What do you need to have in order to play the game?

[Doc Shadow]

A couple of days ago in a Pulp Hero thread Steve said that although Pulp Hero itself had sold fairly well, the other books in the Pulp Hero line had not. As such there would be no further support for the line beyond the occasional pdf, apparently he has mentioned this before but I guess I’d missed it.

This got me wondering why the genre book was selling but the source books weren’t, which in turn led me to wonder what a role-playing game really needs to provide to be playable right from the get go, and if perhaps the reason that the source books aren’t selling is because something’s missing from the equation.

The first thing I had to face before I could even begin to tackle this question was that things have changed from the days when Hero was first published two plus decades ago. The fan-base has both shrunk and aged in those years. In my mind the key thing is the age. As folks get older they tend to have more commitments and responsibilities, and less free time. The things that we would have done ourselves 20 years ago we now prefer to be already done and available for purchase. Twenty-five years ago all we needed was the rules and the genre, which were combined as one book at the time. Everything else we could do ourselves, supplements were nice but not essential. They were, in effect, icing on the cake.

Not so today.

Hero’s ageing customer base often just doesn’t have the time, and their younger customers – who grew up with the instant gratification of video games – often don’t want to. Mind you these are not absolutes, but in general I believe that these observations are pretty accurate.

The upshot of it is that the supplements should sell pretty well, nearly as well as the genre book. So why didn’t that happen in the case of Pulp Hero?

One factor is probably economic. People simply have less disposable cash than they used to. “I’ve got a mortgage to pay!”, “I’m trying to put my kids through college!”, “I drive an SUV and gas is heading for four bucks a gallon!”, “Have you seen the price of hamburger lately?!”

But I think the main factor is that they weren’t given what they needed to play the game. Boiled down to its essentials you need three things: the rules (this includes the genre as well as the general rules), the setting for the game to take place in, and people (primarily but not limited to adversaries) to populate that setting.

Now let’s take a look at the Pulp Hero line:

Pulp Hero – the genre rulebook, combined with 5E, 5eR, or Sidekick you’re good to go with the rules

Masterminds and Madmen – the adversaries book, lots of bad guys to populate the setting, so you’re ready on that front too.

Thrilling Places – a locations book, a dozen strange locales scattered across the globe for your heroes to visit. Useful, but it’s not on the essential list.

Something’s missing. There’s no setting book. The setting book should have been the second PH book out the gate, right after the genre book. Instead it was delayed and now it’s not coming out at all.

Now is this really a problem? To answer that let’s take a look at the other Hero lines and what they did.

Champions brought out a setting book, Champions Universe, right away. Then followed it up the next month with Conquerors, Killers and Crooks; the villain book. As time went on more detailed setting books were released in Millennium City and Vibora Bay.

Fantasy Hero brought out The Turakian Age, The Valdorian Age and Tuala Morn.

Star Hero had Terran Empire and Alien Wars.

All three have sold well enough that they continue to be supported, although the lion’s share of the support goes to Champions as Hero’s strongest seller.

Then we come to Dark Champions, which although not as popular as its original incarnation was, still has its followers. This game has what I consider to be the finest setting book I’ve ever owned in the magnificent Hudson City: the Urban Abyss. As far as I know, this line is still being supported, although not as vigorously as the others. As for why it hasn’t sold as well as expected, I’d guess that’s more the result of the shift in focus from street level supers to heroic level agents, cops, and vigilantes; which doesn’t seem to be quite what a lot of players wanted.

Next is Ninja Hero, while technically a genre book, it has probably been used more as a martial arts sourcebook by players of the other lines. Also to my knowledge it was intended to be a stand-alone book, not the start of a new line. It has no setting nor villain books.

Finally we come to Post Apocalyptic Hero. I don’t own this yet but it looks like: No setting. No people. Sales on the weak side, and with the upcoming 6E re-start, probably doomed to be another stand-alone.

So there you have it. Hero’s successes have all followed the pattern of rules/setting/people, and their failures seem to come when they deviate from it. Now I’m not saying that deviating from the formula is the only cause for a line’s weak sales, but it does seem to be a common element they all share.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

I think maybe you're looking at it backwards. I think the reason the supplements after the genre books (except the Champions line, which as always is the exception) don't sell well is because a high percentage of HERO players prefer to create their own settings, characters, and adventures, and feel like they don't need any books beyond the genre books. Heck, one of the big challenges for Hero Games (in all incarnations) has always been that many gamers feel like they don't need any books beyond the main rules, and that's part of what attracts them to the HERO System. And while that's great for them, it's not so great for the company's sales.

