Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

[nexus]

There was a historical figure named Jesus that existed as a prophet but there was no crucification. He wandered the world, spreading his message but died a natural death according to historical record

 

Disclaimer: Pure speculation and not meant a commentary on anyone's religious beliefs.

[Clonus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

The butterflies are incalculable. It could mean that women aren't barred from the priesthood or that Christianity never catches on as anything except a minor subsect of Judaism.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Needn't be any significant change. The Crucifixion is a dramatic image, but by no means essential to perpetuating a faith. Mohammed, Buddha, Zoroaster, Lao Tzu... none of them were martyred, but the faiths/philosophies they espoused still spread across the world. It might even be argued that Jesus could have had an even more profound impact if he had personally preached for decades longer. (Purely from the point of view of Jesus as historical figure, not as divinity with a predestiny)

[Clonus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Needn't be any significant change. The Crucifixion is a dramatic image' date=' but by no means essential to perpetuating a faith. )[/quote']

 

I was thinking more of the possibility that Christ still being alive means that Paul never gets a chance to take over and retool the religion for greater acceptability to the Romans in general.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

The butterflies are incalculable. It could mean that women aren't barred from the priesthood or that Christianity never catches on as anything except a minor subsect of Judaism.

 

That's pretty much the way it started out, anyway. The central message of the inability of humans to, unaided, make themselves worthy of heaven, and the free offer of forgiveness* to those who are willing to be forgiven is what distinguished core Christian beliefs from most other religions. Without Christ's death on the cross (and the subtext behind that and his resurrection) you have just another Jewish sect.

[Clonus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

That's pretty much the way it started out' date=' anyway. The central message of the inability of humans to, unaided, make themselves worthy of heaven, and the free offer of forgiveness* to those who are willing to be forgiven is what distinguished core Christian beliefs from most other religions. [/quote']

 

The Crucifixion is incorporated into the message of forgiveness but the message isn't dependant on it happening. Other religions managed to spread and individuate without a crucifixion.

[nexus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

I should add that the setting is soft science. Not quite a rubber as Star Trek but not hard science.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

I should add that the setting is soft science. Not quite a rubber as Star Trek but not hard science.

 

Are you sure you're in the right thread? I just answered this response over in the no fossil fuels/no gunpowder thread.

[nexus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Yep, they're all part of the same setting. A "Sliders" style dimension hopping campaign.

[Clonus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

OK, I'd go with "Everyone's a Jew". Jesus Christ is remembered as the Messiah who converted the Roman Emperor to Judaism, and made it the state religion of the Empire. As a result there's a strong social stigma toward anyone who goes around without some kind of headcovering and toward cleanshaven men in North America and Europe. You are obviously foreigners and unbelievers.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

OK' date=' I'd go with "Everyone's a Jew". Jesus Christ is remembered as the Messiah who converted the Roman Emperor to Judaism, and made it the state religion of the Empire. As a result there's a strong social stigma toward anyone who goes around without some kind of headcovering and toward cleanshaven men in North America and Europe. You are obviously foreigners and unbelievers.[/quote']

 

Actually, the head covering thing came along with the persecution of the Jews during the Dark Ages or therabouts. As far as the beard goes, You won't always seen an unshaven male.

 

Judaism101*]Beards

Traditionally, Jewish men wore full beards and long sideburns called in Hebrew peyot (pay-OHT) to observe the commandment in Lev. 19:27 not to round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. There are points of Jewish law that allow some shaving, so you may see Orthodox Jews without full beards or peyot. Chasidic Jews do not follow this leniency. This subject has not yet been addressed in a page.

 

Peyot (pay-OHT) From the phrase Peyot ha-Rosh, meaning Corners of the Head. Traditionally, Jewish men wore long sideburns called in Hebrew peyot (pay-OHT) and full beards to observe the commandment in Lev. 19:27 not to round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. There are points of Jewish law that allow some shaving, so you may see Orthodox Jews without full beards or peyot. Chasidic Jews do not follow this leniency. This subject has not yet been addressed in a page.

I don't think being beardless would necessarily mark you as an outsider. Use a public restroom, however...! Still, the Jews were instructed not to opress the foreigner in their midst. I suspect a society built on those foundations (unless corrupted by the power-hungry Romans) would be a lot more tolerant of strangers than our current society. I imagine that Jewish settlers in the New World would have been more likely to make friends with the natives, except in the case of the ones practicing human sacrifice, cannibalism, or other proscribed behaviors. I imagine they would not necessarily feel that they've got to conquer the heathens either.

