Conan/Kull type low fantasy campaigns: Any good?

[Geryon]

Has anyone had any long term success with this type of campaign?

 

I want to run a fantasy hero campaign in a low fantasy type world, like that of Robert Howard's Conan... Basically, my players want something different from the typical high fantasy fare, plus I think it will encourage them to be more open-minded about character design. If the game LOOKS like D&D, I'm afraid they will buy their characters like they are D&D characters, which is what we are switching to hero system to avoid, we want total creative control over the characters.

 

What I was going to ask of you veteran Hero Fantasy-ites was this: Does anyone know where I can get any solid information on this type of game for Hero system?

 

Has any of you ran a game similar to this, and if yes, how did it go, what advice would you have, etc?

 

Thanks

[Killer Shrike]

I like lots of magic in my fantasy games, but I do have some experience with low magic campaigns. You need to keep the game on low points to make it work however, which can get to feel restrictive.

 

I recommend 50+50, and make all magic take either Extra Time and/or Ritual as a mandatory limitation. Also, use every gritty option for hit locations, impairing, and so forth in the book.

 

The problem with this campaign type (IMO) is that it can really seem like spellcasters basically get punished in retribution for "those other fantasy" games where they rule supreme, which can frustrate many players who like powerful magic. So what happens is the usually-a-tad-brighter players who like the extra complexity of a magic system in return for the ability to do more than just swing a sword or hide in shadows chafe under such a system, where as the players that like to roll dice and kill stuff or skulk around and act ninja-like (we all know the type) LOVE it because the direct method of whacking things until they stop moving is usually the correct method. Ive found this kind of setting to be MORE hack & slashy, not less.

 

One thing about the HERO System and High Fantasy that you may not have considered. Not to start another how to do magic items thread, but in many FH games magic items cost points; whether you use Independent or not there is a cost involved. If you do use IND, then items are found points, but they are also easily removed by the GM. You can even do things like use Magic Item VPPs with limitations like Only to Hold Available Magic Items, and dont allow Half Phase changes or Cosmic options, so that basically characters have set lists of Magic Items in thier MI pool, and as items are found/acquired they have to make room in thier Pool to equip them. If they want to increase thier load out capacity, they need to grow thier pool with character points. Thus characters that want to tank up with Magic Items can, and those that dont can spend those points elsewhere.

 

However you go about it, the point is there are a number of ways to curb and curtail the monty haul effect in the HERO System, which can defuse the D&D-esque "Our characters are simply vehicles for Magic Items" problem.

[Geryon]

Thanks, Shrike, lots of good suggestions. I may give up on the low-magic idea and move more towards something with more magic and less of the cultural structure that is present in say for example, forgotten realms, and more towards the conan type world without nuking magic in the process. Hack and Slash isn't what we are after, but I do see what you mean about how easily such a game could become hack and slash. I was thinking about using rituals or more bizarre focuses for the magic, not your typical "eye of newt, toe of beetle" but something more interesting (not sure what) and perhaps have magic items that have to be "bound" to a person for them to perform right as an option instead of independent. This is decent flavor, I will have to get out fred and double check on how the costs work out and such. I like your idea for a VPP for available magic items, though I wonder what sort of limitation should be on the VPP to represent "only items the GM gives your character/lets you have?" Obviously, if it works like a regular VPP, that will be far more flexible than your average character's "magic item stash" even in a high magic game.

[Killer Shrike]

Yeah, you just lock down the VPP with a limitation on the Control Cost, to the extent of Limited Powers Available: Preconstructed Magic Items (-1/2) and Found Items Only (-1/2) or whatever seems right for your cost model.

 

Wizards that want to make items can buy that off, allowing them to create items (likely within some rules structure that youve defined to handle item creation) and then use them in thier pool.

[Mr. Negative]

Regarding a "Conan" type of campaign, it's worth remembering that you don't have to have weak magic to do this type of campaign. You just have to restrict the ease with which PCs can access magic.

 

I myself have wanted to do a Conan type campaign, and have run Lankhmar (Fritz Lieber) campaigns in the past (in D&D, Hero, and GURPS). Magic isn't weak in Lankhmar (in the novels), but it is rare and impressive. You might consider some of the following ideas

 

In Lankhmar, magic is very difficult, time consuming, and labor intensive to learn, so there are little to no "adventuring" wizards (much as we have few say, mercenary quantum physicists).

 

Also, magic there tends to associate itself with bizarre and strange forces, to make magic users both mistrusted and feared.

 

In addition, it does apparently put a strain on the mind as virtually all of the magic users are demented, evil, or otherworldly.

