"Never Miss" powers

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

So you're house rule means that Autofire now includes IPE (Invisible Power Effects).

 

And this is an improvement over the RAW (Rules As Written) why?

 

Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

 

I'm referring to the odd idea that it's logical you can jump out of the way of a bullet. You?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

 

I'm referring to the odd idea that it's logical you can jump out of the way of a bullet. You?

 

 

And using the Dodge Maneuver to avoid getting hit by a bullet can be also be described as 'jumping out of the way' as well.

 

You're the one confusing special effects with mechanics.

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

No, he's not.

 

The special effects are indeed that you are jumping out of the way, and could also be so for dodge.

 

The point is, once someone fires a gun, the bullet has essentially hit you. So you have to dive before the attack happens in hopes it will make you harder to hit. It's illogical that you can fire a gun at someone and they can dive out of the way of the bullet after you fire it.

 

The best that diving would be able to do is make it harder for you to be hit. The person firing logically will move his aim to follow you as you dive. Not fire at the spot you were after you dive.

 

So it makes much more dramatic and common sense for you to still be able to be hit by directed attacks when you dive for cover. Just for it to be more difficult. (unless your dive makes it behind cover)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

No, he's not.

 

The special effects are indeed that you are jumping out of the way, and could also be so for dodge.

 

The point is, once someone fires a gun, the bullet has essentially hit you. So you have to dive before the attack happens in hopes it will make you harder to hit. It's illogical that you can fire a gun at someone and they can dive out of the way of the bullet after you fire it.

 

The best that diving would be able to do is make it harder for you to be hit. The person firing logically will move his aim to follow you as you dive. Not fire at the spot you were after you dive.

 

So it makes much more dramatic and common sense for you to still be able to be hit by directed attacks when you dive for cover. Just for it to be more difficult. (unless your dive makes it behind cover)

 

Actually, you have to declare DFC before the dice are rolled, IIRC, so therefore you're diving for it when you realize the shooter/blaster/whatever has his weapon/hand/eyebeams levelled at you. At that point, you decide that you really want to be somewhere else, and you move your butt in the split-second between when his brain tells him to pull the trigger and before he actually does it, so he fires where you aren't.

 

At any rate, the rule works fine as written.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

...

 

The point is, once someone fires a gun, the bullet has essentially hit you.

 

...

 

That is a special effect interpretation.

 

The HERO mechanic best suited to model that sfx is IPE (Invisible Power Effects).

 

I've even made the argument that gunpowder based weapons should have some form of this for sight in other threads.

[Comic]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The point is, once someone fires a gun, the bullet has essentially hit you. So you have to dive before the attack happens in hopes it will make you harder to hit. It's illogical that you can fire a gun at someone and they can dive out of the way of the bullet after you fire it.

 

The best that diving would be able to do is make it harder for you to be hit. The person firing logically will move his aim to follow you as you dive. Not fire at the spot you were after you dive.

 

So it makes much more dramatic and common sense for you to still be able to be hit by directed attacks when you dive for cover. Just for it to be more difficult. (unless your dive makes it behind cover)

 

There's a good deal more social engineering in dodging than dexterity. Logically, no batter could ever hit a baseball thrown by a professional pitcher. They just move too fast, and the distance is too short, if you measure from the moment the ball leaves the pitcher's fingers.

 

It's even worse for cricket. Squash, racketball, badminton and jai alai? Forget it.

 

Yet shots are hit or returned for each of these with uncanny frequency.

 

Because the throw can be anticipated, the reaction can begin before the shot.

 

So why doesn't the attacker check in mid-shot, let the defender over-commit and then pick them off? Sometimes they do.

 

There's a lot of psychology between attacker and defender.

 

Which comes down to the expression of this interaction in the Hero combat mechanics.

 

So if you redefine logical RL effects discounting RL logic, you unbalance the mechanic. If someone paid for an IPE, they get an IPE. If they didn't pay for it, then penalizing the defender is breaking the game mechanic.

 

IMHO.

[Markdoc]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Well you know what they say about limitations that don't limit. If someone tries to somehow buy a maneuver that always hits and has an OCV penalty I think I know what my response will be' date=' don't you?[/quote']

 

Sure, but what about when they start using "always hits" for their grabs and start telekinetically removing their opponents' foci from a kilometer away (thus ignoring both range and the grab penalty)? Or use it on their movethrough, thus negating the movethrough penalties at high velocity? Or use it with options like "hurry" or "hipshot", which have significant penalties associated with them. Basically, for any character that uses ranged attacks or high speed maneuvers, it needs to cost at least as much as "no range modifier" and preferrably significantly more than BOECV, which offer similar range abolishing effects, but which are significantly less effective.

 

I have to admit, I'd hate to see absolute effects added to the rules, because the game always, always throws up situations where absolutes are a problem.

