How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

[matrix3]

If you say there is a limit of X active points, is that for all defenses, or just for each type of defense? And, how do you define "type of defense"?

[Kenn]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

I use the ability for a character to resist becoming stunned as the benchmark. Essentially I require that all characters, even the "invulnerable" ones, to be stunned by an attack that does a certain amount of stun. I think the limit is currently around 90 stun. This takes into acount PD or ED, CONstitution, and Damage Reduction.

 

Characters with high damage reduction are effectively rquired to have lower constitutions.

 

If anyone were to go too far past the midpoint, I'd probably have to concoct a more precise rule but I haven't needed it.

[Haerandir]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

I usually consider a similar metric: How many max-DC attacks will it take to put the character down, on average?

 

I don't have a hard-and-fast rule, I just eyeball it, or run the numbers. Generally, I expect characters to be able to take a few hits from a 15d6 EB without going down, say 3-6. Possibly as many as 8-10 if they have a low DCV and/or SPD. This means that there's a chance that they'll lose consciousness in a given fight, giving them an incentive to fight tactically, but they'll probably survive a lucky hit that does near-max damage. If I determine that the character can take 20 or more such hits... Well, that would be a red flag.

 

OTOH, if I see that a character can only take two or three such hits before taking a nap, I'll suggest that the player either increase their DEF, have a really high DCV, or purchase other defensive powers, like Damage Reduction, Missile Deflection or Desolid.

 

I find that setting definitive caps often leads to people engineering their characters to hit those caps. I tend to get pretty good results from asking questions like, "Are you prepared to be knocked unconscious at least once a fight?" or "Are you aware that I'm probably going to make you the primary target for mentalists, snipers and other cheeseball opponents? Are you ready to be picked on like that?"

[Certified]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

As a general rule of thumb I don't like to go with a hard limit. As far as guidelines go I think Max Attack verses Max Defense should be roughly 2 or 3 hits before someone is KOed. This is also saying that with good OCV verses good DCV they'll be hitting about half the time.

 

Here are the character guidelines for Metahumans Rising our current campaign:

Standard Attack: 15d6

 

Killing Attack: 5d6

 

Max PD/ED 35

 

 

With the values set above should a character with a maximum PD/ED be struck with a Maximum attack on "standard effect" they will suffer 10 points of Stun and 0 Body. An amount of Stun equal to the character's Recovery (REC) stat is automatically regained at the end of each Turn. In addition character may use actions through out the Turn to gain extra Recovery. A character with only base attributes (no increases at all) Has 20 Stun and a Recovery of 4.

 

Max Force Wall 20 (Force wall blocks only Body, if no body gets through all damage is mitigated.)

 

Max Value for Limitations -1 (Depending on the Power explanation and given good cause this may be increased on a one off basis.)

 

Ave Dexterity 12-20 (Above 20 should be defined as part of the character not obligatorily for all characters.)

 

Ave Speed: 4-5 (6 and above should be defined as part of the character not obligatorily for all characters.)

Note: Speed Comparisons, 2 Average Human, 3 Elite Thug/Most Military or Law Enforcement (BMA, CIA, FBI, Police), 4-5 Elite Agent/Elite Military, 5-6 World Class Martial Artist, 7+ Superhuman

 

OCV/DCV: 5-8 (Raw OCV/DCV above 8 and above should be defined as part of the character not obligatorily for all characters.)

 

The Dex and Speed was a bit tricky for some characters but they are guidelines so the martial artists went a bet above those levels.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

We don't use any hard and fast rules in our campaign, but we'd look askance at any character at any character who couldn't ever be Stunned or didn't take any Stun at all from an above campaign-average attack.

 

It's not been a problem; we've actually been pushing the team brick's player to buy his character's PD and ED up a bit higher. Our rationale is that the planet's premier brick shouldn't usually take damage from any attack which is below the campaign average of 12-13 DCs. As it stands the PC will take a few points of STUN from an average 10d6 attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

I'm a "whole character" kind of guy. I'd be equally OK with a character who has some defense against everything or one who's better defended against some types of attacks but weaker to others. The character with the highest OD and ED likely doesn't have a lot of exotic defenses.

 

Unless, of course, he's very well defended overall but rather lacking in offense, by comparison to the other characters.

 

It's all about the tradeoffs. If you set a maximum (eg. 30 PD/30ED) my experience is that it quickly becomes the minimum and all characters have 30 PD, 30 ED and a 14d6 attack because those are the maximums.

 

ADDENDUM: I'd also expect a character at campagn max for defenses to be pretty low on campaign average DCV. There are two reasons for this. First, of course, balance. Harder to hurt combines well with easier to hit. Second, if I spend all those points on defenses to be able to shrug off attacks that would pulp a lesser character, then I want to use them and impressively shrug offf those attacks that would pulp a lesser character, not dodge and weave out of their way like a scared rabbit!

