Mixed Movement

[Tonio]

Can you combine movement types in a half or full move? By this I mean... If I have 6" running and 6" leaping, can I do 3" running and 3" leaping as a full move? What about 2" running and 1" leaping as a half-move?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Can you combine movement types in a half or full move? By this I mean... If I have 6" running and 6" leaping' date=' can I do 3" running and 3" leaping as a full move? What about 2" running and 1" leaping as a half-move?[/quote']

 

Yes,

 

According to the rules FAQ:

 

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=half+move&dateString=

 

The rules indicate that a character has to move to perform a normal, “running” leap. Does this mean a Half Move? What’s the interplay of Running and Leaping in this situation?

 

As indicated on 5E 21, a character must take “a step or two” to engage in a normal (running) leap. You should just consider that part of the overall distance he moves with his leap; he’s not required to make a Half Move (or move some other defined number of inches) before leaping. In short, there’s no interplay. A character could, of course, make a Half Move with Running and then a Half Move with Leaping, but that would use up his entire Phase.

[Tonio]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Hrm, but a half-move with Running, then a half-move with Leaping isn't the same as a Full Move. For example, consider Move Through, which requires you to make a Full Move, and presumably wouldn't work with "two half moves". Also, that doesn't answer the "mixed half-move" question... could a character, for example, mix Flight and Tunnelling in a half-move?

[archermoo]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Hrm' date=' but a half-move with Running, then a half-move with Leaping isn't the same as a Full Move. For example, consider Move Through, which requires you to make a Full Move, and presumably wouldn't work with "two half moves". Also, that doesn't answer the "mixed half-move" question... could a character, for example, mix Flight and Tunnelling in a half-move?[/quote']

 

A Move Through doesn't REQUIRE that you make a Full Move. It is just a maneuver that CAN be made with a Full Move.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Hrm' date=' but a half-move with Running, then a half-move with Leaping isn't the same as a Full Move. For example, consider Move Through, which requires you to make a Full Move, and presumably wouldn't work with "two half moves". Also, that doesn't answer the "mixed half-move" question... could a character, for example, mix Flight and Tunnelling in a half-move?[/quote']

 

Only one form of movement can be used per half move made.

 

Further down on the same FAQ link:

 

Can a character use two forms of movement in one Phase? If not, why can characters make running leaps?

 

If a character wanted to use two forms of movement in a Phase, he’d have to make a Half Move (defined, as always, as using up to half one’s inches of movement in a Phase) with both, effectively ending his Phase. A “running leap” is just a Leap — making a Leap may involve some running, as discussed by the rules on 5E 21.

 

 

There is no restriction on what forms of movement are combined other than the restrictions built into those movements (like gliding and swimming).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

As far as movement based combat maneuvers like Move By and Move Through I think a common sense approach is all that's required.

 

Teleport is never going to add to damage.

 

I see no reason to limit combinations of the following if there is an appropriate surface available for the last 2:

Flight

Gliding

Running

Leaping

 

Tunneling can be thought of as 'swimming' through earth so both it and Swimming just mean that the character has to start or end in the appropriate environment to use that movement as a half move.

[Tonio]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

A Move Through doesn't REQUIRE that you make a Full Move. It is just a maneuver that CAN be made with a Full Move.

 

Right, but I still can't do two half-moves and a move through.

 

Only one form of movement can be used per half move made.

 

Further down on the same FAQ link:

 

 

 

 

There is no restriction on what forms of movement are combined other than the restrictions built into those movements (like gliding and swimming).

 

Meh, ok... so I can't do one half-move using multiple forms of movements... sux. Would that mean I'd have to be right up to wall if I want to half-Tunnel through it then attack on the other side, since I can't quarter-Run, then quarter-Tunnel through it? Kinda counter-intuitive, I'd think.

[archermoo]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Right, but I still can't do two half-moves and a move through.

 

Yes, in fact you can. You could for instance to a 1/2 move Teleport, wait for the bad guy to show up and then do a flying move through. You would only get to use 1/2 of your flying movement, but you could still do the move through.