 

cheers, Mark

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

*snip*

 

I don't need you to explain the psychology of the situation. The fact is it shouldn't be an instantaneous win for the person who dives for cover. You should have a CHANCE of "outwitting" them, or of just keeping enough calm to hold the shot until they are laying on the floor.

 

If in fact a mind game is occuring then the attacker shouldn't always lose.

 

It makes much much more sense to just give the person who dives a DCV bonus to represent the fact they are harder to hit while diving through the air.

 

I don't care if you anticipated the shot, are fast enough to actually dive out of the way of the bullets or whatever attack it may be, or just got lucky and dove at the right moment. The attacker should be able to track your movement (or at least try, ie the defender gets a DCV bonus) especially if he's firing a half dozen shots at you.

[Alibear]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

The attacker doesn't alwas lose; people fail that Dex roll. Anyway we're not talking about me and you, 8-11 dex-men, dodging bullets we're talking about Spiderman, 35 dex, dodging bullets, ffs!

[Markdoc]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I don't need you to explain the psychology of the situation. The fact is it shouldn't be an instantaneous win for the person who dives for cover. You should have a CHANCE of "outwitting" them, or of just keeping enough calm to hold the shot until they are laying on the floor.

 

If in fact a mind game is occuring then the attacker shouldn't always lose.

 

They don't always lose. They can feint and then shoot the lying-down, 1/2 DCV target in the next phase, after he's DFC'ed. The person DFC'ing can fail their DEX roll or simply fail to get out of the AoE.

 

Or - if it really irritates you - you can use my house rule, which is that dodge and DFC are the same thing. Any dodge gives you the possibility of up to a half move if you make your DEX roll at -1/hex, (which ends with you prone as you dive away) and gives you the +3 DCV (or +5 for martial dodge). If you end up behind cover, you get the cover bonus. You can't, however avoid a non AoE attack by simply moving one hex.

 

That means for regular aimed attacks, the attacker gets a chance to hit (versus your DCV + dodge + cover, if any) and for area effect attacks, you get hit, if you don't get out of the area.

 

For the player's point of view no discussion about whether to dodge or DFC is required - a dodge is a dodge is a dodge. The defender's only decision is whether to risk a DEX roll to try and make it behind cover (if it's available) or to get away from a potential explosion or dodge where he is. Either way, you can't automatically escape a non-AoE attack simply by moving one hex.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Generally, 'logically', if you don't notice a bullet until after it is in flight, it is too late top do anything about it. Of course, if you are CAPABLE of noticing a bulet in flight then you are probably pretty extrordinary and the general rules might not apply.

 

However, all of the maneouvres, like dodge, missile deflect (OK that one is a power) and DFC are, I assume, involving an element of anticipation.

 

The problem for me with DFC against individually targeted attacks makes it is too easy to avoid them: you just need to make a DEX roll by at least 1 point. For most characters that is very easy indeed. That's why I suggested that, for individually targeted attacks, rather than a simple DEX roll determining if you succeed, it could add +1 DCV per 1 you make the roll by: basically the attacker and defender are psyching each other. Often it won't be as effective as a dodge, so for individually targeted attacks a dodge is a better bet, but for attacks that you now are AoE (or you suspect will be) DFC is your only way out. An alternative is that you make an opposed DEX roll (your dex v attackers) and only the positive result is counted for individualy targeted attacks.

 

Against an 'always hit' power, unelss it also had indirect, I'd probably allow DFC to work IF it took you out of LOS or range.

[Chronosnight]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Goldenage told me that once the flash was in a movie theater, he was shot in the back of the head, when he felt the bullet touch the back of his skull he moved out of the way

 

Sorry I know that has nothing to do with anything other than reinstating how much the flash rocks!

 

Also I "really" like the +1DCV per point rolled, this is a great idea, if I could, I would rep.

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Sure, but what about when they start using "always hits" for their grabs

 

That would be challenging, but I suppose you could buy "always hits" on your strength. There's a reason that it would cost +1 and makes you do stun only. If you want to pay for a telekinetic grab that always hits and has a kilometer range (and allows you to see them somehow) you're going to pay for the privilege. And despite the name, it doesn't actually always hit: there has to be a way to avoid the attack built into the definition (so probably the name No Normal Evasion is better).

 

The arguments against always hits are philosophically identical to the arguments against NND attacks. The game just started with NND so people grandfather it in.

 

Dodging in the game (and real life) is making yourself a difficult target, not moving out of the way of the attack. The attempt to equate it with diving for cover is a false argument. Dive for cover is used to move out of an area, not prevent yourself from being hit by an attack. The guy could in theory target you with the grenade and then you couldn't dive out of it (if he hit, if he didn't then you could try to get away from the area), but it would be a lot harder to hit you than your hex.