 

Other than the most powerful of wizards, magic seems more suited to elaborate ritual and enchantment than "spell-throwing". Magic items are not unknown, but virtually no wizard will be able to cast an offensive spell in a combat time frame (though some have enchanted wands to do so, or create other types of combat focused magic).

 

These types of restrictions may create an interesting world for you to consider. PC wizards will be rare (or you may even forbid them entirely). On the other hand, you could encounter summoned demons, spell-traps, enchanted items, and even magical locales and phenomenon (in Lankmar, the stars are enchanted gems transported across the sky on waterspouts on the equatorial ocean--maybe).

 

This allows you, as a GM, a great deal of latitude for creativity, but also allows you to make plans without the disruptions of clever PC spell use. You can have a wizard antagonist, who puts the PCs into peril, but not have to worry about the odd ESP spell or whatever disrupting carefully plotted storylines.

 

It will, of course, be very unpopular with people used to D&D who want to play spellcasters. Once again, Lankhmar does have some options. In one of the first (chronologically) stories, the Mouser is trained by a white hedge wizard. Glavas Rho is scorned as a hedge wizard because he focuses on little magics like treating injury, easing childbirth, dealing with pests and poxes instead of the deadly and arcane sorceries people associate with wizards. He does, however, caution his apprentice that to do violence to others requires you to distill your own hatred and malice, and only the most strong-willed men can do so without bringing about doom on their own heads (and even then, only for a short time).

 

This would allow you to have PC spellcasters who could aid the party (healing, defense, perhaps information) and other spell-casters who might cast offensive spells, but must be very careful about them. You might want to make spell-casting based on an EGO roll, and have a major side effect (perhaps a mind/spirit transform) when that EGO roll is failed, and the caster can't control his own violence and anger. With such major side effects, you might allow "black" magicians to have higher active point values on their spells (this would further the distinction between sorcery and petty magic).

 

Note that also, in Lankmar, priests are members of a profession and not spell-casters. Some are good, some are evil, some are faithful, some are charlatans, but the gods don't grant them any powers. In Lankhmar, an atheist is not someone who doesn't believe in the gods (as they obviously exist), but doesn't pay them any attention because they are irrelevant (and nicely enough, the gods of Lankmar only have power over their own followers).

 

This is all a long digression, but I wanted to emphasize that you can do a "high magic" world without having "D&D" magic that is accessible, approachable, and available to the PCs.

[Guest C_Zeree]

I'm guessing keithcurtis has some decent experience. You may want to peruse his Savage Earth website for ideas and tips.

[slaughterj]

I find such swords & sorcery campaigns to be less hack & slash that fireball-slinging, plate mail-wearing D&D.

 

I've played in and run numerous campaigns set in Leiber's Lankhmar setting which were great fun. No elves, limited armor (guards say "hey, he must be up to trouble"), limited weapons (see armor), mysterious sorceries abound, but less so in the players' hands, etc. To me, these are among the best fantasy gaming out there. Many such campaigns have had no party mages.

 

Suggested materials: GURPS Conan (and read at least the first 6, if not first 11 or so novels); D&D's Lankhmar setting (on ebay often; 6 original Leiber novels and 1 other)

[slaughterj]

Hey Mr. Negative, you're near me, do I know you? Got any swords & sorcery-style games going on?

[Geryon]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Hey Mr. Negative, you're near me, do I know you? Got any swords & sorcery-style games going on?

 

Slaughter, if you are in durham, the game I am thinking of starting is going to take place in chapel hill around the beginning of september, if I can get my stuff together in time.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Geryon

Slaughter, if you are in durham, the game I am thinking of starting is going to take place in chapel hill around the beginning of september, if I can get my stuff together in time.

 

Very interesting. I may have a few others interested as well

 

We haven't met by chance, have we?

[GreyGuardian]

Reading Howard's other fiction like Kull and Bran Mac Morn might give you some other good ideas to fit into the game. If you have a gaming group and are starting a new setting - ASK them if they are willing to try Low fantasy. Maybe hook them by writting up an intro scenario with start characters to give them a feel for it.

 

Regarding HERO source books for these types of games check the 2004 schedule:

 

The Turakian Age: The first setting book for Fantasy Hero, the Turakian Age sourcebook describes what Earth was like tens of thousands of years ago, when the shape of the land was different and magic ruled the world. Detailing dozens of kingdoms and lands (from the mighty Hargeshite Empire of Vashkhor, to the black and mysterious realm of Thfn, to the windswept Gorthundan Steppes), a complete magic system with dozens of new spells, an entire pantheon of exotic gods, and hundreds of opportunities for adventure, it’s an ideal setting for any Fantasy Hero campaign.

