Telekinesis Super.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I totally disagree.

 

TK gives you the incredible option of utilizing (and abusing) your environment with a FREE indirect advantage. You can't throw a truck full of rocket fuel anywhere you want it with EB. You can't transport a teammate into an advanced position with a Mind Blast. You can’t non-lethally subdue and transport innocents and/or villains at range with any other power (and then choose to exact a portion of, or your entire damage if the person resists). Maybe most importantly, you can't catch a damsel in distress that is falling to her doom, even at ranges beyond your half or even full move, with RKA.

 

The Stretching option is a reasonable facsimile for TK in all but 2 distinct areas. First, Stretching lacks the effective range of TK. With a few Range Skill Levels a TK practitioner can become incredibly effective at long distances. Second, without an advantage (or advantages) that increases its cost Stretching leaves a "limb" that is accessible to detection and attack due to the lack of inherent indirect cosmetics.

 

EDIT: Oooo.. With the Stretching option you're also affected by Damage Shields... Ouch!

 

The only benefit to the Stretching option for TK is the use of Martial Arts at range. But I believe that that’s easily enough replicated (for TK) with basic HTH and attack levels bought separately and limited to TK.

 

Of course, this game is so awesome that we can have our cake and eat it too!~

 

I am curious as to why you are so opposed to combining TK with MA's.

 

I ask because it sounds as though you are not necessarily opposed to the increased damage potential on its own since you have proposed alternatives that do this.

[gmurie]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I am curious as to why you are so opposed to combining TK with MA's.

 

I ask because it sounds as though you are not necessarily opposed to the increased damage potential on its own since you have proposed alternatives that do this.

 

Three reasons:

 

1) Most importantly, the enjoyment of the other players. If one of my players wants to have a real martial artist who uses those attacks as they are intended and you have some STR:40 TK monster using all those attacks from the other side of the board and making the other player generally feel like a tool for playing a CHARACTER instead of a RULES MANIPULATION, that's going to make the game a bad experience for the other player. As a GM I'll side with the players who aren't trying to exploit the rules system in ways that were clearly not intended by the designers.

 

2) Because it doesn't make a lick of sense to anyone who isn't exclusively focussed on the rules, and bending those rules to their advantage.

 

3) Because it's overpowered, and I don't want a game in which half or more of my players are creating TK Martial Arts characters, and other players are left with characters that either must compete by exploiting the rules in some other manner, or just live with the munchkins dominating every combat.

 

Hero is a very flexible system, but just because you CAN build things like Teleport, Flight, or Extradimensional Movement as an attack doesn't mean the GM should allow it.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I personally don't mind my players using TK with Martial Arts maneuvers with fine manipulation, however, I require a -2 DC's for the attacks. Furthermore in my games the TK may not use Find Weakness with TK as this also leads to imbalance play style aspects. TK just by itself is way too utilitarian "as is" since you can potentially nullify your need for a Brick, Martial Artist, and Energy Projector sub type supers at the cost of one supers power.

 

I can see where gmurie in coming from however. As TK can cause a player to say "WTF" when comparing his Martial Artist to the TK guru who is having a far better effect than the MA Super with find weakness.

 

One of my supers has aoe effects with his TK. A common maneuver he uses is, "I pull the pins on all of the hand grenades in the area using TK with fine manipulation". That alone can be done with 5 STR TK with a large AOE

 

Hard to argue the effectiveness of his tactics.

 

I saw this in a TK Elemental Control and thought it was a very cool effect.

Telekinesis (5 STR), Fine Manipulation, Area Of Effect (32" Radius; +2), Selective (+1/4), Conforming (+1/2) (66 Active Points); Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) [Real Cost 53]

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I think there is some confusion over the differences between the special effect "x" and the HERO power "X".

 

*x/X= telekinesis in this case but the same issue has occurred recently with teleportation as well.

 

GM's that use DC limits in their game should always be aware of the special circumstances of Martial Art maneuvers and a Haymaker. If a character can deliver a 12 DC normal attack without a Haymaker he can deliver a 16 DC one with it. Depending on the DC bonus of the maneuver a dedicated Martial Artist might be maxed at 12-14 DC's even if he uses Haymaker instead of his best MA maneuver.