 

Incidentally, I'd allow Sean Walter's variant to Dive for Cover against individual targets, because it fits better what's going on. Remember: rules don't worry about special effect and real life, that's for building powers. Rules worry about game mechanics and simple, accurate simulation.

[Comic]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

DFC is a pretty big liability to invoke, for most people in most situations.

 

It's not generally the smart combat choice in a combat -- it wastes an opportunity to attack, leaves the character doing the DFC more vulnerable at the end of it unless circumstances provide cover that their opposition cannot get around easily, has a substantial chance of failure and when it fails it significantly worsens one's situation, adding a dice to the knockback done and leaving the defender much less able to recover.

 

Sure, someone doing a DFC usually succeeds.

 

If the DFCer has Breakfall or a movement power with Position Shift, and they can use it, they can partially buy off the liability.

 

If the target has a substantially higher SPD than the attacker, then DFC's liability is bought off further.

 

There are ways available to mitigate how crummy a deal DFC is.

 

But DFC is still a crummy deal as a maneuver, and being able to force a character to need to DFC is a significant advantage in combat.

 

So I'm not going to be easily persuaded that just because a DFC can defeat the damage of an attack that the DFC is overpowered.

 

Compared to standing there, soaking up the possible damage, and attacking back effectively, DFC is a pretty poor cousin.

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I agree, Dive for Cover is pretty well balanced and not overpowered at all: in fact many characters are physically incapable of diving entirely out of many area effects (8D6 explosion? You're taking some of this unless you're the Incredible Gnat).

[Vondy]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

DFC is a pretty big liability to invoke, for most people in most situations.

 

It's not generally the smart combat choice in a combat -- it wastes an opportunity to attack, leaves the character doing the DFC more vulnerable at the end of it unless circumstances provide cover that their opposition cannot get around easily, has a substantial chance of failure and when it fails it significantly worsens one's situation, adding a dice to the knockback done and leaving the defender much less able to recover.

 

Sure, someone doing a DFC usually succeeds.

 

If the DFCer has Breakfall or a movement power with Position Shift, and they can use it, they can partially buy off the liability.

 

If the target has a substantially higher SPD than the attacker, then DFC's liability is bought off further.

 

There are ways available to mitigate how crummy a deal DFC is.

 

But DFC is still a crummy deal as a maneuver, and being able to force a character to need to DFC is a significant advantage in combat.

 

So I'm not going to be easily persuaded that just because a DFC can defeat the damage of an attack that the DFC is overpowered.

 

Compared to standing there, soaking up the possible damage, and attacking back effectively, DFC is a pretty poor cousin.

 

This may be a GM problem rather than a mechanics problem. I say this because inherent in diving for cover is the notion that there is some cover to dive for. Yes, technically, its a "get out of the area of effect" mechanic, but in truth, if GMs are being true to simulating how this plays out in most genres, there really should be cover to dive for (and thus you should end your miraculous dive for safety in a place where you aren't completely hosed).

[Vondy]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Generally, 'logically', if you don't notice a bullet until after it is in flight, it is too late top do anything about it. Of course, if you are CAPABLE of noticing a bulet in flight then you are probably pretty extrordinary and the general rules might not apply.

 

 

One might, however, notice the finger jerking on the trigger, or the beady glint in the dastardly foes eyes indicating he will pull the trigger in a split second...

[Vondy]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Generally, 'logically', if you don't notice a bullet until after it is in flight, it is too late top do anything about it. Of course, if you are CAPABLE of noticing a bulet in flight then you are probably pretty extrordinary and the general rules might not apply.

 

 

One might, however, notice the barrel twitch, the finger jerking, or the beady glint in the dastardly foes eyes indicating he will pull the trigger in a split second...

[Wayside]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Ok, here's my last argument in the way of sean's +1dcv per 1" or a flat dodge bonus.

 

Assuming all your arguments are correct, the manuever is based on the defender anticipating the attack, and the attacker has no way of mitigating this (yes, i realize it doesn't always fail, but it doesn't scale. A normal guy diving for cover 1" out of the way of a directed attack from mechanon will have the same chance to dive for cover 1" out of the way of a directed attack from his little sister.).

 

It is 100% illogical that someone firing enough shots to encompass the entire time it takes the person to dive out of the way and land will be completely incapable of following the target.

 

There's all this talk of how absolutes are bad, while hero system has one built in. You don't even have to make an attack roll, just a dex roll. And you have effectively desolidified yourself against the attack, worse yet, you can't even hit them with affects desolidified. Granted, it has a costly side-affect of making you prone.

 

This manuever should be handled one of the following ways for directed attacks in my opinion:

Opposed DEX checks

+1DCV per 1" of the dive

+3 DCV

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

...............

