Complex Sectional Armor

[TheChainTyrant]

Hello. First off I'd like to say that I'll be using the hit location rules, and that the armor is intended for a heavy fighter type in a AP 75 limit super-fantasy game.

 

I've been interested in constructing an armor power that will provide varying levels of protection based on the hit location. The head, vitals, and stomach areas possessing the greatest protection, and the hands, arms, legs, and feet possessing lighter protection.

 

My only problem is that I don't know what limitations to apply to each part of the defenses. The armor coverage table in the core rulebook (page 488) is far from granular enough. I would need limitation values for all the hit location groups, (3-5, 6, 7-8, 10-11, so on...) Is this possible, or does another way of going about this exist?

 

Thanks. Once I've figured this out I'll post my completed armor power if anyone's interested.

[Lucius]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

It sounds like what you want is a full helm - something covering the neck and everything above it - and something covering the entire torso, like a breastplate + skirtplate combination, as the heaviest armor, and then lighter protection in the form of gauntlets, sleeves, boots, and leggings.

 

Exactly how many different "levels" of protection are you wanting? If it's going to be a simple "level 1" (whatever DEF value you decide that is) all over and "level 2" (whatever higher DEF value you pick) on the head and torso, I don't see why you can't use the limitation value of -1 for the level 2 DEF. The page number you mention specifies it for locations "4-5, 9-14" but I suspect you can get your Game Operations Director to let you include location 3 as well (it only comes up once in, what, 216 rolls? )

 

Just buy the level 1 armor without the coverage limitation, then buy more armor that stacks with it but apply the coverage limitation. Then every time you're hit you'll get the basic protection, and if the hit location roll indicates head or torso, you'll get the extra protection.

 

Does that answer the question? Or is it more complicated?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Buying barding for a palindromedary

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

There's a chart on page 488, Armor Coverage Table, that breaks it down and gives lim vals. If thats not granular enough for your purposes, just realize that the the Hit Location lim is modeled on top of Activation Roll and you should be able to break it down further. However, Lims don't get anymore granular than -1/4 increments so going more granular may not always result in a difference in lim step values.

[Outsider]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

Chances in 216 to hit a given location :

 

_3 : _1

_4 : _3

_5 : _6

_6 : 10

_7 : 15

_8 : 21

_9 : 25

10 : 27

11 : 27

12 : 25

13 : 21

14 : 15

15 : 10

16 : _6

17 : _3

18 : _1

 

Activation roll vs chance to work in 216ths "

_8- : 56

_9- : 81

10- : 108

11- : 135

13- : 181

14- : 196

15- : 206

 

Just add up the value of the covered locations from table 1, and compare with table 2.

 

Example : Head, vitals, and stomach (locations 3, 4, 5, 12, 13) have a 1, 3, 6, 25, and 21 out of 216 chance of being hit, or 56 chances out of 216 total. 56/216ths covered is the equivalent of an 8- Activation, so defenses that only work against hits to those locations are bought with a -2 limitation.

 

 

 

 

Or at least that's how I'd do it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

The simplest way to to do this is to work out what your minimum armour is - buy that all over. Then buy the next heaviest amour to cover your desired areas: work out what the activation roll is (the table for that has already been posted) and buy it with that limit and so on.

 

So for example, a suit that gave 8 PD/ED to the hands and feet, 16 PD/ED to the arms and legs and 24 PD/ED to the torso and head would be bought as:

 

8 PD/ED

+8 PD/ED (act 11-, -1)

+8 PD/ED (act 8-, -2)

 

- or if you were using hit locations, covering the designated areas. In play you simply roll your location or activation roll: with the latter if you roll 12+ you get 8 DEF, if you roll 11 to 9, you get 16 DEF and if you roll 8- you get 24 DEF (for example)

 

cheers, Mark

[TheChainTyrant]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

Alright, I've worked out the math using the activation rolls provided by Outsider. This looked like a great way to go about doing it, and my original aim was to save some points by cutting down on armor where I didn't need it. Alas this didn't work out quite as I'd have liked.

 

I separated the hit locations into three sections, each with a different armor value based on the locations vulnerability. The activation rolls and the limitation values are included for each section.