 

This is an issue regardless of whether telekinesis the special effect or power is involved.

[Chronosnight]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

In our Wed game, Goldenage and I had a long discussion about MA, one of the characters I helped another player build has 3 basic "Comic Book MA" moves (grab strike and block) GA feels that no player should have MA unless they are a martial artist, you know with a doojo and a trainer, spending time each night practicing etc. (GA I I don't want to put words in your mouth so if I am describing this wrong please pipe up). I personally don't agree with this but the idea might help understand why he is adamant about the "no MA with TK". I know that I am personaly no ninja but I have been in many fights in my life and therefor I think I know how to throw a better punch, and block a little better then someone like my girlfriend. I don't spend hours in a doojo so I don't think I should have access to more then 3 or so MA's, make sense?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

In our Wed game' date=' Goldenage and I had a long discussion about MA, one of the characters I helped another player build has 3 basic "Comic Book MA" moves (grab strike and block) GA feels that no player should have MA unless they are a martial artist, you know with a doojo and a trainer, spending time each night practicing etc. (GA I I don't want to put words in your mouth so if I am describing this wrong please pipe up). I personally don't agree with this but the idea might help understand why he is adamant about the "no MA with TK". I know that I am personaly no ninja but I have been in many fights in my life and therefor I think I know how to throw a better punch, and block a little better then someone like my girlfriend. I don't spend hours in a doojo so I don't think I should have access to more then 3 or so MA's, make sense?[/quote']

 

Thanks for the explanation.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

In our Wed game' date=' Goldenage and I had a long discussion about MA, one of the characters I helped another player build has 3 basic "Comic Book MA" moves (grab strike and block) GA feels that no player should have MA unless they are a martial artist, you know with a doojo and a trainer, spending time each night practicing etc. (GA I I don't want to put words in your mouth so if I am describing this wrong please pipe up). I personally don't agree with this but the idea might help understand why he is adamant about the "no MA with TK". I know that I am personaly no ninja but I have been in many fights in my life and therefor I think I know how to throw a better punch, and block a little better then someone like my girlfriend. I don't spend hours in a doojo so I don't think I should have access to more then 3 or so MA's, make sense?[/quote']

 

Close

 

It's the "Art" aspect of Martial Arts that I'm hung up on.

 

In my campaign... (just personal preference, mind you):

 

To gain the awesome abilities of martial maneuvers a practitioner of Martial Arts must dedicate his life (or a good portion of it) to learning a complicated system of fighting. This system may also combine a great deal of spiritual understanding as well.

 

The Martial Artist has mastered his "pallet" of techniques and is able to entwine them together to create a fluid expression of passive and aggressive melee interaction. Assiduous training and repetition of complicated maneuvers condition the mind and body to act on instinct while constant conditioning allows the body to adapt to extreme forces that would otherwise be intolerable.

 

This is not to say that many individuals can't become acutely adept at martial combat. Hero is adaptive enough to allow this to be expressed as well. It's easy enough for players to incorporate extra DC's and Skill Levels into their character creation to express enhanced fighting skills.

 

Chronosnight wrote:

I know that I am personaly no ninja but I have been in many fights in my life and therefor I think I know how to throw a better punch, and block a little better then someone like my girlfriend.

And if Chronosnight ever got into a fight with a normal (or a girl, god forbid) he might do fairly well (perhaps expressed in game terms as a higher DEX, SPEED, STR or an extra Skill Level and maybe a few more DC's). But I'll guarantee you that a true Martial Artist would wipe the floor with him!

 

Three reasons:

 

1) Most importantly, the enjoyment of the other players. If one of my players wants to have a real martial artist who uses those attacks as they are intended and you have some STR:40 TK monster using all those attacks from the other side of the board and making the other player generally feel like a tool for playing a CHARACTER instead of a RULES MANIPULATION, that's going to make the game a bad experience for the other player. As a GM I'll side with the players who aren't trying to exploit the rules system in ways that were clearly not intended by the designers.

 

2) Because it doesn't make a lick of sense to anyone who isn't exclusively focussed on the rules, and bending those rules to their advantage.