[Doc Shadow]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

I don't think so, Derek. It might have been that way with earlier incarnations, hell I'll even go so far as to say it was that way then. But that was when most of us were in our teens and twenties and had the time that, as fortysomethings, we no longer have.

 

Sure, you can take your old campaign from way back when, dust it off a bit, update the mechanics to 5eR and use that. Assuming you kept complete enough notes. But you'll basically be running the same campaign all over again. Love may be lovelier the second time around but the second time for the same role-playing campaign seems a trifle boring to me. After all, you already know where all the bodies are buried so to speak. You could make major changes to the setting but do you have the time? For many the answer is no.

 

Also from what I'm hearing talking to other gamers this is true across the hobby, not just for Hero. The games that flourish are the ones that give you that formula of rules/setting/people; and the ones that don't are the ones that give you just the rules and maybe an adventure of three.

 

More later, supper's waiting.

[Spence]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

I don't think so' date=' Derek. It might have been that way with earlier incarnations, hell I'll even go so far as to say it [i']was[/i] that way then. But that was when most of us were in our teens and twenties and had the time that, as fortysomethings, we no longer have.

 

Sure, you can take your old campaign from way back when, dust it off a bit, update the mechanics to 5eR and use that. Assuming you kept complete enough notes. But you'll basically be running the same campaign all over again. Love may be lovelier the second time around but the second time for the same role-playing campaign seems a trifle boring to me. After all, you already know where all the bodies are buried so to speak. You could make major changes to the setting but do you have the time? For many the answer is no.

 

Also from what I'm hearing talking to other gamers this is true across the hobby, not just for Hero. The games that flourish are the ones that give you that formula of rules/setting/people; and the ones that don't are the ones that give you just the rules and maybe an adventure of three.

 

More later, supper's waiting.

 

Just my 2 cents. Some of this has been extensively discussed on many threads.

 

The long and the short of it is this.

 

Pre-DOJ setting books and pre-made adventures were big sellers, across the industry not just Hero related. Then the number of people buying them dropped off and they stopped bringing in a high enough income level to justify production costs. DOJ tried several and they just didn’t perform to expectations so they stopped. Like you I think this trend is reversing, however Hero is a small press and to expend the resources they must be sure of a reasonable return.

 

Currently they have said several lines are closed except for the occasional PDF. But DOJ has proved they are more than willing to change their minds if the situation changes. The time just hasn't come yet.

[Susano]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

I'll say this -- I've been involved in 4 campaigns and have bantered about 2-4 more with my local gaming group. None of them were in a pre-published world.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

I don't think so' date=' Derek. It might have been that way with earlier incarnations, hell I'll even go so far as to say it [i']was[/i] that way then. But that was when most of us were in our teens and twenties and had the time that, as fortysomethings, we no longer have.

This is a completely rational and realistic position, and I have no doubt it's true in your case. I just don't think it's actually true in general.

 

I mean, it should be true. There's every reason to think that gamers spending more time and energy on work and family as they age would gravitate more to pre-made settings. Logically, it makes perfect sense. But however elegant the theory is, it doesn't seem to fit the established facts.

[Doc Shadow]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

I'll say this -- I've been involved in 4 campaigns and have bantered about 2-4 more with my local gaming group. None of them were in a pre-published world.

 

 

In all the time you've been gaming and all the games, and game systems, you've played?

 

If so, then consider yourself quite remarkable.

 

Most GMs I've known have always used pre-published material, both settings and characters. They tweak things to suit their individual styles and campaign ideas, and add their own material to flesh things out some more; but most of them are more than willing to use the pre-published material as a starting point at least.

[Doc Shadow]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

This is a completely rational and realistic position, and I have no doubt it's true in your case. I just don't think it's actually true in general.

 

I mean, it should be true. There's every reason to think that gamers spending more time and energy on work and family as they age would gravitate more to pre-made settings. Logically, it makes perfect sense. But however elegant the theory is, it doesn't seem to fit the established facts.

 

 

Derek, my friend, if you have a better theory that fits the facts of the situation, I'd love to hear it.