 

Of course, I could be completely wrong.

 

*Link!

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Yep' date=' they're all part of the same setting. A "Sliders" style dimension hopping campaign.[/quote']

 

Only three?

[nexus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Only three?

 

These were just three ideas for potential universes that came to me last night and I decided to post to get other input on what they might contain.

[nexus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

I don't think being beardless would necessarily mark you as an outsider. Use a public restroom, however...!

 

I don't know if that would necessarily "out" you. Many men above a certain age in our world are circumsized regardless of religion in the Western world and, well, even a public bathroom I haven't noticed allot of men "letting it all hang out" at the urinals and the "eye level only" rule is generally respected, IME. Locker rooms and areas like that could be a problem.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Actually, the head covering thing came along with the persecution of the Jews during the Dark Ages or therabouts. As far as the beard goes, You won't always seen an unshaven male.

 

I don't think being beardless would necessarily mark you as an outsider. Use a public restroom, however...! Still, the Jews were instructed not to opress the foreigner in their midst. I suspect a society built on those foundations (unless corrupted by the power-hungry Romans) would be a lot more tolerant of strangers than our current society. I imagine that Jewish settlers in the New World would have been more likely to make friends with the natives, except in the case of the ones practicing human sacrifice, cannibalism, or other proscribed behaviors. I imagine they would not necessarily feel that they've got to conquer the heathens either.

 

Of course, I could be completely wrong.

 

*Link!

I could see this jewish society being more militant, after surviving a centuries long war of anhilation with Islam during the 6th and 7th centuries.

 

TB

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

I could see this jewish society being more militant, after surviving a centuries long war of anhilation with Islam during the 6th and 7th centuries.

 

TB

 

Islam might be somewhat different, since Muhammed drew from both Christianity and Judaism (they are the other "People of the Book") when he established Islam. Even if the Muslim Conquests had started on schedule, the forces of Islam would very likely have met a more fully united fromt opposing their western expansion.

 

Even if the Judaic Roman Empire were divided between East and West, as they were in our world, the Western Empire would have been much more willing to rise to the aid of the Eastern Empire in defense of the Temple in Jerusalem. You just can't have a temple anywhere you like. The temple in Jerusalem was the heart and soul of Judaism until it was destroyed in 70 AD (by the Romans in our timeline, of course. Jewish Romans would not have done such a thing). A threat to the Temple in Jerusalem would have been treated as a serious threat to all jews everywhere and the response would very likely have much quicker and more decisive than that of the Byzantine Empire.

 

The Dark Ages might never have happened in such a world. Firstly, the Library of Alexandria would have very likely not been lost. A Jewish Roman Empire would have made it a priority to keep copies of such important documents in Rome (and probably Jerusalem as well). Even if the Muslim Conquests had taken the Holy Land, copies of important documents would have very likely been circulated throughout the Roman Empire(s).

 

Of Course, It just might be that Jesus didn't convert the Roman Emperor. In that case, the Temple would have been destroyed. Without the flag of Christianity to rally around, there would have been somewhat less resistance to the Islamic Expansion, if it did occur. All of Europe Would possibly be Muslim in such a case. The Americas were discovered largely because Europeans were trying to find a way to trade with the Far East themselves instead of having to bargain with Muslim traders (cutting out the middleman is not a new concept). If Europe was Muslim, trading with the East would be relatively easy.

 

Without the discovery of the "New World", the native civilizations might advance to the point where, when they were finally "discovered" by Europeans or Africans (or the Chinese, for that matter) they might be in a better position to resist military incursion than the Natives of our Earth were.

 

Nexus: There's loads more worlds available than the three you suggested, but I suppose you already know that? I think it would be interesting if Ghengis Khan (or someone like him) sent explorers Eastward to conquer what would subsequently not be called the Americas.

[nexus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Nexus: There's loads more worlds available than the three you suggested, but I suppose you already know that?

 

Of course, those were just three that I came up with last night that I thought would be fun to get outside input on. And I do appreciate the suggestions.

[Clonus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

I could see this jewish society being more militant, after surviving a centuries long war of anhilation with Islam during the 6th and 7th centuries.

 

TB

 

Dude, it's the exact same war that Christianity had.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Dude' date=' it's the exact same war that Christianity had.[/quote']If you would examine the history of muslim/jewish interaction (specifically in the Mecca/Medina area) you would know that early Islam had a particular animosity towards Judaism and Jews. Mohammed was directly responsible for the destruction of 3 jewish tribes living in the Mecca area during his lifetime.