 

3) Because it's overpowered, and I don't want a game in which half or more of my players are creating TK Martial Arts characters, and other players are left with characters that either must compete by exploiting the rules in some other manner, or just live with the munchkins dominating every combat.

 

Hero is a very flexible system, but just because you CAN build things like Teleport, Flight, or Extradimensional Movement as an attack doesn't mean the GM should allow it.

 

I totally agree with these arguments for limiting access to Martial Arts. Especially #1. I guess I'm just not a fan of hybrid characters. I prefer players to "own" their character archetype and enjoy the benefits of being "THAT" guy or gal. Sure, there's always room for overlap, and characterization always wins out over power in the end, but I tend to champion the archetypal superheroes over "multi-tool" concepts.

 

My reasoning actually goes deeper and this could quickly become a philosophical diatribe with no end (just ask Chronosnight), so I'll spare you all.

 

Suffice to say... In Epic City, it is what it is.

[Tonio]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

Close

 

It's the "Art" aspect of Martial Arts that I'm hung up on.

 

In my campaign... (just personal preference, mind you):

 

To gain the awesome abilities of martial maneuvers a practitioner of Martial Arts must dedicate his life (or a good portion of it) to learning a complicated system of fighting. This system may also combine a great deal of spiritual understanding as well.

 

The Martial Artist has mastered his "pallet" of techniques and is able to entwine them together to create a fluid expression of passive and aggressive melee interaction. Assiduous training and repetition of complicated maneuvers condition the mind and body to act on instinct while constant conditioning allows the body to adapt to extreme forces that would otherwise be intolerable.

 

This is not to say that many individuals can't become acutely adept at martial combat. Hero is adaptive enough to allow this to be expressed as well. It's easy enough for players to incorporate extra DC's and Skill Levels into their character creation to express enhanced fighting skills.

 

I think you're entwining mechanics and SFX here. Just like you can have an Energy Blast without having a character based around the manipulation of energy, or a Ranged Killing Attack without having a character dedicated to killing people at range, you can have a character with Martial Arts who is nonetheless not dedicated to the art of physical hand-to-hand combat. Martial Arts as a game mechanics concept involves the use of certain maneuvers which are slightly to significantly superior to the basic usage of the attack in question. Martial Arts as a special effect, or character concept, involves a dedication to a discipline.

 

The name could've just as easily been "Advanced Combat Maneuvers", or maybe even "Custom Combat Maneuvers". Hell, the book even mentions how you could use MAs to build some animal's fighting style, I believe. A maneuver which enhances a Strike by adding DCV could represent some sort of guarded punch in some martial art, but it could also represent a 4-legged creature's attack where they flatten out while lunging to avoid being hit.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I think you're entwining mechanics and SFX here. Just like you can have an Energy Blast without having a character based around the manipulation of energy, or a Ranged Killing Attack without having a character dedicated to killing people at range, you can have a character with Martial Arts who is nonetheless not dedicated to the art of physical hand-to-hand combat. Martial Arts as a game mechanics concept involves the use of certain maneuvers which are slightly to significantly superior to the basic usage of the attack in question. Martial Arts as a special effect, or character concept, involves a dedication to a discipline.

 

The name could've just as easily been "Advanced Combat Maneuvers", or maybe even "Custom Combat Maneuvers".

It's mostly about cost. To obtain the unique abilities of martial maneuvers at their reduced "Martial Arts" costs (in Epic City) you must be a Martial Artist. If you wish to be a "Advanced HTH Combatant" then you can achieve the same effects as Martial Arts maneuvers by purchasing the appropriate Skill and Damage bonuses normally.

 

Hell' date=' the book even mentions how you could use MAs to build some animal's fighting style, I believe. A maneuver which enhances a Strike by adding DCV could represent some sort of guarded punch in some martial art, but it could also represent a 4-legged creature's attack where they flatten out while lunging to avoid being hit.[/quote']

What I said above applies to just this sort of approach to utilizing Martial Arts outside of my defined parameters. I said:

... it is not an option in Epic City (Though I'm always open to an incredibly well thought out and deep reasoning to the contrary).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

It's mostly about cost. To obtain the unique abilities of martial maneuvers at their reduced "Martial Arts" costs (in Epic City) you must be a Martial Artist. If you wish to be a "Advanced HTH Combatant" then you can achieve the same effects as Martial Arts maneuvers by purchasing the appropriate Skill and Damage bonuses normally.