[Spence]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

In all the time you've been gaming and all the games, and game systems, you've played?

 

If so, then consider yourself quite remarkable.

 

Most GMs I've known have always used pre-published material, both settings and characters. They tweak things to suit their individual styles and campaign ideas, and add their own material to flesh things out some more; but most of them are more than willing to use the pre-published material as a starting point at least.

 

 

More like someone with the luxury of a steady and well established gaming group. Which is something I am envious of

 

For myself, when I was static I used to run my own world. When I started traveling a lot and no longer had anything resembling a regular gaming group I shifted to company settings tweaked to my taste. Part due to time and part due to not wanting to waste an adventure that I invested blood and sweat into on a munchkin. Much easier to use a pre-made one. If it gets trashed it’s no sweat.

 

Now that I have found what I believe to be actual roleplayers (woot! ) , I am starting to really gear up to make things happen. But for many people, gaming is still something they can only dabble in.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Derek' date=' my friend, if you have a better theory that fits the facts of the situation, I'd love to hear it. [/quote']GMs and players buy the core rules because they're necessary to play.

 

GMs (and many players) buy the genre books for the genres they like, because they're very helpful in creating (homegrown) settings/adventures to use with the HERO System in that genre.

 

Further support books sell less well because most groups are not using published settings (so the books for those settings, including characters written into those settings, are less useful to them).

 

This is my theory.

 

I think if we did polls in the various genre sub-forums, asking people who are currently playing in active campaigns whether those campaigns are taking place in published settings or homegrown settings, we would find that the majority are taking place in homegrown settings. And whatever percentage are taking place in settings published by Hero Games according to these polls, the actual percentage is probably lower than that (since people frequenting the message boards less are probably less likely to be buying lots of Hero books and using their settings).

 

EDIT: Also, it's generally true across the whole RPG industry that books closer to the "core" of a given RPG's product line sell better, and books farther away from the "core" sell worse. This isn't unique to Hero.

[Doc Shadow]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Spence, it occurs to me that about the same time the buying of modules dropped off, was when the fanbase started shrinking. Do you think that might have had something to do with it?

 

On the other hand it could have been simple oversaturation of the market. Still, I think the paradigm of rules/setting/people is the correct one for a new game. For a game that already comes with an established world that the players are familiar with, somewhat less so.

[Spence]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Spence, it occurs to me that about the same time the buying of modules dropped off, was when the fanbase started shrinking. Do you think that might have had something to do with it?

 

 

I couldn't really say. I was in the Navy at the time and I remember pre-mades being super popular when I left and virtually extinct when I returned a couple of years later. The actual year is even a blur.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

This is a completely rational and realistic position, and I have no doubt it's true in your case. I just don't think it's actually true in general.

 

I mean, it should be true. There's every reason to think that gamers spending more time and energy on work and family as they age would gravitate more to pre-made settings. Logically, it makes perfect sense. But however elegant the theory is, it doesn't seem to fit the established facts.

 

Oh, I dunno about that. The plural of anecdote is not data.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Spence' date=' it occurs to me that about the same time the buying of modules dropped off, was when the fanbase started shrinking. Do you think that might have had something to do with it?[/quote']I think the modules started drying up because the player base started shrinking (since, after all, modules will generally sell only to a subset of players -- i.e., GMs), not the other way around.

[Doc Shadow]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Possibly, Derek, but that doesn't explain why the sourcebooks for Champions and FH and SH are selling (at least enough to be worth continuing to publish them), and the sourcebooks for Pulp Hero aren't.

 

Now admittedly Champions is the big gun. This is the game that built Hero and keeps it running. All the other lines combined, probably still don't equal its sales numbers. But the rest are a lot closer to PH and there have been times that I've seen more visitors in the Pulp forum than the DC or SH forums. Although not very often

[Doc Shadow]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

I think the modules started drying up because the player base started shrinking (since' date=' after all, modules will generally sell only to a subset of players -- i.e., GMs), not the other way around. [/quote']

 

 

Where adventure modules are concerned, I agree.

[archermoo]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

In all the time you've been gaming and all the games, and game systems, you've played?

 

If so, then consider yourself quite remarkable.

 

Most GMs I've known have always used pre-published material, both settings and characters. They tweak things to suit their individual styles and campaign ideas, and add their own material to flesh things out some more; but most of them are more than willing to use the pre-published material as a starting point at least.

