Limiting Combat Levels

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

You and I may have disagreed on this before. I happen to be a big fan of Overall Skill Levels. I like to play jack-of-all trades characters and Overall Skill Levels make that a viable option. I just do not understand why people are so against them. 10 points is pretty cost restrictive in and of itself.

 

Now, from a purely min/max point of view, 6 skills and 6 Overall Skill Levels is just a waste. To me, you really need more skills to justify the points.

 

Note: "I said they had a ton of skills . . ."

 

And I agree - I love Overall Skill Levels, they do a great job at creating some very good Jack-Of-All-Trades and Hyper-Competent Characters. They are perfect, IMO for high powered Heroic and almost any Super-Heroic game.

 

I just don't think they're appropriate for Standard Heroic levels. In all my experience they break the game by allowing the Character with them to break niche and be competent in all the areas the specialized characters are, almost at once. To me that's damaging to the campaign.

[jtelson]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Personaly' date=' My problem with 10 point skill levels is the effect on things I do not consider appropriate, namely characteristic and PER rolls, amazing how I disallow those two things and I am happy with 10 point skill levels in general. Basicaly I let them apply to skills (that the character has spent atleast 3 points on) and CSL's, works good...[/quote']

 

I can understand not allowing them for Char rolls and PER rolls (which is also a Char roll), and obviously not with familiarities, but why not on Knowledge/Proffesional/Science Skills, Forgery, Gambling, Survival, Weaponsmith, etc?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

EDIT: I was writing my reply when you guys offered the skill suggestions. Thanks I think that is what I will turn him towards...

 

Drop 5 of the overalls and replace with 2 HTH 5 pointers. (3 total)

He was a soldier for a short time but deserted: Familiarity with CuK Hallowdane Military Life/Hallowdane Military insignia 1pt.

He spent a long time in Fallengate Prison: CuK Prison Life 2pts. / AK Fallengate Prison 2pts.

He is an armorsmith so I will sell him on weaponsmith as well: Weaponsmith +1 5pts.

It would do well to know how to smelt his own metals as a smith (A stretch but what the hell) Smelting KS Metallurgy 4 pts.

 

And a few others that go with his character concept;

Tactics +1 5 pts.

Gambling +1 (He'll like that one) 5 pts.

Tracking (another stretch) 3pts.

And if he goes for the tracking skill, I will explain he couldn't have learned tracking without becoming very familiar with his home region: AK: Hallowdane environs +3 4pts. (+1 AK Hallowdane environ everyman familiarity skill for a total of 5 pts.)

 

This should make him feel more rounded without changing the character too much.

Just make sure that if he goes for this suggestion that you reward him by having some of these new Skills useful in early scenarios. Nothing makes a player's eyes light up faster than having some Skill only their character bought come in useful. As a GM, I actively look for those Skills.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I'm not trying to change the player or force him to 'grow'. He's happy the way he plays and I don't think I have the right to tell him his gaming happiness is wrong.

 

All I want to do is apply a house rule that limits the amount of CV/Levels a player can have at the beginning of the game and provide a structured rate at which CV/Levels can be gained. If he satisfies that limitation and is still two dimensional and shallow, so be it. I am sure he will enjoy it.

 

I don't think your first and second paragraphs are at all consistent. You do want to change the way he is building his character and your references to "two dimensional and shallow" imply a negative. To me, this player's characters far from "two dimensional and shallow" - he is taking disadvantages to build a character with a well-rounded personality. The fact that the character is not a jack of all trades, but is focused on only a very few areas, doesn't make the character "two dimensional and shallow" , at least in my eyes. It also gives him limitations - things he can't do.

 

I find campaigns which force all characters to be more or less the same to be somewhat "two dimensional and shallow". "Max 3 levels" easily becomes "all starting characters have 3 levels". "Max 2 more per 50 points" quickly becomes "evertyone has 2 more per 50 points". The only way I buy in to maxima is if the sum of all the maxima would require considerably more than the points available.

 

I do like the idea of combat levels rather than overall levels, as the description doesn't scream out that he's stellar with his skills. It would also be helpful to know the other character builds. It seems to me that the others have much more breadth, and this character is more focused. If he's focused on physical combat, he should be better at it.

