Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

[MPT]

In Steve's 6th Ed Post on Characteristics he wondered if it was possible to make every point of a Characteristic matter for Skills. The following is an idea that I came up with which I have never playtested but is mathematically sound. I thought I would post it here rather than in the main thread as he asked that House Rules not be posted there. Comments are welcome.

 

The Idea

 

What I thought was that Characteristics that were not multiples of 5 would effectively provide a 20% possibility of skill success per point over 5. It works like this.

 

No Rounding of Skill Level

 

Characteristic of 0, 5, 10, 15, 20…: Use the existing rules i.e. roll 3d6 and combat with the skill value of 9+(CHA/5).

 

Skill was Rounded Down

 

Characteristic of 1, 6, 11, 16, 21…: If the character fails the roll by 1, roll a fourth d6. If a 1 is rolled then the character has succeeded. E.g. If the character has a skill of 13- (after all modifiers) and rolls a 14 then (and only then) he rolls the fourth dice and if it is a 1 then the character has succeeded (consider them to have rolled a 13).

 

Characteristic of 2, 7, 12, 17, 22…: As above but the character succeeds on a roll of a 1 or 2.

 

If a 4 is rolled and the fourth dice reduces the roll to a 3, the character is not considered to have rolled a critical (the 3 must be a natural roll).

 

Skill was Rounded Up

 

Characteristic of 4, 9, 14, 19, 24…: If the character makes the roll exactly, roll a fourth d6. If a 6 is rolled then the character has just failed. E.g. If the character has a skill of 16- (after all modifiers) and rolls a 16 then (and only then) roll the fourth dice and if it is a 6 then the character has failed (consider them to have rolled a 17).

 

Characteristic of 3, 8, 13, 18, 23…: As above but the character fails on a roll of 5 or 6.

 

If a 17 is rolled and the fourth dice increases the roll to a 18, the character is not considered to have rolled a fumbled (the 18 must be a natural roll).

 

When to Use this Rule

 

In most circumstances the existing 3d6 roll is enough. It is only when a skill roll is vital and the user has rolled 1 above or below the required value that this extra roll is required.

 

The Maths Bit

 

The above system would be more acurate using a D10 (with appropriate changes), but as this is a D6 system I have kept to this for the fourth dice.

 

Characteristic --- Skill (not rounded) --- Success using this system

10 --- 11.0 --- Normal for a skill of 11

11 --- 11.2 --- Normal for a skill of 11 +17%

12 --- 11.4 --- Normal for a skill of 11 +33%

13 --- 11.6 --- Normal for a skill of 11 +66%

14 --- 11.8 --- Normal for a skill of 11 +83%

15 --- 12.0 --- Normal for a skill of 12

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

I've posted a similar concept before, but I don't eliminate the rounding. That just means you have a 1 in 6 chance with a 14 stat, and so on.

 

I'd probably roll 4d6 for each attempt, with the 4th die a separate colour, and relevant only if the first three fail by 1. That cuts down on the number of rolls.

[Steve Long]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

Please keep in mind that nothing said here will be considered when it comes time to write 6E. If you want me to consider your suggestions when it comes time to write the new rulebook, please post 'em in the appropriate thread over on the 6E boards.

[braincraft]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

I really feel like characteristics should be unified and simplified. If it takes 9 points (6 points if you divorice it from SPD) to get any return on DEX, then just make DEX cost 9(6) points to increase by one, and make the effect 1:1. Make every other characteristic work the same way.

 

Furthermore, you could even do something with effect values. STR and PRE both have effect values (rolled as dice pool and added up) as their primary use. (Well, okay, for STR the primary use is to pump secondary characteristics...) Other characteristics are only used in this way if you have weird advantaged powers (CON-based Entangles, for example). 16 INT is different from 15 INT if it means you roll 3d6+1 instead of 3d6 for your Invention effect roll, say.

