota, a sergeant in the Army national guard, who wrote both the new constitution and legal procedures for that country. Not some bureaucrat from Washington or a Bar induced Diplomat.

 

The Saturday Soldier has obviously legal training in his Mon - Fri job. Not any National Guardsman could have done that. I'm sure it wasn't a competition that all guards entered one quiet afternoon.

 

All soldiers have combat driving? And combat parachuting? We live in different worlds.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

You give your basic infantryman 23 points in Martial Arts. 13 points more than a black belt has to take and 3 skill levels in it to boot. And I'm wrong?

 

Most Black Belts are casual by nature thus 5 years 1 hour a week and some practice at home casually. Those serious about it can reach Black Belt in about 2 weeks if all they did was train like they do in Basic Training. (see Karate Kid for details)

 

The martial training in many countries exceeds our own military. The Philippines is a great example of this. They train 4 hours a day just in HTH combat. Their Escrima techniques are far deadlier than what we train our basic troops with and worth more in HERO points. Oddly enough this is because the Philippines can't afford enough ammunition for practice so they don't. Thats why my standard U.S. Infantry guy is +3 CSL's for HTH and ranged combat. 23 points is very basic at best IMO and I will agree that you can earn a black belt with only knowing 3 maneuvers quite well. (once again see Karate Kid for details)

 

Escrima Page 17 Ultimate Martial Arts

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

Arnis/Kali/Escrima

4 1) Body Shift: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +5 DCV, Dodge, Affects All Attacks, Abort

4 2) De Cadena: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

4 3) Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, Disarm; 20 STR to Disarm roll

4 4) Nerve Strike: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, 2d6 NND

4 5) Pattern Strike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike, Must Follow Block

4 6) Redonda/Punch: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +0 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike

4 7) Sinawai/Kick: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike

5 8) Takeaway: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab Weapon, 20 STR to take weapon away

3 9) Takedown: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon Strike; Target Falls

4 10) Weapon Bind: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Bind, 20 STR

0 11) Weapon Element: Clubs

1 12) Weapon Element: Blades

1 13) Weapon Element: Karate Weapons

1 14) Weapon Element: Chain & Rope Weapons

1 15) Weapon Element: Empty Hand

Martial Arts Cost: 44

 

Cost Skill

Arnis/Kali/Escrima

2 1) KS: Arnis 11-

2 2) KS: Kali 11-

2 3) KS: Escrima 11-

2 4) PS: Moro-moro Dancing 11-

1 5) WF: Blades

1 6) WF: Karate Weapons

1 7) WF: Chain & Rope Weapons

1 8) WF: Off Hand

Skills Cost: 12

 

 

Sorry, it took me a minute to figure out who you were talking about, because I paused here before reading the rest of your post. Just thought I would share this little moment with the board...

 

Sorry I meant 75+75 basic HERO, with at least 50 in exp. Sorry I did not clarify.

 

The Saturday Soldier has obviously legal training in his Mon - Fri job. Not any National Guardsman could have done that. I'm sure it wasn't a competition that all guards entered one quiet afternoon.

 

There is a funny story behind that as the man's commanding officer at the time goes to my church. The man in question was the only one with any legal background in the area, so he got the job. Just a national guardsman doing his job.

 

Social disadvantage Under Orders FTL.

[Jaxom]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Note that whether you like the NPC that was built here (and personlly, I agree with Ali that he's probably better statted and skilled than I would normally expect) that I specifically said to include the points for the weapons since in a supers campaign everyone is paying for all their equipment with points.

 

Since we're talking a Supers genre, I have no qualms asking you to include those weapons in the calculations... So give me a couple of grenades, an assault rifle, a radio, etc. Even with the inexpensive build that Ali and I would favor you wind up with a *lot* of points.

 

The point I was getting at is if you look at the equipment alone for SWAT or military, that should be 20-25 points. Add in a squad of 8 with teamwork 8- and you're combining three of the 8 attacks into a single attack. Yes, it should make a Hero pause and think. Not deadly, but you don't do the old Cosby routine either... "What was that? A fly? A Fly just landed on us?"

[Alibear]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Don't be bloody silly. I train twice for 1.5hours in the dojo a week. Hard. I've cut down since #1 son came along. I used to train 3 times a week. Hard. Most guys going for Dan train 4 or 5 times a week as do some Dan grades.

 

 

Anywhore, you can take all the maneuvers from the book and all the Weapon elements but that doesn't mean that everyone uses them all when they get into trouble.

 

I asked my instructor what he used when he fought for the German National team (before semi contact was ever heard of) or when he was in the pub and he only ever used a Martial punch.

 

What we do in the dojo and what we do when some nutjob comes at you with a knife are not even remotely similar.

 

 

a link to my club (in German)

http://www.karate-sv1880.de/trainer.html

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Karate Kid's extreme martial training/talent are his powers/sfx and the above is being unnecessarily pedantic' date=' IMO (and a little insulting).[/quote']I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to be insulting at all. I did mean to be pedantic, though. It's a weakness of mine.

 

Actually I largely agree with your opinion as far NPC/normal stats go..

Thanks. I just had the compulsion to clarify /exactly/ what I was talking about when I said 'normal.' On-line OCD, maybe.

[nexus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to be insulting at all. I did mean to be pedantic, though. It's a weakness of mine.

 

Thanks. I just had the compulsion to clarify /exactly/ what I was talking about when I said 'normal.' On-line OCD, maybe.

 

No problem. Honestly, I've had slight migraine for most of the day so I'm being more short than I should be.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Note that whether you like the NPC that was built here (and personlly, I agree with Ali that he's probably better statted and skilled than I would normally expect) that I specifically said to include the points for the weapons since in a supers campaign everyone is paying for all their equipment with points.

 

The infantryman I wrote up, I did when you were posting. He is not my submission for your challenge. Just my response to cops and infantry being 25+25. I'm working on your challenge right now.

[Legatus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Most Black Belts are casual by nature thus 5 years 1 hour a week and some practice at home casually. Those serious about it can reach Black Belt in about 2 weeks if all they did was train like they do in Basic Training. (see Karate Kid for details)

 

I think this example illustrates it quite well. You're not being consistent with your arguments. On the one hand you give examples from the real world. On the other hand you tell us to look at Karate Kid for details. ???

 

The HERO system is a rules system to roleplay the world of superheroes, it is not the real world. It is not even describing the real world via rule terms. So every GM has to create a game world of his own. Your standard soldiers could easily be super agents in my game world. And you cannot tell me that I'm wrong, because it is my world and I decide what the stats will look like for a standard soldier.

 

IMO a soldier can reach +1 in HTH combat skill levels in 2 weeks of HTH training and not even one move of martial arts. To learn martial arts maneuvers takes months. Everything else is just a small combat bonus. But that is the way in my game world.

 

And I'm not talking about the real world, because it cannot be packed in game statistics. If you say a soldier can earn a black belt and 23 points of martial arts in two weeks, so be it, but that's gotta be your game world.