 

He was a soldier for a short time but deserted: Familiarity with CuK Hallowdane Military Life/Hallowdane Military insignia 1pt.

He spent a long time in Fallengate Prison: CuK Prison Life 2pts. / AK Fallengate Prison 2pts.

He is an armorsmith so I will sell him on weaponsmith as well: Weaponsmith +1 5pts.

It would do well to know how to smelt his own metals as a smith (A stretch but what the hell) Smelting KS Metallurgy 4 pts.

 

And a few others that go with his character concept;

Tactics +1 5 pts.

Gambling +1 (He'll like that one) 5 pts.

Tracking (another stretch) 3pts.

And if he goes for the tracking skill, I will explain he couldn't have learned tracking without becoming very familiar with his home region: AK: Hallowdane environs +3 4pts. (+1 AK Hallowdane environ everyman familiarity skill for a total of 5 pts.)

 

As Treb notes, it's important you make these skills important. The player will certainly see times that those overall levels would have come in very handy. If he drops 4 points on prison-based skills, for example, then there should be games where those skills are useful.

[phookz]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I did like your idea for the strength and combat luck tied to the berserk status but as much as he looks like a barbarian he envisioned the berserk as a curse and not an asset. He imagines a fallen soldier (hence no thief/stelath skills despite the time in prison) than a barbarian or criminal. His embrace of the disadvantages was actually more than anyone else in the group which I give him all due credit for. Not everyone can see the fun in those right off.

 

Since he's a former soldier, you might consider PS: Soldier as well. There are also a lot of knowledge skills that would make sense, depending on how long he had campaigned as a soldier (Siegecraft, area knowledges, etc.).

 

Since he's a former soldier, you might also consider the following:

PS: Soldier

KS: Heraldry

KS: Seigecraft

Tactics

 

You might even consider a 8- with Bureaucratics, depending on long he was a soldier and how large and (dis)organized the army he served with was.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

How about this for an idea? Create a very low CSL cap (let's say a maximum of 2 CSLs total).

 

Create these perks:

 

Veteran-Level Experience (3 points): provides access to +3 more CSLs above the campaign's cap/limit.

 

Expert-Level Experience (7 points): same as Veteran-Level Experience; must first have the Veteran-Level Experience perk.

Master-level Experience (10 points): provides access to +5 more CSLs above the campaign's cap/limit; must first have the Expert-Level Experience perk.

 

Professional Training (3 points): provides access to +3 more CSLs above the campaign's cap/limit.

 

Advanced Training (7 points): same as Professional Training; must first have the Professional Training perk.

 

Trained by a Master (10 points): provides access to +5 more CSLs above the campaign's cap/limit; must first have the Advanced Training perk and/or may require a quest to find a martial arts master willing to train the character.

 

Further levels of Mastery in experience or training cost (previous level's cost) + 5 points and provide access to +5 more CSLs. They would of course have a prerequisite of the previous level of Mastery in experience or training and may require another quest.

 

These perks would not pay for the CSLs themselves, only the opportunity to buy more CSLs above the campaign's limit.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Then again, I think I like Killer Shrike's method of limiting CSLs by total character points. It "leads" players to spend character points on other things besides combat.

[Robot_Nixon]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

So we just finished our first game tonight and everyone had a great time. Most of the game was letting them get a feel for their starting village. They spent most of the night talking to the villagers and role playing various activities. Orlo's player surprised everyone by performing our first presence attack versus a man who was trying to cheat him in a card game that was being held at the local tavern.

 

He used his gambling skill to detect the cheat and then did a PRE attack by cutting the cards the man was holding in half and saying, "Friend, I don't think those cards came from our deck. Show me what else you have up your sleeve or the next thing I cut in half will be your neck!" so I gave him an additional 4D6 on his presence attack. Orlo did a fast draw and surprised the cheater, made a violent action and a good soliloquy, and the rough frontier tavern and Orlo's reputation as reckless gave him one more from appropriate setting. He rolled well and beat the cheater's PRE of 8 by 21. So I had the cheater give up and give the money back and slink out of the tavern. I'm thinking I might have him come up again seeking revenge.

