Savate: Sport and Martial Art

[proditor]

Not sure if this will be of use to anyone, but I figure knowledge, even trivia like this, can't be a bad thing. Plus, if anyone is inspired to take a whack at writing up Modern Savate and Defense Savate, I'd be glad to help, or just enjoy the fruits of their labors.

 

Savate as presented in the UMA is really nice representation of well, Savate, or Boxe Francaise from the early to mid 20th century. It is a sport. Codified and with clearly accepted punches and kicks, no clinching (like Boxing) and no "ground game" to lift an MMA term. I'm not sure where the names for the moves came from though, as they are not the ones used in modern Savate.

 

But much like Kendo is the sporting form of the fighting style of Kenjitsu, Savate is the sporting form of a much nastier style of street-fighting called alternately; Savate de Rue, Savate de Defense, or Defense Savate.

 

There are four accepted styles of kicks and punches in Savate. There is a heavy emphasis on dodging, and the lateral step to avoid an attack is a fundamental starting point of three of the four kick styles. Blocking is also taught, but it's more like the close block/parry of boxing, than the wider blocks of some Eastern styles. (I'm mostly thinking about the basic Karate high block)

 

Most of this goes out the window with the wider Fighting style/Martial Art. In addition to the above, you learn things like "The Knuckle Breaker", a block that involves intercepting the enemy's punch with your elbow on the nice breaky points of the fingers. There is a similar knee block for your opponent's feet/toes as well.

 

There is also an entire series of takedowns, holds, clinches, and throws that are obviously absent from the sporting form. As the years have gone on, Savate has stayed true to it's heritage of absorbing whatever worked (It gets all it's punches from Boxing for instance) including grappling, submission, and ground game. Like most modern martial arts, it is reviewed constantly and updated. In 2003 for instance, a special sub section was created called "Savate Baton" that specifically taught police officers how to use the police baton, a tonfa, effectively with Savate and Canne fighting techniques.

 

In the US, it's all but impossible to find a teacher for Defense Savate. You can find a teacher for Savate with only a little difficulty, but the only places teaching the fighting style as opposed to the sport, are in France. There are students of Defense Savate teaching Savate in the US and Canada, but as yet, the full fighting style is not anywhere near as popular as the sport outside of law enforcement circles.

[tkdguy]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

It's very interesting. I've been curious about the system for a while, and I even found (with great difficulty) a copy of Bruce Tegner's book on Savate. Aside from that, all I've seen from it was what was shown on Human Weapon and Fight Quest.

 

I had thought about making a western martial artist. He would use Savate and Fencing as his arts. Perhaps he'd also know some Greco-Roman Wrestling.

 

Thanks for the info. Repped when I recharge.

[bubba smith]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

It's very interesting. I've been curious about the system for a while, and I even found (with great difficulty) a copy of Bruce Tegner's book on Savate. Aside from that, all I've seen from it was what was shown on Human Weapon and Fight Quest.

 

I had thought about making a western martial artist. He would use Savate and Fencing as his arts. Perhaps he'd also know some Greco-Roman Wrestling.

 

Thanks for the info. Repped when I recharge.

the MA documentary seriesDEADLY ARTS also had an episode on savate

[Doc Shocker]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Everything I know about Savate I learned from Batroc the Leaper!

[proditor]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

The thing that amazed me was that Savate is SERIOUSLY paired down from Savate de Rue. I mean, the overwhelming majority of moves are illegal in Savate. And in terms of effectiveness, Savate is really no better or worse off than kick-boxing. Also, most of what I knew about Savate I learned from Batroc, Oliver Gruner, or the UMA. Modern Savate is really pretty different because of the seriously heavy dodging element. I was never ever on my toes half as much in Goju-Ryu. If someone wanted to make a "Close enough" version of Modern Savate, they could just add Martial Dodge to the Savate package from UMA and probably call it a day.