Author: Steven S. Long

Tentative Release Date: Early 2004

Tentative Size: 192 pages

Tentative Price: $24.99

 

and

 

The Valdorian Age: This setting book for Fantasy Hero details the epoch after the Turakian Age — a time of swords and sorcery, sword-wielding warrior-lords, beautiful princes, mysterious magic, and dark, ancient cults. The book includes information on the realms of the Valdorian world, a complete magic system with over a hundred pre-generated spells and detailed rules for priestly magic, and enough adventure ideas and possibilities to satisfy any GM.

Author: Allen Thomas

Tentative Release Date: Late 2004

Tentative Size: 192 pages

Tentative Price: $24.99

[Citizen Keen]

Mr. Negative kind of beat me to it - I was going to ask how often in Conan/Kull the wizards were the good guys?

[Qamar]

Re: Conan/Kull type low fantasy campaigns: Any good?

 

Originally posted by Geryon

What I was going to ask of you veteran Hero Fantasy-ites was this: Does anyone know where I can get any solid information on this type of game for Hero system?

 

One excellent source, though tough to find, is the out-of-print GURPS Conan sourcebook. While not Hero, the concepts are easy to port over and it gives an excellent thumbnail view of the world.

 

Has any of you ran a game similar to this, and if yes, how did it go, what advice would you have, etc?

 

I've run a few Conan inspired mini-campaigns with moderate success. The biggest problem was getting players to think in terms of S&S and not high fantasy.

 

Make magic rare (i.e. no +1 OCV swords laying around) and powerful in a focused way. Most magic in the Conan stories required elaborate preparation and very little was of the "snap fingers and something happens" variety.

 

Monsters also were rare and powerful. No orcs.

[Toadmaster]

Two other sources you might pick through for ideas are Runequest (Chaosium and Avalon HIll) and Riddle of Steel (Drift wood publishing).

 

In Runequest magic is based around the use of runes, so you can limit how much magic is available based on how often you allow the characters to get runes, it's been years since I even opened the books but when I was playing fairly regularly (early 80's) we never had that much magic, but it was out there.

 

I recently bought Riddle of Steel so I haven't made it through the whole book, but the game world looks interesting, non humans are rare and magic is unusual. Due to the way chargen is handled having the ability to use magic is expensive (chargen is based on assigning priorities to stats, race, social standing, etc magic ability takes your highest priority slot).

 

Either of these magic systems should allow you to maintain magic in your world but strictly control it and introduce it at your leasure (like as they get more comfortable with HERO), both are very differant from D&D.

[Mr. Negative]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Hey Mr. Negative, you're near me, do I know you? Got any swords & sorcery-style games going on?

 

Right now, unfortunately no. Two of my regular RPGers have children, and three of my regular wargamers have children (or are expecting) (and overlap with my regular RPGers). Thus, it is a struggle just to get together for one night a week (which we usually reserve for Warhammer).

 

I love role-playing at least as much, if not more than miniature wargaming, but I have to admit that it is REAL CONVENIENT that with wargaming, no one has to prep the entire adventure, and that, in theory, you can finish an army and then just use it to play each week. Also, you can wargame regardless of who shows up, but getting a sufficient group to show up regularly for gaming is almost impossible with my gaming buddies. I'm unfulfilled in my gaming thirst, but convenience often trumps everything else.

[Guest Dr.Unpossible]

Its for d20, but MAN! these are great weppages for Sword and Sorcery gamming. You could "gleen" allot of good material from these 2 sites for "Savage Sword of Conan" campaign using Fantasy HERO.

 

Vincent N. Delarge's: Conan d20 site

 

The Hyborian Age d20 site

 

 

[OddHat]

For a somewhat different fantasy setting, I'd suggest David Gemmell's worlds (the Druss the Legend or Stones of Power books). You can set the point totals as high as you like (Legend features at least 350 point characters), as long as you restrict special effects, advantages and limitations. Try this:

 

1) Few magic items available. Those that do exist either have side effects (the axe Snaga cursed its weilder with bloodlust and drove him berserk) or an End reserve / charges that never recover (the Danniel Stones End Reserve never recovers, but that limit could be traded for Side Effects, turning them into Blood Stones).

 

2. Direct damage spells and spells that have a visable manifestation (i.e. EBs, RKAs, Summon, etc.) can only be cast through (rare) magic items, in the Other World, or with greatly increased END costs. PC mages casting in the physical world mostly use spells with invisible power effects or Ego Powers.

 

3. Keep point totals around 150 for starting characters.

 

4. Most spells require concentration and a skill roll.

 

5. No elves, orcs or other tolkienesque races. Monsters are found in the Other World, or (rarely) brought into ours. Some human-animal mixes are created through sorcery, and generally have a very short life span (though at least two books feature such characters as "players").