 

TB

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

If you would examine the history of muslim/jewish interaction (specifically in the Mecca/Medina area) you would know that early Islam had a particular animosity towards Judaism and Jews. Mohammed was directly responsible for the destruction of 3 jewish tribes living in the Mecca area during his lifetime.

 

TB

That is a much more controversial point than you seem to think. The Prophet (PBUH) had run-ins with many people. His troubles with local Jewish tribes persuaded him that he could not position himself as a Jewish reformer, or something like that. Let's not forget that the Koran was not compiled until a generation or more after the Prophet's death --and for all my respect for him, I am not going to rule out the possibility that the correct verb here is "composed," not "compiled."

Judaism got along just fine under Islamic rule. The one Jewish state that did coexist with Islam, the Khazar khanate (back, conspiracy theorists, back!) got along just fine.

As for the divisions within the Roman Empire --well, the Western Empire ceased to exist in 471AD, mainly because Justinian's court historians said it did. That story happened to work for Italian power groups, which is why the "eastern" Roman empire continued to rule most of Italy south of the Appenines well into the 700s. The role of Jerusalem is pretty trivial here, and I wouldn't underestimate the flexibility of religious thought. A central temple is crucial. Its location in a physical, as opposed to spiritual Jerusalem is another matter. If Rome could be "transferred" to Istanbul, and then to Aachen, the Temple could get where it was needed, too.

Now, the empire that emerged from the chaos of the early Islamic conquests was very different from the earlier one, it's true. But bear in mind one crucial factor: the conquest ended the grain --and of course papyrus-- shipments from Egypt to Istanbul. Just try to imagine the cultural, economic, urban, intellectual consequences of going, overnight, from a city/capital built around massive grain imports to a city/capital functioning as the centre of the local agricultural economy.

Without wanting to sound like a Marxist here, I cannot imagine the Iconoclasm and the break with the Papacy in the late 700s except in this context. Recovery from massive economic dislocation allowed the reestablishment of urban elite culture in Istanbul at the same time that the spread of the reformed Benedictine rule finally gave Western monasteries institutional permanence. The latter was no great change except in that it marks the moment when libraries and archives achieved institutional permanence. The recopying between (and the absence of recopying during the Classical era) has far more to do with our losses of antique literature than the burning of the library of Alexandria.

Which, if not a myth in its entirety, is clearly mostly religious slander. Notice that we cannot even agree on when the legendary burning happened. Don't like Romans? Blame Julius Caesar. Don't like Christians? Blame the mobs that killed Hypatia. Don't like Muslims? Well, that's the story we're working with here. Those guys who say, "I only need one Book," and burn the rest? It's spin doctoring. I have it from a reliable anonymous rource that they sleep with lobbyists, too.

[Clonus]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

If you would examine the history of muslim/jewish interaction (specifically in the Mecca/Medina area) you would know that early Islam had a particular animosity towards Judaism and Jews.

 

TB

 

A century later when the moors are invading Frankland that'll be a closed issue, lost to time and space.

[Maur]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Without the discovery of the "New World"' date=' the native civilizations might advance to the point where, when they were finally "discovered" by Europeans or Africans (or the Chinese, for that matter) they might be in a better position to resist military incursion than the Natives of our Earth were.[/quote']

 

Except that the natives suffered huge losses from disease.

 

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/3_3%20European%20Disease%20in%20the%20New%20World.htm

 

Accounts of history show that disease killed more natives than the weapons the Conquistadors brought with them.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

Except that the natives suffered huge losses from disease.

 

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/3_3%20European%20Disease%20in%20the%20New%20World.htm

 

Accounts of history show that disease killed more natives than the weapons the Conquistadors brought with them.

 

David Henige, "Numbers from Nowhere."

A case where the title says it all.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

No messianic overtones to Jesus = no Christian church as distinct from Judaism. Probably no mass conversion of the Roman Empire. Either some other monotheistic system steps in to fill the void, or polytheism remains the norm in Europe. Perhaps, without a unifying faith to rally around, post-fall-of-Rome, Europe remains fractured and divided for centuries, and might be more susceptible to outside invaders.

[Vestnik]

Re: Alternate Earth 3: Passionless Christ

 

No messianic overtones to Jesus = no Christian church as distinct from Judaism. Probably no mass conversion of the Roman Empire. Either some other monotheistic system steps in to fill the void' date=' or polytheism remains the norm in Europe. [/quote']

 

I suppose one of the other salvation religions (Orphism, Isis worship) that were springing up in Rome might fill the void.