 

Savate de Rue is just plain old ornery meanness. It shares a similar methodology to Kajukenbo. Do whatever you need to end the fight. Punch, Kick, Throw, Hold, Lock. The more I spoke with my instructor, the more amazed I got honestly. I'm taking Savate, but there's a really good chance I'll be saving up for private instruction in Savate de Rue. He freely admits he'd just be teaching me the "basics", but I really am fascinated to see how the wider style works. Right now I just get snippets when he teaches us "Defense Savate" moves once every two weeks as part of the standard class.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

There is also an entire series of takedowns' date=' holds, clinches, and throws that are obviously absent from the sporting form. As the years have gone on, Savate has stayed true to it's heritage of absorbing whatever worked (It gets all it's punches from Boxing for instance) including grappling, submission, and ground game.[/quote']

 

Well, not all it's punches. No one in boxing throws the two Swings

 

Savate in America is frequently tied very closely with JKD. Almost all the people I know that do Savate in any form come from a JKD background.

[proditor]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Well, not all it's punches. No one in boxing throws the two Swings

 

Savate in America is frequently tied very closely with JKD. Almost all the people I know that do Savate in any form come from a JKD background.

 

Which swings? This might be a West Coast/East Coast thing, but the four punches we learned were Direct-Lead(Jab), Direct-Rear(cross), Hook, and Uppercut.

 

Or it might be a Savate de Rue thing come to think of it, we've learned a lot more strikes in Defense Savate including palm strikes and an esoteric "reverse pimp slap".

[fiducia]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Which swings? This might be a West Coast/East Coast thing, but the four punches we learned were Direct-Lead(Jab), Direct-Rear(cross), Hook, and Uppercut.

 

Or it might be a Savate de Rue thing come to think of it, we've learned a lot more strikes in Defense Savate including palm strikes and an esoteric "reverse pimp slap".

 

Don't forget the flying fist of upward hurt!!

[proditor]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Don't forget the flying fist of upward hurt!!

 

Oh, the hip-twist, closed fist to the bottom of the jaw? Yeah, I forgot about that one.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Which swings? This might be a West Coast/East Coast thing, but the four punches we learned were Direct-Lead(Jab), Direct-Rear(cross), Hook, and Uppercut.

 

Or it might be a Savate de Rue thing come to think of it, we've learned a lot more strikes in Defense Savate including palm strikes and an esoteric "reverse pimp slap".

 

Might be the reverse pimp slap...

 

The Swing is kind of a looping punch delivered thumb down so the back of the fist makes contact. It's thrown from the lead (Swing Bras Avant) or rear hand (Swing Bras Arriere). As far as I remember, it was one of the ring legal hand techniques, but it's been years...

[proditor]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Might be the reverse pimp slap...

 

The Swing is kind of a looping punch delivered thumb down so the back of the fist makes contact. It's thrown from the lead (Swing Bras Avant) or rear hand (Swing Bras Arriere). As far as I remember, it was one of the ring legal hand techniques, but it's been years...

 

Might that have been pre-2001?

 

Apparently there were two major changes to Savate in 2001 and again in 2003, though the latter was more to the actual progams, than what was legal in the ring.

 

And I do remember that punch, but I remember it from a previous Defense Savate class. I'll ask my teacher what they did with it.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Might that have been pre-2001?

 

yeah, 1996 or there about.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Savate in America is frequently tied very closely with JKD. Almost all the people I know that do Savate in any form come from a JKD background.

 

Thanks to both you and the OP for this fascinating bit on La Savate. As a martial art it's fascinated me for a long time.

 

BTW, I suppose I might as well ask this here -- does anyone know what the French phrase "Gamins de Rue" means? I assume it means something involving HtH combat from the way I've heard it used.

[proditor]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

The only part I know is that de Rue means "of the street", roughly.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Looking it up the translation would basically be "street urchin". I think...

 

But I'm not at all familiar with that term, so I couldn't say if it has some other contextual meaning.

 

Do we have any French posters on the boards?

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Looking it up the translation would basically be "street urchin". I think...

 

But I'm not at all familiar with that term, so I couldn't say if it has some other contextual meaning.

 

Do we have any French posters on the boards?