[matrix3]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

Thanks for all the responses. I'm asking because I have a player who likes bricks, whatever the genre, and part of his view on his brick characters is that they should be able to not just endure, but brush off, any attack by anyone short of the campaign Big-Bad. I'm gathering ideas to have some solid campaign limits all set out.

[Haerandir]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

Well, that's one of those things that *sounds* reasonable... But just doesn't work in an RPG the way it does in comic books. You, as GM, need to be able to generate meaningful conflict for all of your players. If the only attacks that can represent a threat to your brick are those of the Big Bad, then the Big Bad has to show up pretty frequently. And if something happens to the brick, the rest of the team is suddenly facing opposition geared towards his defenses. At that point they're probably SOL.

 

Otherwise the brick simply strolls through the motions of clobbering the Villain of the Week and everyone else sits on the sidelines and watches. Maybe, if you plan ahead, they can 'help out' by rescuing bystanders and putting out fires and stuff. In a comic book, Green Arrow doesn't mind sitting out a fight between Superman and Darkseid, because he doesn't have a player who's sitting behind him hoping to get some spotlight time. And if Darkseid takes out Superman, then gives a little speech about how GA isn't worth the effort to squish, he's probably just happy to be alive. In a game with multiple players, each of whom has their own agenda when they sit down at the table, you need to be able to address each of their needs for a satisfying story/game/evening.

 

You can 'balance' defenses that provide virtual immunity, of course. Some GMs might allow him to have 75/75 hardened resistant DEF, or whatever. But only with the proviso that he be slow, inaccurate and lack offensive punch. Which quickly translates into 'a character who stands around not doing much'. Nobody wants that. Alternatively, as I implied above, you can let him be super-tough and then go after him with NNDs and mental powers and the like. Again, this results in a character (and a player) who routinely feels helpless and put-upon. This is not a recipe for a successful game.

 

Tell your player that if he wants to be 'a tough brick', he can do it without being 'immune to 90% of possible opponents'. Possible alternate routes to 'brickiness' include Damage Reduction ("Ha! That didn't hurt... much!"), Missile Deflection with Invisible Power Effects ("The bullets are just bouncing off of him!"), bonus defenses with Limitations that prevent them from being used all the time (I can see a build where the character has extra Armor with Concentration: 0 DCV to represent an ability to just brace himself and take the hits. Useful for tanking a tough opponent while the rest of the team pursues other goals.)

 

I've generally found that having slightly-above-average defenses, and some clever 'brick tricks' often leads to a more enjoyable character than one who can simply shrug off anything short of Dr. Destroyer. A character who simply never gets hurt is boring. A character who, through perseverance and tactics, eventually overcomes every obstacle in his path is much more fun.

 

Edit: In answer to your original question, I'd say that any cap you set should apply to each defense separately, rather than a flat 'no more than X active points in defenses'. Set your caps for PD/ED at a little below the average result for a campaign max attack (if you set your Damage Class cap at 12d6, then set your PD/ED cap somewhere in the 30-35 range). One rule of thumb is just to multiply the DC's in a campaign max attack by 2.5 or 3 and set that as your PD/ED cap. That way, most PCs will take noticeable damage from a hit, but you can still have a brick who isn't fazed by a few love-taps from his opponents. Don't worry too much about setting caps for other defenses, as they tend to balance themselves through a combination of point cost and opportunity costs. If they really insist on buying 25 points of Flash Defense, that's their problem. If they layer up Damage Reduction and other defensive powers on top of campaign-max defenses, they'll start running out of points pretty fast. And powers like Missile Deflection or Desolidification have other costs, such as the need to spend Phases using them, or pay 'Affects Real World' costs. Just, you know, make sure that a given character CAN be hurt by standard opponents. In the long run, everyone will be happier for it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

Well, that's one of those things that *sounds* reasonable... But just doesn't work in an RPG the way it does in comic books. You, as GM, need to be able to generate meaningful conflict for all of your players. If the only attacks that can represent a threat to your brick are those of the Big Bad, then the Big Bad has to show up pretty frequently. And if something happens to the brick, the rest of the team is suddenly facing opposition geared towards his defenses. At that point they're probably SOL.

 

Otherwise the brick simply strolls through the motions of clobbering the Villain of the Week and everyone else sits on the sidelines and watches. Maybe, if you plan ahead, they can 'help out' by rescuing bystanders and putting out fires and stuff. In a comic book, Green Arrow doesn't mind sitting out a fight between Superman and Darkseid, because he doesn't have a player who's sitting behind him hoping to get some spotlight time. And if Darkseid takes out Superman, then gives a little speech about how GA isn't worth the effort to squish, he's probably just happy to be alive. In a game with multiple players, each of whom has their own agenda when they sit down at the table, you need to be able to address each of their needs for a satisfying story/game/evening.