[Tonio]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

As far as movement based combat maneuvers like Move By and Move Through I think a common sense approach is all that's required.

 

Teleport is never going to add to damage.

 

I see no reason to limit combinations of the following if there is an appropriate surface available for the last 2:

Flight

Gliding

Running

Leaping

 

Tunneling can be thought of as 'swimming' through earth so both it and Swimming just mean that the character has to start or end in the appropriate environment to use that movement as a half move.

 

Yeah, I was thinking about house-ruling something along those lines.

[Tonio]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Yes' date=' in fact you can. You could for instance to a 1/2 move Teleport, wait for the bad guy to show up and then do a flying move through. You would only get to use 1/2 of your flying movement, but you could still do the move through.[/quote']

 

Dayum... it appears you can! I did not know this. Btw, says here that you probably get the full damage for velocity even if only performing a half-move. I was under the impression that Move Throughs (and By's, and Passing Strikes, etc.) used the inches moved, not the actual velocity... it appears I was wrong.

 

Edit: can't rep you, archermoo... must spread, sorry!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Right, but I still can't do two half-moves and a move through.

 

 

 

Meh, ok... so I can't do one half-move using multiple forms of movements... sux. Would that mean I'd have to be right up to wall if I want to half-Tunnel through it then attack on the other side, since I can't quarter-Run, then quarter-Tunnel through it? Kinda counter-intuitive, I'd think.

 

 

Well I think you may be over-restricting yourself here.

 

 

• My namesake character has 10" of Teleportation and 20" of Flight.
  
• Per standard rules he could make a 5" half move teleport and then a 10" Flight based Move By on a target.
  
• The damage of the Move Through is figured from the FULL velocity of the movement (Flight in this case) which is 20" (at least +4 DC's)
  

If both of the different movements qualify for velocity damage then I would probably average the damage bonus from both. I don't know if the rules deal with that particular situation.

[archermoo]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Dayum... it appears you can! I did not know this. Btw, says here that you probably get the full damage for velocity even if only performing a half-move. I was under the impression that Move Throughs (and By's, and Passing Strikes, etc.) used the inches moved, not the actual velocity... it appears I was wrong.

 

Edit: can't rep you, archermoo... must spread, sorry!

 

NP.

 

That's why the rules for velocity and acceleration are important enough to be in the rules.

[Tonio]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Well I think you may be over-restricting yourself here.

 

 

• My namesake character has 10" of Teleportation and 20" of Flight.
  
• Per standard rules he could make a 5" half move teleport and then a 10" Flight based Move By on a target.
  
• The damage of the Move Through is figured from the FULL velocity of the movement (Flight in this case) which is 20" (at least +4 DC's)
  

If both of the different movements qualify for velocity damage then I would probably average the damage bonus from both. I don't know if the rules deal with that particular situation.

 

Actually, on the Running+Tunnelling example, I wasn't referring to a velocity-based damage maneuver, but, say, a regular Strike. I can half-Run, then Strike, or I can half-Tunnel, then Strike, but I can't quarter-Run, quarter-Tunnel, then Strike, which would be needed to move 1" or 2" to a 1/2" wall, then Tunnel through it, then Strike at someone on the other side.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Actually' date=' on the Running+Tunnelling example, I wasn't referring to a velocity-based damage maneuver, but, say, a regular Strike. I can half-Run, then Strike, or I can half-Tunnel, then Strike, but I can't quarter-Run, quarter-Tunnel, then Strike, which would be needed to move 1" or 2" to a 1/2" wall, then Tunnel through it, then Strike at someone on the other side.[/quote']

 

If the target is touching or standing on the material that the character is Tunneling through then a Move By or Move Through is actually more appropriate than a Strike. The character half-Runs then dives into the earth and pops out under the target with a Move Through from below. A pretty devastating Suprise maneuver in the right situation.

[Tonio]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

If the target is touching or standing on the material that the character is Tunneling through then a Move By or Move Through is actually more appropriate than a Strike. The character half-Runs then dives into the earth and pops out under the target with a Move Through from below. A pretty devastating Suprise maneuver in the right situation.