 

In more than 30 years of gaming I've never run a published setting. The closest I've ever come to playing in one was someone who ran the setting for Harn using GURPS. That and running D&D modules, but just as dungeons plugged into a totally different setting.

[Doc Shadow]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

In more than 30 years of gaming I've never run a published setting. The closest I've ever come to playing in one was someone who ran the setting for Harn using GURPS. That and running D&D modules' date=' but just as dungeons plugged into a totally different setting.[/quote']

 

 

I guess you're pretty remarkable.

 

Take a bow, archermoo.

[archermoo]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

I guess you're pretty remarkable.

 

Take a bow, archermoo.

 

Eh, just different experiences. Most of the people I've ever gamed with could say the same thing.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Possibly' date=' Derek, but that doesn't explain why the sourcebooks for Champions and FH and SH are selling (at least enough to be worth continuing to publish them), and the sourcebooks for Pulp Hero aren't.[/quote']Because more people play Champions and FH.

 

For example, let's say Hero Games needs to sell 2000 copies of a book to make it profitable (I know nothing about actual sales numbers, so this is a complete guess).

 

If 40,000 people play Champions, then only one Champions player in 20 needs to buy a book to make it profitable. If 10,000 people play FH, then one FH player in 5 needs to buy a book. But if 4000 people play PH, then fully half of them have to buy the book.

 

It seems clear from past trends that, for the HERO System, some genres will support a busy supplement schedule (Champions), some will support a cautious supplement schedule (Fantasy HERO), and some won't support much beyond the genre book itself (all the other genres).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Eh' date=' just different experiences. Most of the people I've ever gamed with could say the same thing.[/quote']Yeah, same here. I know plenty of folks who've swiped elements from published settings here and there, but relatively few who've run campaigns specifically in a published setting.

 

I personally own a bunch of them*, but I've never run a campaign in one (beyond one-shots at cons or such). I've just used them for inspiration, or for swiping scattered ideas from.

 

 

 

* Just off the top of my head: Champions Universe, the Turakian Age, the Valdorian Age, San Angelo, Freedom City, Gestalt, the Algernon Files, the DC Universe, the Marvel Universe, Forgotten Realms (many supplements), Greyhawk, Harnworld, Shadow World (many supplements), Midkemia, and Infinite Worlds. I'm sure I'm forgetting some...

[rjcurrie]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Eh' date=' just different experiences. Most of the people I've ever gamed with could say the same thing.[/quote']

 

Your experiences certainly echo my own -- although I may have played in one or two more published universes than you, although those were heavily modified.

[rjcurrie]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Yeah, same here. I know plenty of folks who've swiped elements from published settings here and there, but relatively few who've run campaigns specifically in a published setting.

 

I personally own a bunch of them*, but I've never run a campaign in one (beyond one-shots at cons or such). I've just used them for inspiration, or for swiping scattered ideas from.

 

 

 

* Just off the top of my head: Champions Universe, the Turakian Age, the Valdorian Age, San Angelo, Freedom City, Gestalt, the Algernon Files, the DC Universe, the Marvel Universe, Forgotten Realms (many supplements), Greyhawk, Harnworld, Shadow World (many supplements), Midkemia, and Infinite Worlds. I'm sure I'm forgetting some...

 

Once again, same here. Not quite the same list of owned settings but a large overlap.

[Doc Shadow]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Half a mo, while I check something..........

 

Yes. Refering to this post:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1546556&postcount=14

 

It sounds to me like PH sells on par with the other genre books. It's the supplements which are selling well below the projections, which I expect were based on Pulp Hero's sales numbers vis-a-vis the other lines and their Genre book-to-supplement ratios.

 

If I'm reading this correctly, it seems as though the sales numbers for the PH supplements are drastically lower than expected. Lower than they should be, even factoring in the sales volume of Pulp Hero itself.

[rjcurrie]

Re: What do you need to have in order to play the game?

 

Finally we come to Post Apocalyptic Hero. I don’t own this yet but it looks like: No setting. No people. Sales on the weak side, and with the upcoming 6E re-start, probably doomed to be another stand-alone.

 

Just so you know, Post Apocalyptic Hero was always planned as a stand-alone. That's why it includes several small settings in the book. That is the same plan for Urban Fantasy Hero.