 

 

What I said above applies to just this sort of approach to utilizing Martial Arts outside of my defined parameters. I said:

 

So it's a house rule. That's cool.

 

So do any cops or soldiers in this world have the Commando Training (the Martial Art from UMA page 23)?

 

Do any of the criminals have the Dirty Infighting/Fisticuffs/Cinematic Brawling (UMA page 24)?

[GoldenAge]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

So it's a house rule. That's cool.

 

So do any cops or soldiers in this world have the Commando Training (the Martial Art from UMA page 23)?

 

Do any of the criminals have the Dirty Infighting/Fisticuffs/Cinematic Brawling (UMA page 24)?

 

Some military experts have martial arts... It's understood that these individuals spend a great deal of time in training and maintaining their unique skills (in HTH, ranged and tactical arenas). However, the majority of "special operatives" (such as INSEC, GENEX, and SWAT officers) utilize extra Skill Levels and Ranged Skill Levels, as well as extra DCs and high-tech weaponry (equipped with scopes, laser mounts, gyro stabilizers, depleted uranium slugs, HECKLE [High Energy Coherent Kelvin and Light Emitters], etc - bought as additional Skill Levels, Ranged Skill Levels and increased Stun Multipliers) to lessen the gap between themselves and paranormal beings.

 

A life on the street where day-to-day survival is a matter of continuously fighting for dominance is equal (in my eyes) to constant martial arts training. Thus, there are a few individual NPCs in my campaign that have Dirty Infighting techniques.

 

Overall though, I've never used a "straight" MA from the books. I prefer to customize a character's martial art style to his or her particular situation.

[Eavesdrop]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I know that I am personaly no ninja but I have been in many fights in my life and therefor I think I know how to throw a better punch' date=' and block a little better then someone like my girlfriend. I don't spend hours in a doojo so I don't think I should have access to more then 3 or so MA's, make sense?[/quote']

 

What you have over your g/f is maybe a CV or two in a particular manuever like "punch" or "block".

 

I was seriously into Taekwondo from about 93-04 (and have trained off an on since - I moved away from our dojang). A martial artist with a Black Belt (which you get through intense training over about 3 1/2 to 4 years at a reputable school) will have 4-5 of the basic manuevers of that art (with all the CV bonuses) . . . a brown belt might have 1-3 of those maneuvers. Obviously, some really talented individuals could pick the skills with less training, but were I gm'ing someone that said "I want to make a UFC fighter with a lot of fighting ability who only had been training for a year or so" I'd say give him Hand-to-Hand skill levels and 1-3 manuevers.

 

In real life, an experience Black Belt could go one of two ways - either buying up more of the Art's maneuvers or adding lots of skill levels with the Art. Some folks take the "master of a handful of maneuvers" approach while others take a "jack of all trades" approach. Each have valid applications.

 

I would also say that IMHO, once you've gained the martial arts knowledge, it goes into muscle memory. Even though I haven't trained much over the last several years, when I have gone back to visit the old school, my techniques aren't that "rusty" . . . my stamina isn't what it was, but the actual use of the art is kinda like riding a bike. Were I to GM someone that wasn't constantly training, I'd have that character make a guy with less END than someone in their "prime", not allow the use of some or all of their combat skill levels until they "got back in practice", but still allow use of the actual maneuvers that they had learned.

 

My 2 cents - of course its a game here and feel free to not let real life intrude LOL

 

Troy

[Chronosnight]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I don't know that all seems a little crazy to me...instead of being able to take 2 or 3 MA that only work for those 2 or 3 moves I inserted get to buy +2 DC and +2 Combat skill levels!?! So now any crazy ass blow I do, gets my DC's and Skill Levels?! Good god why not just give me 2 or 3 "Comic Book Martial Arts" moves?! Most MA's give you between +1-2 to either OCV/DCV and generally take away from the other and +2 DC...There is the Martial Dodge move which is +5, but if my super hero who apparently can't do and martial arts because he doesn't live in a doojoo, does a reg dodge, +3, and use my Skill levels in DCV and turn that into a 5...? Btw +2 DC (8 points) and +2 skill levels (10 points) 3 combat maneuvers 15 points... not a huge diff in points here. Am I missing something?