[Flames]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

This might lead to the use of custom d6s, like those ones that roll 0-5 instead of 1-6.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

A similar effect for making every point of a CHA "count" can be achieved (more simply, IMO) by saying, "CHA Roll breakpoints occur at values ending in 3 and 8. If you have a CHA that falls on a non-breakpoint value, then for each point between the breakpoint and your value, you get one +1 modifier to that CHA Roll (or Skill Rolls based on that CHA, etc.) that can be used once per adventure. So for example, at 13 INT your roll for INT-based tasks is 12-. At 14 INT, your roll is generally 12-, and you can roll at 13- once per adventure. At 15 INT, you can roll at 13- twice per adventure. At 16 INT, you get 13- three times, and at 17 INT, you get 13- four times. And at 18 INT, of course, you're at 13- all the time."

[archermoo]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

A similar effect for making every point of a CHA "count" can be achieved (more simply' date=' IMO) by saying, "CHA Roll breakpoints occur at values ending in 3 and 8. If you have a CHA that falls on a non-breakpoint value, then for each point between the breakpoint and your value, you get one +1 modifier to that CHA Roll (or Skill Rolls based on that CHA, etc.) that can be used once per adventure. So for example, at 13 INT your roll for INT-based tasks is 12-. At 14 INT, your roll is generally 12-, and you can roll at 13- once per adventure. At 15 INT, you can roll at 13- twice per adventure. At 16 INT, you get 13- three times, and at 17 INT, you get 13- four times. And at 18 INT, of course, you're at 13- all the time."[/quote']

 

I like Derek's method.

 

You should post it in the 6e Skills thread if you haven't alredy.

[MPT]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

Please keep in mind that nothing said here will be considered when it comes time to write 6E. If you want me to consider your suggestions when it comes time to write the new rulebook' date=' please post 'em in the appropriate thread over on the 6E boards.[/quote']

 

Whilst I came up with the idea, as it had not been playtested and seemed a bit fiddly I decided I would see what other people thought of it first to save you having to read it. You must spend all day just reading the 6th ed posts (although you still managed to find this one).

[Steve Long]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

Actually I don't step into the 6E forums too much -- if I did I'd get nothing else done. A full review of what's being said there will have to wait until I start writing 6E about a year from now. I expect it will take me a week.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

Actually I don't step into the 6E forums too much -- if I did I'd get nothing else done. A full review of what's being said there will have to wait until I start writing 6E about a year from now. I expect it will take me a week.

 

Maybe if you closed them all now...

[gojira]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

A similar effect for making every point of a CHA "count" can be achieved (more simply' date=' IMO) by saying, "CHA Roll breakpoints occur at values ending in 3 and 8. If you have a CHA that falls on a non-breakpoint value, then for each point between the breakpoint and your value, you get one +1 modifier to that CHA Roll (or Skill Rolls based on that CHA, etc.) that can be used once per adventure. So for example, at 13 INT your roll for INT-based tasks is 12-. At 14 INT, your roll is generally 12-, and you can roll at 13- once per adventure. At 15 INT, you can roll at 13- twice per adventure. At 16 INT, you get 13- three times, and at 17 INT, you get 13- four times. And at 18 INT, of course, you're at 13- all the time."[/quote']

 

I like this too. It's fairly simple. Unlike having to keep track of fractions all the time, it could be implemented with a chit system which would be a lot easier to manage.

 

In fact it could be integrated into a Hero Points system pretty easily, if Steve decides to make that standard in SixE. Grab your Hero Points, add in your Skill Points, and you're ready too go.

[Vondy]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

A similar effect for making every point of a CHA "count" can be achieved (more simply' date=' IMO) by saying, "CHA Roll breakpoints occur at values ending in 3 and 8. If you have a CHA that falls on a non-breakpoint value, then for each point between the breakpoint and your value, you get one +1 modifier to that CHA Roll (or Skill Rolls based on that CHA, etc.) that can be used once per adventure. So for example, at 13 INT your roll for INT-based tasks is 12-. At 14 INT, your roll is generally 12-, and you can roll at 13- once per adventure. At 15 INT, you can roll at 13- twice per adventure. At 16 INT, you get 13- three times, and at 17 INT, you get 13- four times. And at 18 INT, of course, you're at 13- all the time."[/quote']

 

It might need some tweaking, but its an interesting idea. My only concern would be keeping track of it. It seems like it adds run time bookkeeping, which is something I try to cut down on. One potential problem is rooted in playstyle: in games with lots of skills and characteristic checks this probably balances out, but I've seen games where you only get a few of any particuliar kind of roll in a given session (other than combat rolls). In those games some players will realize they can get the 13- consistently without paying for it. Now, generally I consider those sorts of issues a problem for the GM to deal with, but its still potentially there to deal with. I might give it a test (my games tend to be skill intensive).

