When the Nobility gets Out of Hand

[Michael Hopcroft]

In some medieval worlds, there is a ruling noble class and a massive peasant underclass who are little more than slaves. This has enormous potential for social abuse, as the American experience with slavery demonstrates.

 

If the local lord begins to abuse his priveleges by doing things like killing peasantry at random, claiming the first night with the new bride of every single marriage in his manor, or making serfs fight to the death for his sport, what can the peasantry do to bring him back in line? Historically, peasant revolts always failed (but occurred frequently) because the rebels had much poorer training and equipment than their opponents. But if some peasants knew a little "hedge magic" and craft skills to make good weapons (and disguise them as something else), maybe this could give them enough of an advantage that they stand a figthing chance.

 

Of course, the best policy after defeating a manorial lord is to flee to another kingdom ahead of the royal army that is certain to be headed your way....

[OddHat]

Magic potentially changes everythng, even if most faux-middle ages fantasy refuses to aknowledge that. In a standard high fantasy setting the gods are real, and any peasant has a chance of being born with potential access to a form of magic that requires almost no formal training. How long is an abusive lord going to last when any low born wretch can use two or three minor spells and a sharp knife to end his tyrany? Yes, he'll have magical protection of his own, but will his hired mage sleep before his door at night? Remember also that the educated classes came out of the merchant classes, not the nobility. How long is that mage (grandson of a tavern keeper) going to put up with being called a filthy peasant before he kills the lord himself?

 

You can tweak the setting as much as you like to prevent the above scenarios, but the fact is the main advatages that the nobility had were always tradition, force of arms and wealth. In a world with magic force of arms and wealth become far more difficult to keep under the control of a hereditary nobility (unless they're also the only magicians), and tradition takes on a new meaning when the gods are real and active and regularly directly instructing their miracla working priests.

 

Anyway, rant over. I'd say that in a high fantasy world power would mainly lie with the churches, and then with any organized groups of mages. The nobles would be a distant third, especially if they had to really believe to become successful priests and to be genuinely bright and talented to be successful mages. Your setting may of course vary.

[Hermit]

a few thoughts

 

Another big check on Nobility is...

other Nobility.

 

If the Evil Count Jerkula is loathed and hated by his people because he treats them cruelly; then the Earl of Guile may sense an oppurtunity. After all, a large part of armies in the medievel world is the conscrpted lower classes, who's morale is weak at the best of times. Jerkula's people aren't going to want to fight for him. They'll welcome a new lord. The Count is going to be using his main men and merceneries against the Earl's knights, soldiers, serfs, and maybe his own people!

 

Now, the Earl of Guile will likely claim that this was for honour, or chivarly, or because he could damp out the cries of the people no longer... maybe he even means it, or maybe it's spin to get the silent approval of the church and the very vocal approval of others. Of course, once he gets what he wants, the Earl of Guile can become just as big a tyrant. However, it wouldn't be reccomended. Not when he can get all the kudos, gratitude, and what he wanted anyways by a nobler seeming.

 

If this is successful even once, the other nobles who were being rotten may decide to ease up on their own peasants, a little. Not because they've 'seen the light' but they don't want to give guys like the Earl of Guile another target.

 

Lording above this all, is presumably a King who probably wants to keep the lower nobility scuffling at each other anyways... it helps keep them from plotting against him.

[Guest Worldmaker]

In my Young Kingdoms setting, the only places which have this sort of nobility are places like Soravia, where all nobles are mages and all mages elevated to the nobility (and thus they have a stake in preserving the status quo) and the free city Czern, where the Prince of the City is a thousand year old vampire.

[Storn]

I put forth to you that Peasent revolts didn't fail as much as 21st Century POV think they did.

 

You are right, certanely the Lord of the Manor wasn't overthrown. But in a feudal society, those serfs were the ones who made the money go 'round. Disrupt that economic base... and all of a sudden, the Lord of the Manor is broke. And the Count or King above him is getting pissed.

 

So, what often happened is; Peasents revolt, Kings' men would show up, put down the revolt and tell the Lord of the Manor to stop sleeping with all the brides or killing randomnly... or he will be found treasonous and have an appointement with a headsman's axe.

 

Local laws of France and England (based upon "Life in a Castle" which is a dry but interesting read) were extremely sophisticated. It was not a lawless time at all. The accounting of land and money was almost hyper. So even losing one laborer in the fields would be accounted for.