 

Section 1: (3-5, 12, 13)

Section 2: (9, 10-11)

Section 3: (6, 7-8, 14, 15-16, 17-18)

 

Section 1: (1+3+6+25+21) (56/216) (8-)

Section 2: (25+27+27) (79/216) (9-)

Section 3: (10+15+21+15+10+6+3+1) (81/216) (9-)

 

Section 1: (-2)

Section 2: (-1 ½)

Section 3: (-1 ½)

 

Here I work out the cost of each section of armor, Sections 1, 2, and 3 having an armor value of 25, 20, and 10 respectively. Note that I include the Double Listed Mass limitation. This will affect the real cost of the armor, but it'll still remain useful in comparisons.

 

Armor (25 PD/25 ED) (75 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-2). Total Cost: 15

Armor (20 PD/ 20 ED) (60 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 13

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 7

Total Cost: 35

 

This cost seemed a bit high, so I went and did what Markdoc suggested, buying the minimum armor all over, then adding more on other sections. The first line is the overall protection, the other two being Sections 1 and 2.

 

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½). Total Cost: 10

Armor (15 PD/15 ED) (45 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-2). Total Cost: 9

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 7

Total Cost: 26

 

This is better, but when you consider that to just buy 25 PD/25 ED all over using the same limitations costs 25 points, it just isn't worth it.

 

Armor (25 PD/25 ED) (75 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½). Total Cost: 25

 

Like I said, I was looking to save some points by cutting off some of the excess protection, and it certainly made sense to me that some suits of armor would have less protection in some areas and more in others, but you just end up getting less for more cost.

[Kdansky]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

That certainly is interesting, you have found a quirk in the limitation system

[sbarron]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

I think using straight hit-location coverage percentages is a poor way to limit armor in a game that's using hit locations. Buying additional armor for only vulnerable areas should be less limiting than buying additional armor for non-vulnerable areas. And since that's clear as mud...it should be more expensive to buy extra coverage for your head than it is to buy extra coverage for your foot. Hit location 3 should be more expensive to defend than hit location 18, even though they are both hit 1 time in 216. To me, not taking the vulnerability into account is missing something. Though, it is more complicated that way.

 

Lastly, "Double Listed Mass" would raise my eyebrows if I were the GM. In a super-fantasy game, I'm guessing your character's STR will be high enough to easily manage this armor plus a lot more. To me, that's a limit that isn't very limiting. I guess there would need to be a lot of STR draining going on to make it a limit worth (-1 1/2). A LOT of STR draining, and maybe some tumbles into deep water.

[sbarron]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½). Total Cost: 10

Armor (15 PD/15 ED) (45 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-2). Total Cost: 9

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 7

Total Cost: 26

 

This is better, but when you consider that to just buy 25 PD/25 ED all over using the same limitations costs 25 points, it just isn't worth it.

 

Armor (25 PD/25 ED) (75 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½). Total Cost: 25

This system could work, but you'd actually have to divide up the cost of Armor before applying any limitations.

 

10PD/10ED Armor is worth 30 points, and it covers all 16 hit locations, and all 216 possible rolls. 10PD/10ED Armor that covers hit locations 3-5, 12, and 13, or 56 out of 216 possibilities, using straight percentile ratios, should cost 8 points. (56/216 = .26, .26*30 = 7.77, rounded up to 8.) Applying the OIF and Double Mass on this would get you a cost of 3 for that additional 10PD/10ED Armor.

 

In summation, because this armor is only covering 26% of the player, he should only have to pay 26% of the cost of the armor. Then, because that 26% of coverage is further limited by OIF and Mass, the cost is brought down even more.

 

But like I said before, certain hit locations are more equal than others...

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

Another way to do it is to calculate the "damage probability". To do this you multiple the STUN multiplier with the roll probability and divide by the average Stun multiplier (2.866)/Reproduced below - Divide by 216 to get the percentage.

 

Chances in 216 to hit/damage a given location :

Damage Product

_3 : _1 _1.75

_4 : _3 _5.23

_5 : _6 10.47

_6 : 10 _3.49

_7 : 15 10.47

_8 : 21 14.66

_9 : 25 26.17

10 : 27 28.27

11 : 27 28.27

12 : 25 34.90

13 : 21 29.31

14 : 15 10.47

15 : 10 _6.98

16 : _6 _4.19

17 : _3 _1.05

18 : _1 _0.35

 

Activation roll vs chance to work in 216ths "

_8- : 56

_9- : 81

10- : 108

11- : 135

13- : 181

14- : 196

15- : 206

 

Just add up the value of the covered locations from table 1, and compare with table 2.