 

Comparing media we see a lot of variance. In the JLA cartoon, Superman stands up to tough attacks, but he is often staggered and not too infrequently KO'd. He hardly shrugs off everything thrown at him. Batman, meanwhile, generally avoids being hit, but he often weathers at least one big hit without being removed from the fight, much less killed.

 

Offensively, Superman has that impressive SuperStrength, but Bats accomplishes an awful lot with a handful of batarangs.

 

I'd suggest the animated JLA as a pretty balanced group of Champions characters, overall.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

Comparing media we see a lot of variance.

 

It varies a lot from team to team too.

 

There's also a lot less variance between the Fantastic Four or the Original X-Men in terms of overall defenses.

 

By contrast, the Avengers and the JLA are all over the map.

[matrix3]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

Well, that's one of those things that *sounds* reasonable... But just doesn't work in an RPG the way it does in comic books. You, as GM, need to be able to generate meaningful conflict for all of your players. If the only attacks that can represent a threat to your brick are those of the Big Bad, then the Big Bad has to show up pretty frequently. And if something happens to the brick, the rest of the team is suddenly facing opposition geared towards his defenses. At that point they're probably SOL.

 

 

It usually works out ok, since the other players know of his penchant for bricks and are good with writing up a variety of characters to compensate, so they can usually handle the high DCV martial artists or the mentalists that I throw at the group, and just use the brick as a walking shield for the physical attacks. There was at least one case, though, where a relatively low OCV, high damage bruiser meant to tangle with the brick got a lucky hit in on one of the other PCs and KO'd him in one punch.

[Doc Samson]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

For Defenses, we roughly use a half-active point rule. In A 60 AP campaign (allowing a 60 AP attack, such as 12d6 Strength or a 12d6 EB) our defense caps are 30 (including PD, ED, Mental, Power, and Flash Defense).

 

It's not perfect but it works pretty well as a starting point. A 12d6 attack does an average of 42 pts. of damage. A 30 defense would allow 12 damage through. If the Targets STUN is also capped at 60 AP, he will take about 5 shots before he is knocked out.

 

Like Hugh said above, other factors take it from there. We would frown on a character having capped Defenses and STUN, and also having capped DCV. As I said, it's not perfect (such as how a high Power Defense might be too high against a Drain but too low against a Suppress) but it gives us a place to start balancing.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

As far as regular attacks go, typically a good defense range a minimum of 1.5 times the campaign's max DC, with a maximum of 2.5 times the campaign's max DC.

 

So, if 12d6 is where you start for attack caps, somewhere between 18 (for martial artisty types) and 30 (for the bricks) serves me pretty well.

[jelloflechette]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

If you say there is a limit of X active points' date=' is that for all defenses, or just for each type of defense? And, how do you define "type of defense"?[/quote']

 

I've asked that same question a lot. Personally I've always believed that setting quantitative limits is more complicated and requires more GM thought than just saying max DEF = 30.

 

For example, if a character has 30rPD and 30rED already, what happens if someone tries to use Aid on Armor, say to stop a particularly strong attack? If 30 DEF really is the max, then Aid on Armor is useless, and this reduces the diversity of character capabilities. If the Aid on Armor is allowed to boost Armor, then 30 DEF really isn't the max.

 

And what about Forcewalls? If someone already has DEF 30, and someone else puts up a forcewall, what happens? If the forcewall is allowed to contribute defensively, then there really is more than DEF 30 against that particular attack, so again the "max" is technically broken. But it really doesn't make sense to say the forcewall can't contribute: in that case, it would mean that regardless of what terrain is between two characters, the max possible DEF is 30; that's just ridiculous.

 

Like other folks have said, it really takes active GM input--rather than just a plain numeric fiat--to get a balanced yet diverse group of characters. Personally I don't think absolute limits make any sense whatsoever (as indicated in the examples above) Which leaves the assumption that limits are during initial chargen only, and can be exceeded during runtime. In this case, the GM should probably pay attention to things like Armor + Forcefield + Aid to defenses, since that would be unbalancing.

 

One thing I've always found interesting is the concept of "bidding" for how good a character is in a particular field, like in the Amber RPG. For example, you could create Active Point guidelines for several levels ("ok" = x APs max, "good" = y APs max, "excels" = z APs max, etc), and have various categories of powers (strength, quickness, defenses, ranged attacks, H-H, weird stuff, etc). Then perhaps each character can only excel in one category, only two characters can be good in some other category, while all characters can be ok in anything. The players bid to see who gets what. This helps prevent the "cookie cutter" effect that point limits tend to cause.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

I've asked that same question a lot. Personally I've always believed that setting quantitative limits is more complicated and requires more GM thought than just saying max DEF = 30.