 

Historians often paint the Middle and Dark ages as well, dark. I think the truth of the matter is much more complicated. I've heard historians say that the Peasent never traveled 10 miles from his house all of his life. Proabably true... for some. But now there is considerable evidence of marriages across counties, mercantilism even before the emerging middle class of the Reneissance that traveled ALL OVER Europe and beyond... even to china's silk road... I"m talking 800 here... way before Polo.

 

Did you know that Sarajevo was a democratic city-state in the dark ages, that had Merchant Guilds and freedom of religion? Again, 700+... way, way before what we think of a middle class emerging. When we look to western History to guide us in a Fantasy game... sometimes the preconceptions being blown apart by new evidence and scholarship can generate even better Fantasy Game ideas.

 

In this country (US), my childhood friend is an archeologist working Iroquios sites in NY state, just miles from where we grew up. One site is around 1650. Yet uncovered are stone beads that could have only come from Baja California and a tribe who made them there. Someone carried those beads from the west coast to the east coast... and the American continent is considerably larger than the European one.

 

Just some things to mull over. And lastly; Its your campaign. If you want your serfs in County Y to be treated like the jewish serfs in pogroms of Russia... that is your call.

[Markdoc]

Storn is right: the idea of medieval Europe as a closed, primitive society is outdated - the kind of things these days relegated to "popular nonfiction" by writers not prepared to do much research.

 

Not that it matters: most Fantasy worlds don't have that much to do with real life. How the misbehaving noble gets treated, depends on where he is. In my game world, I worked on the principle that people with power like to accumulate more power, so peasant revolts are pretty unlikely: a mass of peasants armed with hedge magic, and improvised weapons are not going to go far against one champion in magic armour with a sword that can slice iron like butter, riding an enchanted steed of bronze that can breathe fire... Perhaps they can find a romantic champion to aid their cause - player characters often do that sort of thing.

 

Still, in my game, a misbehaving noble in Saharn is likely to get a visit from the Nightguard of the Temple of the Great God and end up being unpleasantly dismembered (or charged with Heresy, which essentially means the same thing). At the other end of the scale, Keshite nobles can and do indulge in every sort of vice imaginable (and they have people whose job is to think these things up!) and no-one will interfere.

 

It's all in the context. If magic is easily acquired, then the social scale might be quite flexible. If it requires decades of expensive study, then it could be even more inflexible than real life.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Korvar]

My current problem is trying to work out how a society works where the ruler is so powerful that even if every single person in his city rose against him at once, he'd hardly break a sweat. That skews things a bit.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Korvar

My current problem is trying to work out how a society works where the ruler is so powerful that even if every single person in his city rose against him at once, he'd hardly break a sweat. That skews things a bit.

 

Hmm, if you mix that with the immortality or long life somehow (ANother therad covering that I believe) you have a veritible religion ready to form up in the area.

 

If you'll forgive the super hero reference in the fantasy section, I'm reminded of Superman:tAS

"I am many things Superman. Here, I am God." -Darkseid

[Korvar]

Originally posted by Hermit

Hmm, if you mix that with the immortality or long life somehow (ANother therad covering that I believe) you have a veritible religion ready to form up in the area.

 

Yeah, well, this is based on Dark Sun, the bestest D&D setting ever. And these guys - the Sorcerer Kings - pretty much are Gods. Their beaurocracy/police force get spells from them the same way Clerics get spells from their deities.

 

Oh, yes, and they are immortal

[Michael Hopcroft]

Speaking of peasant revolts.....

 

What kind of farm tools frequently seen in fantasy worlds can be used as weapons? How difficult would it be tolearn to ifght with them as opposed to cutting down and threshing wheat?

 

The insights into the medival world are interesting. I can't help but wonder what magic would do to the medival requation. If there's enough magic going around like priests blessing crops (to protect against disease and ensure a good harvest), healing spells available to anyone when they get injured or sick, magically skilled midwivesto ease the pangs of childbirth.... You get the idea. peasant life might be a lot less nasty, a lot less brutish, and a lot less short unless the local lords were REALLY cruel and tried to deprive the populace of these benefits.

[Hermit]

Speaking of magic and mystical nature:

What of Divine Right?

A book, "Her Majesty's Wizard" by Stashef I believe, describes a wonderfully simplistic world. Knights command respect simply by being knights; the Queen is infallible in her judgement of matters of State, Heaven and Hell are quite close depending on your heart and actions, and so on.