 

I heard it used in Tim Power's secret history/espionage/horror novel Declare, to describe the 'rough work' specialists of French espionage agencies.

[proditor]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Minor Thread Necro here, I just wanted to post some quick video links so that people can see the difference between Savate, and Savate Defense.

 

The first video also shows a small snippet of the INSANE cane fighting style.

 

 

Next, Savate Defense, Basic and Advanced. In Basic, watch for headbutts, knee strikes, and the dreaded knuckle breaker elbow block. On the Advanced clip, watch for all the holds, locks, chokes and throws.

 

 

 

 

And now to close out, some crazy stick fighting.

 

 

That was, again, a sporting form. Canne de Combat. The actual fighting style is Canne d'Arme

 

So here's my one request for 6e. You have Basque Kick-boxing in 5e, so moving forward, for pete's sake, fix Savate.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

So here's my one request for 6e. You have Basque Kick-boxing in 5e' date=' so moving forward, for pete's sake, fix Savate. [/quote']

 

I'd be quite happy to consult on a rewrite of UMA based on my own experiences, my large collection of training materials and my willingness to travel around to do interviews and participate in seminars for the sake of authenticity

 

Of course, most styles would end up with a huge number of maneuvers if you gave them more fleshed out write-ups. There are pros and cons to this approach...

[proditor]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

I'd be quite happy to consult on a rewrite of UMA based on my own experiences, my large collection of training materials and my willingness to travel around to do interviews and participate in seminars for the sake of authenticity

 

Of course, most styles would end up with a huge number of maneuvers if you gave them more fleshed out write-ups. There are pros and cons to this approach...

 

Granted, I just want it to be a little closer. Add one hold, one throw and dodge, and you're probably pretty close. Add Dodge to the existing package and you probably have a good representation of the sport.

 

And regarding the potential for too many moves, all I say in response: Kung Fu.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

*Looks at the videos*

 

Okay, now how do you chant Now that's hardcore! in French?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Granted' date=' I just want it to be a little closer. Add one hold, one throw and dodge, and you're probably pretty close. Add Dodge to the existing package and you probably have a good representation of the sport. [/quote']

 

I agree 100% with the addition of Martial Dodge

 

In my opinion, I think there should be a a generic "Self-Defense" package that every art can take. The way I figure it, virtually all styles that have an actual self defense application have several Martial Maneuvers in common.

 

Nerve Strike - your basic Groin Stirke.

Martial Flash - Eye Poke/Gouge

Martial Throw or Takedown - Virtually every style teaches you a way to trip, sweep or throw someone.

Martial Escape/Martial Hold - virtually every style at least teaches how to get out of a bear hug, wrist grab or lapel hold. Most styles also teach how to apply some kind of restraining hold.

Martial Disarm - Again, every self defense style learns how to do this to some degree or another.

Martial Block or Dodge - one or the other, sometimes both

[Maelstrom]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Honestly, I think an escrimador would rip up the cane-fighters. Too much emphasis on the aesthetic. I see a largo mano clip to the wrist, then going deep inside for maximum ownage.

[proditor]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

Honestly' date=' I think an escrimador would rip up the cane-fighters. Too much emphasis on the aesthetic. I see a largo mano clip to the wrist, then going deep inside for maximum ownage.[/quote']

 

I have no clue since that's only the sporting form, and it was specifically built around the aesthetic to be a sport. Much like Savate and Savate Defense, Canne de Combat and Canne d'Arme are two very different animals.

[palaskar]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

I speak and read French.

 

I believe the correct wording is "Savate dans la rue" -- literally, "Savate in the street."

 

"That's hardcore!" would be most closely translated "C'est dur!" ("That's hard!") or "Formidable!" (Closest translation, "Awesome!")

[Bloodstone]

Re: Savate: Sport and Martial Art

 

I have no clue since that's only the sporting form' date=' and it was specifically built around the aesthetic to be a sport. Much like Savate and Savate Defense, Canne de Combat and Canne d'Arme are two very different animals.[/quote']

 

I could post links to Dog Brothers... which is generally about as unpretty as it gets... but this is a Savate thread, so I won't