 

Hero is a very flexible system, and you can controll the "feel" of your game world quite well by choosing the right source material.

[Savinien]

Hyborian Age Site

 

Dr. Unpossible -

 

What font are they using for that Hyborian Age site? I can't read anything. My browser is defaulting to Web-Dings or something.

 

Talk about illegible!

[slaughterj]

Re: Re: Conan/Kull type low fantasy campaigns: Any good?

 

Originally posted by Qamar

One excellent source, though tough to find, is the out-of-print GURPS Conan sourcebook. While not Hero, the concepts are easy to port over and it gives an excellent thumbnail view of the world.

 

Yep, great book, got at least 1 copy of it, and I can probably dig through my big box o' Conan stuff to direct to other things, e.g. the 1980s box set has useful stuff in it (referring to the Conan RPG by TSR), and there's some other out-of-print stuff I've got that's good - like I said, can dig through it to give references to good stuff if people need to know.

 

Originally posted by Qamar

Monsters also were rare and powerful. No orcs.

 

Yeah, no elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.! Get Picts and Serpent-Men instead!

[Old Man]

Re: Hyborian Age Site

 

Originally posted by Savinien

Dr. Unpossible -

 

What font are they using for that Hyborian Age site? I can't read anything. My browser is defaulting to Web-Dings or something.

 

Talk about illegible!

 

It's using a stylesheet, and the specified fonts are Times and "Kosher". You could try setting your browser not to use stylesheets, or else reboot--it is very odd to me that you wouldn't be able to see Times.

[Guest Dr.Unpossible]

I've heard nothing but praise from Conan fans for David Gemmels work. I need to order those books off of Amazon so I can start at the beginning of the series. The local megabookstore only have the 3rd compilation in the series.

[Savinien]

Odd to me, too.

 

I have rebooted and still nothing but boxes. Thanks for the attempted assist though, Old Man. I guess I'll just have to do without...

 

Has anyone actually mentioned some magic systems or given a URL to theirs? I've only been involved in the Hero System for a few years and building a Magic System from scratch doesn't seem workable to me at this time.

 

I know I'm looking for a Sword & Sorcery type system. I also know that I want wizards to still be playable, though. Does anyone have any suggestions as a method or process to use when hashing out a system (s) for a given campaign?

 

I'm rather overwhelmed by all of the variables and then just sink myself worrying the details.

[starblaze]

Originally posted by Citizen Keen

Mr. Negative kind of beat me to it - I was going to ask how often in Conan/Kull the wizards were the good guys?

Very rarely, there was only one I can remember that was a druid who was a counselor to Conan when he was King of Aquinolia. Kull had this one wizard called Gonar who also appeared in the Bran Mac Morn stories. Apparently he was cursed to live until all the picts were dead.

[OddHat]

Re: Odd to me, too.

 

Originally posted by Savinien

Has anyone actually mentioned some magic systems or given a URL to theirs? I've only been involved in the Hero System for a few years and building a Magic System from scratch doesn't seem workable to me at this time.

 

Easiest set of limits for a Swords and Sorcery feel to magic:

 

All spells require skill roll (-1/2), Gestures and incantations (-1/2), 1/2 DCV concentration or worse (-1/4), Extra Time (-1/4 or more), and some sort of focus, often an expendible focus (-1/4 or more). Total minimum spell limits: -1 3/4. Wizards go down fast in HTH combat but can be tough with time to prepare or fighting from a distance. Lots of Summon spells rather than direct attack and defense ("Now face my army of poorly animated claymation figures!"). Most mages seem to have a fairly limited range, so MPs would be appropriate, maybe an EC as well. VPP only for NPCs, and never Cosmic. Very, very few magic items, but those that are out there are powerful and valuable. Force Fields and other personal defense spells should be limited, but Force Walls are fine (if the swordsman gets to the mage, he should be able to kill him, with rare exceptions). The rare wand of lightning or such might be acceptible, but wizards should rarely be that adept at any kind of fast, direct magical attack. Mind Control, Clairsentience and other Ego powers are staples of the genre.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by starblaze

Very rarely, there was only one I can remember that was a druid who was a counselor to Conan when he was King of Aquinolia. Kull had this one wizard called Gonar who also appeared in the Bran Mac Morn stories. Apparently he was cursed to live until all the picts were dead.

 

IIRC, in one pastiche, Conan rescued a wizard Pelias(?), who was good...like I said though, IIRC, it was a pastiche, not an original Howard story, but could be wrong...