 

For example, if a character has 30rPD and 30rED already, what happens if someone tries to use Aid on Armor, say to stop a particularly strong attack? If 30 DEF really is the max, then Aid on Armor is useless, and this reduces the diversity of character capabilities. If the Aid on Armor is allowed to boost Armor, then 30 DEF really isn't the max.

 

And what about Forcewalls? If someone already has DEF 30, and someone else puts up a forcewall, what happens? If the forcewall is allowed to contribute defensively, then there really is more than DEF 30 against that particular attack, so again the "max" is technically broken. But it really doesn't make sense to say the forcewall can't contribute: in that case, it would mean that regardless of what terrain is between two characters, the max possible DEF is 30; that's just ridiculous.

 

Like other folks have said, it really takes active GM input--rather than just a plain numeric fiat--to get a balanced yet diverse group of characters. Personally I don't think absolute limits make any sense whatsoever (as indicated in the examples above) Which leaves the assumption that limits are during initial chargen only, and can be exceeded during runtime. In this case, the GM should probably pay attention to things like Armor + Forcefield + Aid to defenses, since that would be unbalancing.

I agree with this 100%.

 

The other big problem I've seen with hard caps is it seems to be taken by many players as goals and tends to make characters excessively similar. We've had much better results without caps. Instead we use GM input and discussion during character creation.

 

One thing I've always found interesting is the concept of "bidding" for how good a character is in a particular field, like in the Amber RPG. For example, you could create Active Point guidelines for several levels ("ok" = x APs max, "good" = y APs max, "excels" = z APs max, etc), and have various categories of powers (strength, quickness, defenses, ranged attacks, H-H, weird stuff, etc). Then perhaps each character can only excel in one category, only two characters can be good in some other category, while all characters can be ok in anything. The players bid to see who gets what. This helps prevent the "cookie cutter" effect that point limits tend to cause.

While this might work with some groups I'd be worried in some that it would lead to a feeling of competition between players. We prefer to use schtick protection between characters; which seems to work best if the players discuss their roles prior to the campaign start.

[Doc Samson]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

Adjustment Powers add a whole new dimension to game balance. A GM needs to take a look at who is taking what when it comes to Aid (including Succor), Transfer, and Absorption. In our game, we would strongly discourage a character with capped STR from having a STR Aid, just as we would frown on a Mentalist having EDM and Transdimensional Mind Control. Having the above character with capped STR take a STUN Aid might be ok, however, based on his other defenses.

 

Through long trial and error, we eventually found a game balance with Adjustment Powers, but they do make the balancing act more difficult. To summarize how we handle them, players in our game (running over 2 years btw, started at 250 and is now over 450 pts., many different characters were played due to the nature of the campaign) cannot use an adjustment power to break the cap by themselves, but may use it to help a teamate do so. At first this was tough to handle as a GM (the Brick suddenly went from 60 STR to 96, for example) but it forced me and the other GMs (we run 2-3) to adjust our tactics and now the increased complexity is actually more fun. Where once our Bricks were virtually invulnerable and our mentalists were minor deties, now each team member has to make sure his teammates are nearby lest he get hit with a Suppress or attacked by a group of Aided minions and quickly dropped. In other words, we use Adjustment Powers to enhance the team dynamic and not to allow one character to hurdle past the balance caps. Consequently, the Buffer/ Debuffer type character has become as popular in our groups as the standard Brick, Projector, Mentalist, or Speedster and most characters have a power that can directly be used to help a teamate.

[The Main Man]

Re: How do you handle campaign limits on defenses?

 

I do a couple of things:

 

1) The maximum amount of Physical, Energy, Resistant, and Hardened defenses the character may have, when calculated, is determined by the Active Point limit of the campaign.

 

Example: 60 AP could allow for possible combinations such as:

20 rPD/rED

60 PD/ 0 ED

32 PD (Hardened)/ 16 ED (Hardened)

16 rPD (Hardened/ 16 ED (Hardened)

and many more.

 

As for more exotic defenses (Power, Flash, Mind) the PC is limited to having up to half the Active Point limit in any combinations of these defenses, if any at all.

The inclusion of Hardened and Resistant defense Active Points for these types raises that maximum to the full Active Point limit.

Examples in a 60 Active Point Campaign:

10 Power Defense, 10 Mental Defense, 10 Sight Group Flash Defense

15 Power Defense, 15 Mental Defense

30 Mental Defense

and as before, there are many other possible combinations.