 

Well, yeah, given the appropriate situation... but consider a translucent wall (to allow PERceiving both it and the target), 1 meter thick (i.e. half a game inch), 4 meters (i.e. 2 game inches) away from the character, and a target, say, 10 game inches away from the wall, in the other direction. The character wants to Tunnel through the wall and shoot the target with his blaster. Strictly speaking, he can't, since he can't Tunnel through air, and can't Run through the wall, and can't shoot after doing two half-moves. I'd think it logical and balanced that the character could Run 2" to the wall, Tunnel 1" through it, then shoot, given that he has at least 8" Running and 4" Tunnelling.

[archermoo]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Well' date=' yeah, given the appropriate situation... but consider a translucent wall (to allow PERceiving both it and the target), 1 meter thick (i.e. half a game inch), 4 meters (i.e. 2 game inches) away from the character, and a target, say, 10 game inches away from the wall, in the other direction. The character wants to Tunnel through the wall and shoot the target with his blaster. Strictly speaking, he can't, since he can't Tunnel through air, and can't Run through the wall, and can't shoot after doing two half-moves. I'd think it logical and balanced that the character could Run 2" to the wall, Tunnel 1" through it, then shoot, given that he has at least 8" Running and 4" Tunnelling.[/quote']

 

If you feel that it is reasonable to allow in your games, by all means allow it. That is why Steve peppers the rules with "common and dramatic sense" phrases. If you aren't running the game, feel free to try and convince the Ref to allow it. Personally I'm pretty happy with the rules as they are. I dislike the idea of getting into 1/4 moves.

[Tonio]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

If you feel that it is reasonable to allow in your games' date=' by all means allow it. That is why Steve peppers the rules with "common and dramatic sense" phrases. If you aren't running the game, feel free to try and convince the Ref to allow it. Personally I'm pretty happy with the rules as they are. I dislike the idea of getting into 1/4 moves.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I was thinking quarter-moves could get iffy. It works fine if all the modes of movement involved can move the same length. Then a half-move could involve any number of modes, as long as the total movement wasn't longer than half that length. (For example, if you have 10" each of Running, Flight, Tunnelling, and Leaping, you could do 1" Flying, followed by 1" Running, 1" Tunnelling, then 2" Leaping as a half-move, having moved a total of 5". Which you might have to, if at the beginning of your Phase you're 2m away from a ledge, and 2m from the ledge is a 2m wall with a 3m pit right next to it, hehehe!)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Well' date=' yeah, given the appropriate situation... but consider a translucent wall (to allow PERceiving both it and the target), 1 meter thick (i.e. half a game inch), 4 meters (i.e. 2 game inches) away from the character, and a target, say, 10 game inches away from the wall, in the other direction. The character wants to Tunnel through the wall and shoot the target with his blaster. Strictly speaking, he can't, since he can't Tunnel through air, and can't Run through the wall, and can't shoot after doing two half-moves. I'd think it logical and balanced that the character could Run 2" to the wall, Tunnel 1" through it, then shoot, given that he has at least 8" Running and 4" Tunnelling.[/quote']

 

That's very much a corner case. I'd allow it, myself. Given that it's... uhh... call it "casual movement", and it's essentially half a half-move for each movement mode.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

If you feel that it is reasonable to allow in your games' date=' by all means allow it. That is why Steve peppers the rules with "common and dramatic sense" phrases. If you aren't running the game, feel free to try and convince the Ref to allow it. Personally I'm pretty happy with the rules as they are. I dislike the idea of getting into 1/4 moves.[/quote']

 

I agree.

 

The example situation makes no mention of special effect.

 

How does the character 'tunnel'?

Is it a form of 'wall smashing' Superman style?

How tough is the wall in question?

 

Have you considered letting the character make a half move Move Through vs. the wall and then adapt the rule for breaking out of Entangles and Grabs?