 

Example : Head, vitals, and stomach (locations 3, 4, 5, 12, 13) have a 1, 3, 6, 25, and 21 out of 216 chance of being hit, or 56 chances out of 216 total. 56/216ths covered is the equivalent of an 8- Activation, so defenses that only work against hits to those locations are bought with a -2 limitation.

 

With the damage component added in head, vitals, and stomach accounts (3-5, 12-13) for 81.65 of the damage out of 216 total so the activation roll should be 9- (-1 1/2). This better reflects the protective benefit the armor provides. You could modify the multipliers to account for BODY X and N STUN x as well. If you take the straight average of these three damage modes these locations work out to 86.16 (slightly higher, but still 9-). I've added an attachment that does the math and you could customize to your preference.

 

 

 

Or at least that's how I'd do it.

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

Alright, I've worked out the math using the activation rolls provided by Outsider. This looked like a great way to go about doing it, and my original aim was to save some points by cutting down on armor where I didn't need it. Alas this didn't work out quite as I'd have liked.

 

I separated the hit locations into three sections, each with a different armor value based on the locations vulnerability. The activation rolls and the limitation values are included for each section.

 

Section 1: (3-5, 12, 13)

Section 2: (9, 10-11)

Section 3: (6, 7-8, 14, 15-16, 17-18)

 

Section 1: (1+3+6+25+21) (56/216) (8-)

Section 2: (25+27+27) (79/216) (9-)

Section 3: (10+15+21+15+10+6+3+1) (81/216) (9-)

 

Section 1: (-2)

Section 2: (-1 ½)

Section 3: (-1 ½)

 

Here I work out the cost of each section of armor, Sections 1, 2, and 3 having an armor value of 25, 20, and 10 respectively. Note that I include the Double Listed Mass limitation. This will affect the real cost of the armor, but it'll still remain useful in comparisons.

 

Armor (25 PD/25 ED) (75 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-2). Total Cost: 15

Armor (20 PD/ 20 ED) (60 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 13

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 7

Total Cost: 35

 

This cost seemed a bit high, so I went and did what Markdoc suggested, buying the minimum armor all over, then adding more on other sections. The first line is the overall protection, the other two being Sections 1 and 2.

 

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½). Total Cost: 10

Armor (15 PD/15 ED) (45 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-2). Total Cost: 9

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 7

Total Cost: 26

 

This is better, but when you consider that to just buy 25 PD/25 ED all over using the same limitations costs 25 points, it just isn't worth it.

 

Armor (25 PD/25 ED) (75 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½). Total Cost: 25

 

Like I said, I was looking to save some points by cutting off some of the excess protection, and it certainly made sense to me that some suits of armor would have less protection in some areas and more in others, but you just end up getting less for more cost.

 

I would actually break it out as follows:

Armor (10/10) All - 10 pts.

+Armor (10/10) - Sections 3-5, 9-13 - Using my damage weighting (12- Sectional (-3/4) - 8 pts.

+Armor (5/5) 3-5, 12-13 - Using my damage weighting (9-) Sectional (-1 1/2) - 3 pts.

 

So you get the sectional armor for a total of 10+8+3 = 21 pts. Subdividing into overlapping coverage probably minimizes the limitation granularity.

[TheChainTyrant]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

...it should be more expensive to buy extra coverage for your head than it is to buy extra coverage for your foot...

 

I agree, but the only limitation I can think of to make armor sectional, activation rolls, does not take this into account.

 

Lastly' date=' "Double Listed Mass" would raise my eyebrows if I were the GM. In a super-fantasy game, I'm guessing your character's STR will be high enough to easily manage this armor plus a lot more. To me, that's a limit that isn't very limiting. I guess there would need to be a lot of STR draining going on to make it a limit worth (-1 1/2). A LOT of STR draining, and maybe some tumbles into deep water.[/quote']

 

True, and perhaps just wishful thinking on my part. In a way, though, I've already paid the points to be able to wear such heavy armor by buying the appropriate strength. Why should I be forced to pay for light or weightless armor when I can shoulder the burden?