[Eavesdrop]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

Tanner,

 

what I'm getting at is that you (with a little bit of experience having been in a few fights) probably have a +1 with "punch" and a higher DEX and ST compared to your g/f. In real life (obviously, we're trying to translate this into game terms) the difference between you and a Black Belt (from a reputable school) would be great (unless you're a tremendous athlete or a lot more experienced in fighting that you've suggested). All the advantages gained from buying Martial Arts maneuvers assume extensive training and experience.

 

Probably a better way to simulate the difference between yourself and your g/f in fighting terms would be to "buy" her the Psyc. Lim. "Completely unfamiliar with physical combat" or something such.

 

The above discussion really is a summary of long discussions that we had in one of my old gaming groups from early in my Martial Arts career (that included several black belts who were also experienced gamers). Of course, this discussion of interpretation of Martial Arts in a game is better suited to a HERO level game than a SUPERHERO level one.

 

Troy

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

We seem to have 2 distinct discussions going on right now.

 

One regarding the application of realistic martial arts to a superhero setting.

 

Another about the consistent application of Hero's Martial Art rules to its combat mechanics.

 

The 2 have very little to do with one another.

[Vestnik]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

Who would win in a fight, Tanner's girlfriend or Mechanon? Time for a vs. thread!

[Chronosnight]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

Sorry Troy my post was aimed more at GA then at you, I do understand where you are coming form (although I have personally spent a great deal of my life in MA classes). I just don't get where GA can say its better to take CSL's and DC's instead of MA's. I personally feel that it should be the other way around, someone with DC's and CSL's would imply a more compitiant(sp?) well rounded Martial Artist then one with 2 or 3 MA's.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I was thinking of the list Sean gave:

 

4 Choke Hold -2 +0 Grab One Limb; 2d6 NND

4 Martial Disarm -1 +1 Disarm; 50 STR to Disarm

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 50 STR for holding on

4 Martial Strike +0 +2 10d6 Strike

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 8d6 +v/5, Target Falls

5 Offensive Strike -2 +1 12d6 Strike

1 Weapon Element: Telekinesis: Default Element, Empty Hand

 

Choke Hold makes sense; Disarm and Grab make sense; the others I'm having problems with.

 

One solution is that you can allow certain maneouvres, like the strike ones, only when at zero range i.e. when using TK 'genuinely' in melee.

 

OTOH, it is just a label: you can buy Offensive Shot and Quick Shot for ranged martial arts which do very similar things to Offensive astrike and martial strike.

[Chronosnight]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

Oh Well, thanks for all the good input on TK, I know some of it will get used! As it turns out Eclipse lived through the last encounter (had to push most of my end into body but hey, I lived!) I am still going to finish my Cosmic Hero Star Diver, I will post the finished product soon. Thanks again!

[GoldenAge]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I don't know that all seems a little crazy to me...instead of being able to take 2 or 3 MA that only work for those 2 or 3 moves I inserted get to buy +2 DC and +2 Combat skill levels!?! So now any crazy ass blow I do' date=' gets my DC's and Skill Levels?! Good god why not just give me 2 or 3 "Comic Book Martial Arts" moves?! Most MA's give you between +1-2 to either OCV/DCV and generally take away from the other and +2 DC...There is the Martial Dodge move which is +5, but if my super hero who apparently can't do and martial arts because he doesn't live in a doojoo, does a reg dodge, +3, and use my Skill levels in DCV and turn that into a 5...? Btw +2 DC (8 points) and +2 skill levels (10 points) 3 combat maneuvers 15 points... not a huge diff in points here. Am I missing something?[/quote']

YES! Specifically:

Most importantly, the enjoyment of the other players. If one of my players wants to have a real martial artist who uses those attacks as they are intended and you have some STR:40 TK monster using all those attacks from the other side of the board and making the other player generally feel like a tool for playing a CHARACTER instead of a RULES MANIPULATION, that's going to make the game a bad experience for the other player. As a GM I'll side with the players who aren't trying to exploit the rules system in ways that were clearly not intended by the designers.