 

So I'm not going to be easily persuaded that just because a DFC can defeat the damage of an attack that the DFC is overpowered.

 

Compared to standing there, soaking up the possible damage, and attacking back effectively, DFC is a pretty poor cousin.

 

It is not so much that it can defeat the damage of the attack, it is that it can defeat any OCV you are facing. Monkey Boy with his 13 DEX can avoid The Ultimate Martial Artist with his 50 DEX 62% of the time. That just ain't right. Sure he'll suffer next phase, and that is the payoff cost, but it is still pretty useful. And if Monkey Boy has a higher speed than TUMA and breakfall, it may be that all he's done is give up one attack.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I have two words for TUMA, then:

 

"AoE Attack". You use this specifically for people who keep dodging/DFCing your strike. You let them DFC; you let them DFC again. Then, when they're used to DFCing 1" to get out of your fist's way, you hit them with a 2" AoE.

 

My question is, would AoE Selective be sufficient? They're still in the AoE, they'll be hit anyhow, you would NORMALLY hit them, and so you do, right? Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy. Laugh while you can.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

I have two words for TUMA, then:

 

"AoE Attack". You use this specifically for people who keep dodging/DFCing your strike. You let them DFC; you let them DFC again. Then, when they're used to DFCing 1" to get out of your fist's way, you hit them with a 2" AoE.

 

My question is, would AoE Selective be sufficient? They're still in the AoE, they'll be hit anyhow, you would NORMALLY hit them, and so you do, right? Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy. Laugh while you can.

 

Hmm. I think I'd rather get the mechanic right than build a metacharacter to overcome the problem.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Well, here's the thing. You're wanting to build a mechanic that'll allow UMA to punch Monkey Boy, but that'll also allow him to hit:

• flying bullets
  
• supersonic planes
  
• someone running at light-speed
  
• Micro-Man, the Smallest Man In The World
  

 

...and yet you're not wanting to build something that'll let him use superior tactics (i.e. suckering Monkey Boy) to do the job. This isn't meta-gaming or meta-building; this is building someone who knows how to draw his opponent into a combat pattern and then break it, thus getting through to his opponent. This is actually the one time that I'd use 'AoE Any Area', to enable the UMA to 'strike more rapidly'. 'AoE Any Area (+1), Selective (+1/4), One Target Only (-1/4)'. Because he's punching, punching, then punching -ahead- of where the guy's dodging to.

 

Metagaming is something on the player's part. IMNSHO, this isn't it; this is 'what does the best @$$kicker in the world do when the scairdy-cat keeps diving and rolling out of his way'. He knows what to do, and how to do it.

 

Unless, of course, you were looking for something else. IMO, 'always hits' is a game-breaker; there should always be a miss chance. Otherwise, why not just play ... heck, I dunno. There's always a miss chance...

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Well' date=' here's the thing. You're wanting to build a mechanic that'll allow UMA to punch Monkey Boy, but that'll also allow him to hit:[list']

[*]flying bullets

[*]supersonic planes

[*]someone running at light-speed

[*]Micro-Man, the Smallest Man In The World

...and yet you're not wanting to build something that'll let him use superior tactics (i.e. suckering Monkey Boy) to do the job. This isn't meta-gaming or meta-building; this is building someone who knows how to draw his opponent into a combat pattern and then break it, thus getting through to his opponent. This is actually the one time that I'd use 'AoE Any Area', to enable the UMA to 'strike more rapidly'. 'AoE Any Area (+1), Selective (+1/4), One Target Only (-1/4)'. Because he's punching, punching, then punching -ahead- of where the guy's dodging to.

 

Metagaming is something on the player's part. IMNSHO, this isn't it; this is 'what does the best @$$kicker in the world do when the scairdy-cat keeps diving and rolling out of his way'. He knows what to do, and how to do it.

 

Unless, of course, you were looking for something else. IMO, 'always hits' is a game-breaker; there should always be a miss chance. Otherwise, why not just play ... heck, I dunno. There's always a miss chance...

 

Blimey.

 

Well, er, no...

 

If TUMA wants to sucker Monkey Boy, I'd allow an acting roll to make MB THINK TUMA is attacking, abort to DFC and then REALLY attack when he sees where he lands. There's your superior tactics right there.

 

I'm not talking about that.

 

I'm talking about a mechanic that, at present, allows the most dextrous man in the world to MISS someone who can make a DEX roll by at least +1. Sure there is always a miss chance, but it should be 1 in 216, at those extremes.

 

TUMA not being able to land a punch before MB jumps out of the way over half the time? That's...just wrong.

[CTaylor]

Re: "Never Miss" powers

 

Sure, there has to be a way to miss: that's part of the build. Just like there's always got to be a defense to attacks, that's how NND is built.