 

The attack on the cards was OCV 8 (6 + 2 HTH, he was using his OL in Gambling) vs DCV of 8 but was -2 for being drunk and halfed for surprise. I thought about making them 0 DCV because of Orlo's swift attack, and the cheater was seated, but I figure the cheater would have had some reflexive response. I made the cards a called shot at -6 (same as a hand) Which ended up being a 2 OCV vs a 3 DCV but he rolled a 7 making the cut. He easily beat the liberal 1 Body I gave the cards.

 

The group got into a bit of combat at the end of the night after tracking some goblins that had been stealing pigs from a local farmer. They were all pretty awed with combat. I use bleeding, wounding, hit location, impairment and disabled rules so when they chopped off one of the goblin's arms and it wasn't just 'combat color commentary' like D&D, but actually built into the game, they were pretty impressed. Needless to say when Orlo chopped off the head of the last goblin, they spent the last 15 minutes of the game talking about combat.

 

I'd hate to tell them they haven't even started on the main quest!

 

After I told him that new characters could only have 3 total levels, and that no character could have more than one overall level per full 100 points they have he modified his character with some suggestions I gave him from this thread.

 

Here's the final build he went with...

 

Player: Orlo Blackhand

 

Val Char Cost

18 STR 8

18 DEX 24

18 CON 16

13 BODY 6

10 INT 0

13 EGO 6

15 PRE 5

8 COM -1

 

4 PD 0

4 ED 0

3 SPD 2

8 REC 0

36 END 0

31 STUN 0

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

3 1/2" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 66

 

 

 

Cost Skill

5 Armorsmith 14-

5 Climbing 14-

5 Fast Draw 14-

5 Gambling 12-

4 Navigation (Land) 12-

3 Riding (Camel) 13-

3 Streetwise 12-

4 Survival (Desert) 12-

5 Tactics 12-

5 Tracking 12-

5 Weaponsmith 12-

5 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, Flails

10 +2 with HTH Combat

10 +1 Overall

5 KS: Metallurgy (Smelting) 13-

2 Hallowdane: The Keening Desert AK: The Keening Desert 11-

1 Hallowdane Military Insignia CuK: Hallowdane Heraldry 8-

1 Hallowdane Soldiery PS: Soldier 8-

1 Imprisoned in Fallgate CuK: Prison Life 8-

Skills Cost: 84

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 150

 

Pts. Disadvantage

20 Berserker: (Uncommon), go 8-, recover 11-, Berserk

10 Reputation: Reckless and Unreliable, 11-

10 Psychological Limitation: Alcoholic (Common, Moderate)

15 Psychological Limitation: Will not harm a child (Uncommon, Total)

10 Mark of the Honorless: Forehead is branded with the sign of someone that has deserted military service and been imprisoned for that crime. (Easily Concealed; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

5 Distinctive Features: Facial scars (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

5 Money: Poor

Disadvantage Points: 75

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

For the record his Everyman skills are

 

Acting

Concealment

Conversation

Deduction

Healing

Persuasion

Shadowing

Stealth

Native Language: Mercadian (Illiterate/Native Accent 4 pts)

[Mr. R]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Nice to see it worked out and that your friend was willing to modify his character to fill it out and make your job easier.

[Eosin]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Looks good. Now, here is a toast to having some fun games!

[phookz]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Sounds like a good time was had by all. One thing I love about HERO is the rules for Presence attacks. Sure you could just hand wave it, but it's nice to have some rules in place to pull off that type of stuff. Oh, and the cheater just has to come back as a minor villain or something - that's too good an opportunity to pass up

[JmOz]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

I can understand not allowing them for Char rolls and PER rolls (which is also a Char roll)' date=' and obviously not with familiarities, but why not on Knowledge/Proffesional/Science Skills, Forgery, Gambling, Survival, Weaponsmith, etc?[/quote']

 

Umm, I do allow them on all of those things you listed (Starting at KS/PS/SS)

[jtelson]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Umm' date=' I do allow them on all of those things you listed (Starting at KS/PS/SS)[/quote']

 

Sorry, you said skills they spent 3 points on, all of those start at 2.

[JmOz]

Re: Limiting Combat Levels

 

Sorry' date=' you said skills they spent 3 points on, all of those start at 2.[/quote']

 

ohh, umm, ok (my mistake)...I was refering to full skills, Had not thought about that...