[Vondy]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

In Steve's 6th Ed Post on Characteristics he wondered if it was possible to make every point of a Characteristic matter for Skills. The following is an idea that I came up with which I have never playtested but is mathematically sound...

 

"Damnit, Jim! I'm a gamemaster not an accountant!"

[JmOz]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

A similar effect for making every point of a CHA "count" can be achieved (more simply' date=' IMO) by saying, "CHA Roll breakpoints occur at values ending in 3 and 8. If you have a CHA that falls on a non-breakpoint value, then for each point between the breakpoint and your value, you get one +1 modifier to that CHA Roll (or Skill Rolls based on that CHA, etc.) that can be used once per adventure. So for example, at 13 INT your roll for INT-based tasks is 12-. At 14 INT, your roll is generally 12-, and you can roll at 13- once per adventure. At 15 INT, you can roll at 13- twice per adventure. At 16 INT, you get 13- three times, and at 17 INT, you get 13- four times. And at 18 INT, of course, you're at 13- all the time."[/quote']

 

I have to spread rep, but THAT IS GENIUS

[Markdoc]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

A very simple method that I use as a house rule is that in a skill vs skill contest, the highest CHA value wins ties. That way having a CHA just over a breakpoint is actually worthwhile - especially for things like DEX, where "DEX-off's" to see who goes first on held actions often occur. A true tie only occurs if the skill roll and the related CHA are identical.

 

With this simple change, every point actually does count.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

A very simple method that I use as a house rule is that in a skill vs skill contest, the highest CHA value wins ties. That way having a CHA just over a breakpoint is actually worthwhile - especially for things like DEX, where "DEX-off's" to see who goes first on held actions often occur. A true tie only occurs if the skill roll and the related CHA are identical.

 

With this simple change, every point actually does count.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Interesting... I like it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

Interesting... I like it.

 

And simple - as a GM, I like simple

 

cheers, Mark

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

One potential problem is rooted in playstyle: in games with lots of skills and characteristic checks this probably balances out' date=' but I've seen games where you only get a few of any particuliar kind of roll in a given session (other than combat rolls). In those games some players will realize they can get the 13- consistently without paying for it. Now, generally I consider those sorts of issues a problem for the GM to deal with, but its still potentially there to deal with.[/quote']That could certainly happen, but I don't see it as a big deal. Yes, if you have a 17 INT (say), it might be just as effective as an 18 INT in many game sessions. But I'm not sure that's a problem. A 17 INT and an 18 INT are extremely close, after all. If the difference between them only becomes meaningful once every few adventures, I think that's a sign that this rule is succeeding at its intended goal of making every CHA point count.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

I have to spread rep' date=' but THAT IS GENIUS[/quote']As much as I'd love to accept the credit, the idea isn't original to me. I don't recall where I came across it, but I read it somewhere over the last 20 years...

[gojira]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

A very simple method that I use as a house rule is that in a skill vs skill contest, the highest CHA value wins ties. That way having a CHA just over a breakpoint is actually worthwhile - especially for things like DEX, where "DEX-off's" to see who goes first on held actions often occur. A true tie only occurs if the skill roll and the related CHA are identical.

 

With this simple change, every point actually does count.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I like this too (in addition to Derek's suggestion). If Hero Points are not used, then this becomes an easy way to make every characteristic count.

 

I hope Steve adopts both, personally.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Making Every Characteristic Point Matter

 

If we were to use every point, it might be nice to do it like this:

 

1. Characteristics don;t round: if it is CHA/5, then the 'break point' is 5,10 etc.

 

2. For each point over the break point, you get a second roll, which allows you to succeed if you just failed (i.e. you failed by only 1 point). The second roll is calculated as follows:

 

Breakpoint+1 = 7- roll

Breakpoint+2 = 9- roll

Breakpoint+3 = 11- roll

Breakpoint+4 = 13- roll

 

The secondary rolls approximate to 20%, 40%, 60% and 80%.

 

It is the same thing as other ideas really but I think it is easier to use a secondary 3d6 roll than a different mechanism. I could be wrong on that