My House Rules aren’t up for interpretation. As I said above, they are what they are. I’m happy to do the lion’s share of work so that you can be entertained, but I have to enjoy the games too. This rule is one way that I can ensure my sensibilities are reflected in a game that I’ve created and produced.

 

Per the ULTIMATE MARTIAL ARTIST 5th edition:

Pg. 10 - LEARNING MARTIAL ARTS

Building a martial artist at the start of a campaign usually poses few problems — the character needs, typically, at least ten points’ worth of martial arts maneuvers from one style, an 8- roll in the Knowledge Skill of that style, and the Style Distinctive Feature. But things get a little more complicated when characters want to use Experience Points to improve their martial arts or buy new martial arts abilities.

Further it states:

Sometimes an existing character wants to learn a martial arts style from the ground up. Finding a teacher depends on plot and storytelling, things for the player and GM to work out. But the actual acquisition of the abilities requires the character to spend Experience Points, and that requires rules.

First, the character should spend at least one point for a Knowledge Skill with his style. Characters shouldn’t learn any maneuvers before taking the KS. etc.

And later:

Pg. 88 - DESIGNING MARTIAL ARTS STYLES

Designing a martial arts style is a three-step process:

First: Come up with a style conception — the principles governing the martial art, what effect those principles have on types of maneuvers the style includes, what those maneuvers look like, and so forth.

Second: Choose maneuvers corresponding to the principles in the style conception. In most cases you should be able to pick maneuvers from the standard list on page 9; sometimes you’ll have to use the rules presented below to design all-new maneuvers.

Third: Now you design the style by taking the maneuvers, then adding special Style Elements, determining the Skills associated with the style, deciding whether the style qualifies for a Style Distinctive Feature, and so forth.

I like to interpret this in a way that makes the ART as important as the maneuvers that comprise a Martial Art’s application. Players that want to build a Martial Art are required (in EPIC CITY) to create a style as well as compile a group of martial maneuvers. This (usually) includes a teacher, a history of the style, and much more. Players (like Tanner) who simply want to pump up an existing character with cheap maneuvers can do so by buying standard Skill Levels and DCs.

 

If you’re worried that extra DC’s make you too powerful because they add damage to EVERYTHING you do (though I’ve NEVER seen you attack without using a martial maneuver) simply use Skill Levels. By purchasing 3 point Skill Levels for your tight group of attack maneuvers (Punch, Move By, Move Through – or any 3) you can allocate bonuses to either OCV or DCV. In addition you can add damage without additional Damage Classes:

USES OF COMBAT SKILL LEVELS - Damage, Superheroic Campaigns:

Superheroic characters can use two CSLs to add +1 BODY to the damage done by a Killing Damage attack, or +3 STUN to the damage done by a Normal Damage attack. (This bonus adds to the overall damage, before the STUN Multiplier, if any, is applied; it doesn’t add to each die of damage.) This applies to both HTH and Ranged attacks. However, this added damage cannot make the attack or weapon exceed the normal maximum damage it can do.

 

Now, as for cost…your example was a bit too simple. There are Martial Maneuvers that combine a great deal more into their reduced pricing structure. Take this list of Speedster Martial Arts (since you’re playing a Speedster) for example:

 

5) Flying Dodge - OCV:+0/DCV:+4 ----------- Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove

5) Flying Grab – OCV: -2/DCV: -1 ------------ Grab Two Limbs, +10 STR for holding on; FMove

5) Flying Throw – OCV:-1/DCV: -2 ----------- Grab Two Limbs; STR +v/5; Target Falls; FMove

5) Passing Disarm – OCV:-1/DCV: -1 --------- Disarm, +10 STR to Disarm roll; FMove

5) Passing Strike – OCV:+1/DCV:+0 ---------- STR +v/5; FMove

5) Passing Throw – OCV:+0/DCV:+0 --------- STR +v/5; Target Falls; FMove

5) Rapid Punch – OCV:+1/DCV: -2 ------------ STR +4d6 Strike

 

The actual cost of these maneuvers would certainly eclipse 4 or 5 points…

 

Flying Grab would actually be a Grab By: OCV: -3/DCV: -4 (though you WOULD get +V/5 to STR which balances out) Add 4 Skill Levels to bring the OCV/DCV penalties to the same level of the MA and you’d have to spend 12 Active Points.