[Outsider]

Re: Complex Sectional Armor

 

Alright, I've worked out the math using the activation rolls provided by Outsider. This looked like a great way to go about doing it, and my original aim was to save some points by cutting down on armor where I didn't need it. Alas this didn't work out quite as I'd have liked.

 

I separated the hit locations into three sections, each with a different armor value based on the locations vulnerability. The activation rolls and the limitation values are included for each section.

 

Section 1: (3-5, 12, 13)

Section 2: (9, 10-11)

Section 3: (6, 7-8, 14, 15-16, 17-18)

 

Section 1: (1+3+6+25+21) (56/216) (8-)

Section 2: (25+27+27) (79/216) (9-)

Section 3: (10+15+21+15+10+6+3+1) (81/216) (9-)

 

Section 1: (-2)

Section 2: (-1 ½)

Section 3: (-1 ½)

 

Here I work out the cost of each section of armor, Sections 1, 2, and 3 having an armor value of 25, 20, and 10 respectively. Note that I include the Double Listed Mass limitation. This will affect the real cost of the armor, but it'll still remain useful in comparisons.

 

Armor (25 PD/25 ED) (75 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-2). Total Cost: 15

Armor (20 PD/ 20 ED) (60 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 13

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 7

Total Cost: 35

 

This cost seemed a bit high, so I went and did what Markdoc suggested, buying the minimum armor all over, then adding more on other sections. The first line is the overall protection, the other two being Sections 1 and 2.

 

 

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½). Total Cost: 10

Armor (15 PD/15 ED) (45 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-2). Total Cost: 9

Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); OIF (-½), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½), Sectional (-1 ½). Total Cost: 7

Total Cost: 26

 

This is better, but when you consider that to just buy 25 PD/25 ED all over using the same limitations costs 25 points, it just isn't worth it.

 

Armor (25 PD/25 ED) (75 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Double Listed Mass (-1 ½). Total Cost: 25

 

Like I said, I was looking to save some points by cutting off some of the excess protection, and it certainly made sense to me that some suits of armor would have less protection in some areas and more in others, but you just end up getting less for more cost.

 

 

If I am reading this right, you want a total of 10PD/ED armor everywhere, 20 PD/ED in the chest/shoulder, and 25 total in the head, stomach, and vitals. What you need to do (and what meant for you to do, but didnt make clear) is add each layer successively starting with the highest activation chace, not buy each section entirely seperately. The active points on the armor should be the active points on the highest value at any location.

 

So..

 

10 (30) Armor (10 rPD, 10rED)*

_____(-1/2) OIF

_____(-1 1/2) Heavy

 

plus

 

7 (30) Armor (10 rPD, 10rED)**

_____(-1/2) OIF

_____(-1 1/2) Heavy

_____(-1) Activation (11-)

 

plus

3 (15) Armor (5 rPD, 5 rED)***

_____(-1/2) OIF

_____(-1 1/2) Heavy

_____(-2) Activation (8-)

 

 

*Covers all locations, so no additional limitation

**Covers locations 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 = 135/216 locations = 11- Activation = -1 Limitation

***Covers locations 3, 4, 5, 12, 13 = 56/216 locations = 8- Activation = -2 Limitation

 

A total of 20 points instead of the 25 that full coverage full value armor would be.

 

 

What is really preventing this from working as well as it might isnt the method for calculating the coverage, but the fact that you're stacking the coverage limitation on top of some pretty hefty other limitations, and, as we all know, adding more limitations to a power to lower its costs gives diminishing returns. The first -1/4 limitation on a power reduces its cost by the largest number of actual points.

 

75 Active points :

With -1/4 limitation : 60 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 15 points)

With -1/2 limitation : 50 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 10 points)

With -3/4 limitation : 43 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 7 points)

With -1 limitation : 37 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 6 points)

With -1 1/4 limitation : 33 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 4 points)

With -1 1/2 limitation : 30 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 3 points)

With -1 3/4 limitation : 27 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 3 points)

With -2 limitation : 25 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 2 points)

With -2 1/4 limitation : 23 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 2 points)

With -2 1/2 limitation : 21 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 1 point)

With -2 3/4 limitation : 20 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 1 point)

With -3 limitation : 19 real points. (The last 1/4 lim saved 1 point)