 

Even in a world with dozens of dieties, if a king has the favor of the gods as his basis for rule, it surely changes things. People won't want to mess with him else they earn some overpower's wrath in this life or the next. The King, on the other hand, must comport himself as his patron insists, or else lose the divine right. In a fantasy setting, Divine Right can be very real and double edged.

 

"The King and the land are one" is a classic Arthurian tid bit. An NPC king might sense something wrong, or experience a "feeling" or even be plauged by visions when troubles abound in his kingdom. This is epic fantasy, and obviously wouldn't work for all (or even most) campaigns, but it's certainly doable.

[OddHat]

Re: Speaking of peasant revolts.....

 

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

What kind of farm tools frequently seen in fantasy worlds can be used as weapons? How difficult would it be tolearn to ifght with them as opposed to cutting down and threshing wheat?

 

Many of them, and peasants use them all day, every day; they already know how to aim, swing, chop, and cut with their tools; learning how to kill isn't much of a stretch. If they regularly butcher animals they know how to do that too. Axe, hatchet, sledge hammer, the standard scythe (not the huge thing you see in pictures of Death), flensing kinfe; there are all kinds of sharp and/or pointy things lying around on a working farm.

 

Utterly destitute peasants are also an option, just not that historically acurate in most of the west for the bulk of the middle ages. Even Russian serfs had axes. On the other hand, Hero is simulating Heroic Fiction...

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Hermit

Speaking of magic and mystical nature:

What of Divine Right?

A book, "Her Majesty's Wizard" by Stashef I believe, describes a wonderfully simplistic world. Knights command respect simply by being knights; the Queen is infallible in her judgement of matters of State, Heaven and Hell are quite close depending on your heart and actions, and so on.

 

Good series.

 

Originally posted by Hermit

Even in a world with dozens of dieties, if a king has the favor of the gods as his basis for rule, it surely changes things. People won't want to mess with him else they earn some overpower's wrath in this life or the next. The King, on the other hand, must comport himself as his patron insists, or else lose the divine right. In a fantasy setting, Divine Right can be very real and double edged.

 

Fun point here. An interventionist God (or gods) should make a huge difference in the way priests and nobles behave. Real history may have been full of corupt churchmen and oathbreaking nobles, but then they could always count on a God who at best wasn't going to get involved until after they died. Build a world where gods do drop by for a chat with misbehaving priests, or even better where every sin is punished by a lightning bolt, and you change the way people behave quite a bit.

 

Originally posted by Hermit

"The King and the land are one" is a classic Arthurian tid bit. An NPC king might sense something wrong, or experience a "feeling" or even be plauged by visions when troubles abound in his kingdom. This is epic fantasy, and obviously wouldn't work for all (or even most) campaigns, but it's certainly doable.

 

Terry Pratchett has done some nice stuff with this idea, especially in Weird Sisters.

 

OK, so I'm the only one who likes to base his fantasy campaigns on Discworld...

[Korvar]

Re: Re: Speaking of peasant revolts.....

 

Originally posted by OddHat

Many of them, and peasants use them all day, every day; they already know how to aim, swing, chop, and cut with their tools; learning how to kill isn't much of a stretch.

 

Also, many polearm weapons are actually derived from the peasant-tool-on-a-stick school of weaponsmithing. They'd get a pick, a hammer, a scythe, or an axe and tie it to a long pole so they could get at the guys on horseback.

[Catseye]

Originally posted by Korvar

Yeah, well, this is based on Dark Sun, the bestest D&D setting ever. And these guys - the Sorcerer Kings - pretty much are Gods.]

 

Well, as co-designer of Dark Sun Online II:The Age of Heroes (a project sadly never completed) let me give you a few of the ways we balanced things:

 

(1) Sorcerer Kings are ultimately competitors. And totally self-centered, so they act as checks on each other pretty well. Noone wants any other one to get too more powerful then they are. With that to worry about, you don't need the hassles of a peasantry in active revolt too. Any weakness will be lept on by your 'fellows'.

 

(2) Remember that Dark Sun is fundamentally an eco-fable. Sorcerer Kings are Defilers. The Druids and their preserver allies represent an important counter-power trying to return the world to a natural state, which means limiting and eventually eliminating the defilers.

As the representatives of the fundamental forces of the world, what could be considered "true gods', they are a real danger to the SKs.