 

I’m sure a creative MinMaxer could do a better job pointing out the maneuver in standard powers, but I hope you’re getting my point. At the very basic levels the cost SHOULD be relatively equal. However, the more advanced maneuvers (and combination of maneuvers combined in a Multiple-Power Attack maneuver) are a steal for Martial Artists who balance such bargains with deep background commitments and daily regimens.

 

Brocks get Amazing STR feats (since I don’t require the purchase the purchase of Brick Tricks for every little environment manipulation). Energy Blasters get amazing attacks at range with and the use of specific Combat Maneuvers like Bouncing and Spreading, Speedsters get the highest SPEEDs and DEXs allowed in my game in addition to the joys of continuous Multiple Move Bys. Martial Artists get suites of martial maneuvers that allow them to shine on a playing field normally dominated by paranormals. If I allow anyone to have Martial Arts… everyone will (it’s too easy a way to boost HTH).

 

Some are fans of giant Bricks that also have Martial Arts and maneuvers like Breakfall. Not me. Others don’t have a problem in the world with TKers using Martial Arts at range. Not me. I’d rather have obvious individual archetypes in a game where players can relish in their unique abilities and realize their potential working in tandem as a team. No Superman need apply.

[gmurie]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I guess I'm on the other side from Golden Age about martial arts used as melee attacks as intended. I'm always going to look at character background, personality, and powers.

 

Ferex, I have no problem with the speedster who's scion of a long line of speedsters going back to the Golden Age having "Speedster Martial Arts", or an Energy Projector who's only ability is to shoot a fairly basic set of EBs out of his eyes and practices with them a LOT having "Eyebeam Ranged Kung Fu".

 

Where I might draw the line is if a player presents to me a character sheet as bland and uninteresting as raw tofu (ie zero background info and generic disads) that has a mix of high STR, and EB, and a mix of HtH and ranged martial arts with no clear explanation as to WHY it should have them.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I guess I'm on the other side from Golden Age about martial arts used as melee attacks as intended. I'm always going to look at character background, personality, and powers.

 

Ferex, I have no problem with the speedster who's scion of a long line of speedsters going back to the Golden Age having "Speedster Martial Arts", or an Energy Projector who's only ability is to shoot a fairly basic set of EBs out of his eyes and practices with them a LOT having "Eyebeam Ranged Kung Fu".

 

Where I might draw the line is if a player presents to me a character sheet as bland and uninteresting as raw tofu (ie zero background info and generic disads) that has a mix of high STR, and EB, and a mix of HtH and ranged martial arts with no clear explanation as to WHY it should have them.

 

Based on what you said above we're not too far off. I base the use of Martial Arts in EPIC CITY on detailed and thoughtful background explanations. There are exceptions to every rule. I'm always a sucker for a great story. But I'm obviously a bit more discerning than other GMs of which stories are worthy of Martial Arts.

[Chronosnight]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

Based on what you said above we're not too far off. I base the use of Martial Arts in EPIC CITY on detailed and thoughtful background explanations. There are exceptions to every rule. I'm always a sucker for a great story. But I'm obviously a bit more discerning than other GMs of which stories are worthy of Martial Arts.

 

LOL alright, alright...I understand where you are coming form even if I don't agree .

 

To the rest of the group don't take my posts to GA as being harsh we are good friends in real life and I am a professional complainer

 

GA, Eclipse is going to still kick the butts of the Winters, come next week

[GoldenAge]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

I am a professional complainer

 

And he's the best player I have!!!

 

 

 

Please, just shoot me now.

 

 

[Chronosnight]

Re: Telekinesis Super.

 

Love you too GA.