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter Two

page 423

 

Breaking Out Of Entangles And Grabs

If a character who’s trying to break out of an Entangle (which doesn’t require an Attack Roll) does twice the remaining BODY of the Entangle or more, he’s free and has a Full Phase in which to act (i.e., it takes no time at all to break out of the Entangle). If an attack against an Entangle does the remaining BODY of the Entangle or more (but less than twice the remaining BODY), the character is free and may perform a Half Phase Action.

 

Call it an attempt at a 'casual move through' or something similar.

[Tonio]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

I agree.

 

The example situation makes no mention of special effect.

 

How does the character 'tunnel'?

Is it a form of 'wall smashing' Superman style?

How tough is the wall in question?

 

Assume appropriate SFX.

 

Have you considered letting the character make a half move Move Through vs. the wall and then adapt the rule for breaking out of Entangles and Grabs?

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter Two

page 423

 

 

 

Call it an attempt at a 'casual move through' or something similar.

 

I had not considered that. It'd work for Tunnelling, but not as a general rule involving multiple modes of movement. Which might not be a bad thing... the issue could be complicated and infrequent enough not to warrant a general rule, but rather a case-by-case GM adjudication, taking into account he usual suspects (SFX, situation, dramatic sense, etc.).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Well, yeah, given the appropriate situation... but consider a translucent wall (to allow PERceiving both it and the target), 1 meter thick (i.e. half a game inch), 4 meters (i.e. 2 game inches) away from the character, and a target, say, 10 game inches away from the wall, in the other direction. The character wants to Tunnel through the wall and shoot the target with his blaster. Strictly speaking, he can't, since he can't Tunnel through air, and can't Run through the wall, and can't shoot after doing two half-moves. I'd think it logical and balanced that the character could Run 2" to the wall, Tunnel 1" through it, then shoot, given that he has at least 8" Running and 4" Tunnelling.

 

S'right. You can't run/tunnel/run as that involves two switches of movement. Personally I cannot really see the problem with allowing you to do this, so I probably would*.

 

I'd probably rule that the running distance in total could not exceed a half move run and the tunelling distance in total could not exceed a half move tunnel, i.e. I would not pro-rate it as that is too complicated on the fly, but so long as you are using no more than half move totals, I can't really see the problem with allowing you to switch back and forth. I might require a Power Skill roll.

 

I probably would not allow you to use more than 2 movement modes in a single move, simply because it gets a bit comlpicated to administer and I do not want to really encourage that sort of thing, but I might as a one off, and I'd definitely require a Power Skill roll.

 

 

 

*Allow it, that is.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

After thinking about this topic some more it occurred to me that the real issue boils down to determining how many distinct actions can a character make during a single Phase.

 

What happens in our previous examples if we replace multiple movement abilities with a single Flight power with the Variable Advantage?

 

Now the Flight can be used as ANY form of movement (it's just not additive to any other form of the same movement the character may already have). Can the character switch movement types mid-phase? Is the character still Flying when using the power to Swim (that is, is it a switch or an addition to the base movement ability)?

 

Let's take a more real world example like the wheeled amphibious vehicles used by the US Marines. When they transition between land and water they used 2 distinct methods to apply power to get forward movement (wheels vs. screws/propellers). It seems reasonable to think that if they were moving fast enough in either mode (water or land) going towards the opposite environment that they could carry over some of the momentum before actually engaging the power for that new environment.

 

Similarly, do dolphins just have Swimming or do they have Leaping (for getting over those sharks ) as well?

 

HERO rules are probably never going to be able to get this detailed.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Can you combine movement types in a half or full move? By this I mean... If I have 6" running and 6" leaping' date=' can I do 3" running and 3" leaping as a full move? What about 2" running and 1" leaping as a half-move?[/quote']

 

Yes. Also, it is useful to get used to thinking in terms of Half-moves.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Mixed Movement

 

Guys, you're forgetting about a nifty little advantage called Useable As Second Mode Of Movement(+1/4):

 

62 Tunneling 10"/10 DEF - Useable As Running(+1/4)

 

With this you can Run 3" and Tunnel 2" though a 10 DEF wall as a Half-Move. Or some other combination that adds up to half or less of the 10". There is no limit to the number of times within a single move that the power can "switch" between Running and Tunneling.