Mindscaping

[Sean Waters]

So, what I'm after is a power that allows you to fool telepaths - not just not be read - that's easy - but to be read wrong. So, for instance, TeleLass mind reads me and discovers that, despite her suspicions, I am not staring at her breasts, I'm just cogitating on the state of the human condition and I just happen to have my eyes pointing in that direction, so she becomes all embarassed and tries to make it up to me.

 

The next week she reads my mind again, only to discover, despite what she had thought was overwhelming evidence, that I am not seeing ElastiLass behind her back.

 

I'm thinking either images or shapeshift (against mental group), but does anyone have another cunning plan?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mindscaping

 

Mindscaping: Shape Shift (Mental Group), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (10 Active Points)

 

Boy, that's cheap...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Mindscaping

 

Well, it's way TOO expensive for the effect, but how about ...

 

Deceptive Thoughts: Mental Illusions, Damage Shield, only to create 'false surface thoughts'?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mindscaping

 

The Mental Illusions Damage Shield is one I'd be inclined toward, but I'm thinking this could actually also be an application of a skill such as Disguise or Acting as well.

 

Remember that the skills aren't necessarily sense-limited. One of the more common examples we run into is Stealth, but there's no reason not to extrapolate. So I'd be tempted to also try out buying the character some (possibly limited) Mental Awareness, and a (possibly limited) skill like one of those mentioned above (possibly bought as a Power). That also adds some contest to the thing rather than it being an absolute, which I personally think would make game play more interesting.

 

Of course, you might want to also ask that the character have some ability that could conceivably be used to apply the skill in this case. Maybe the Mental Awareness would be sufficient (part of the reason I mentioned it above), but other candidates might be Mental Illusions, KS: Structure of Human Thought, SS: Psychology, the Resistance talent, etc.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mindscaping

 

I'm not surprised that a prestidigitator would suggest deceptive Skills.

 

I saw a published HERO 4E with this kind of effect built as Mental Defense with Invisible Power Effects. If the inquisitive mentalist didn't overcome the MD, he would see the kind of thoughts the character with the Defense wanted him to see, without realizing he'd been blocked. An "Only Vs. Telepathy" Lim will bring the cost down greatly.

 

If that seems like too much flexibility for Mental Defense, how about slapping Variable Special Effects on it, to allow the character to vary the "appearance" of his thoughts?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mindscaping

 

Ooh. Another good possibility. This may change from a, "How do I do this," into a, "How can I possibly choose from all these options?"

[lensman]

Re: Mindscaping

 

So, what I'm after is a power that allows you to fool telepaths - not just not be read - that's easy - but to be read wrong. So, for instance, TeleLass mind reads me and discovers that, despite her suspicions, I am not staring at her breasts, I'm just cogitating on the state of the human condition and I just happen to have my eyes pointing in that direction, so she becomes all embarassed and tries to make it up to me.

 

The next week she reads my mind again, only to discover, despite what she had thought was overwhelming evidence, that I am not seeing ElastiLass behind her back.

 

I'm thinking either images or shapeshift (against mental group), but does anyone have another cunning plan?

 

As I see it, your choice of machanic is really the choice between an absolute and a stepped power. Take Shapeshift, clearly an absolute power. No way to overcome a minus to PER or other skill. It simply works, and is oddly inexpensive; 10 pts. for targeting + 10 pts. for Limited number of shapes.

 

A stepped Power being Images. 10 pts. for targeting + 9 pts. for -3 to PER roll (3 pts for each -1.)

 

Well here are the general choices:

 

Mental Images: I use this power in my Gamma Hero game for an effect close to this one. In a Heroic game I favor Imaages for all sorts of things Plys it has some inherent limitations that make th eeffects affordable for the benefit you want.

 

ShapeShift (Mental Group): This power I submit is better for broad application not specific. I have used this for Psionics who have wanted their minds to appear as other than their class. So a Mammalian mind appears as Reptilian or Insectoid, also it has been used as a Mimic power within a class of mind so that one's Mental signature appears as another, say for identification by a sentient lock. But for use as setting up a specific thought chain that hides or covers another, does not seem to fit the bill IMO.

 

Mental Illusions, Damage Shield: As mentioned grossly expensive and a very clunky mechanc to apply. Dice rolled, compare to MI effect table, decidde which level, then Breakout happens on time every step of Time chart. Breakout is inevitable, then what?

Really a short term power.

 

Mental Awareness (possibly limited) , and a (possibly limited) skill

Mental Illusions, KS: Structure of Human Thought, SS: Psychology, the Resistance talent, etc.

I like this idea for a Heroic game. For skiled guys trying to coimpete on the Mentalist field it works. The drawback I see is that it lacks mechanics. How much does a skill have to be made by to cpver a thought, or thought chain, over how many incidents or what time.

 

Mental Defense: Variable Special Effects. A good idea and very cheap. I could see plenty of limits like, Only Surface thoughts, Only one "secret" at any one time. It costs no END, Persistent, which could be limited to Coinstant. It seems like a SuperHeroic power but it is stepped, depends on how much you buy for Menatlists to overcome.

 

EGO characteristic: This was going to be my suggestion, a limited amount of EGO that is bought for hiding / covering / diverting thoughts from the PER'able truth. It is more expensive than MD, and has the same restrictions in Power Frameworks. Not as open to Limitations as MD, and adds to ECV which might send up a red flag, as opposed to MD which would not effect DCV.

 

 

I think in the end I would go with MD.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mindscaping

 

I like the idea of deceptive skills, but the mechanic we usually employ for telepathy ignores PER rolls, which is interesting. You would have to apply a mechanic you don't usually use. We could come up with some sort of mental skill, something like doublethink: make an opposed INT roll (the attacking telepath can add +1 for each 5 points of effect over the level needed) - if the attacking telepath wins they read as normal if the defender wins then they can be thinking something deceptive.

 

Of course that then opens the door to the attacking telepath making a telepathic stealth roll so that the defender does not realise they are being read...which again displaces an existing mechanic.

 

Perhaps telepathy SHOULD depart from the structure used for mind control and mental illusions and mind scan, and work with a PER based mechanic as it is, after all, a sensory power.

 

I like the idea of mental defence with some sort of advantage, but it grates a little as it requires a pretty big departure from the way MD works - it changes it from a defence to a sense affecting power.

 

Part of the problem is that the mental sense group covers, potentially, a lot of ground - what your mindscape ID looks like right through to what individual thoughts look like. I'm almost tempted to re-write telepathy as an enhanced sense that takes a penalty to PER based on the INT and possibly EGO of the target...

[Kdansky]

Re: Mindscaping

 

If you want a skill contest, or at least a roll contest: How about going the ECV route instead of Effect Roll? You could also buy EGO to "break out", ideally with IPE.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Mindscaping

 

Presto! You ARE alive!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mindscaping

 

I like the idea of mental defence with some sort of advantage' date=' but it grates a little as it requires a pretty big departure from the way MD works - it changes it from a defence to a sense affecting power.[/quote']

 

I can understand and respect why you would feel that way, but IMO "fooling the senses" in this case would be the SFX of not penetrating the Mental Defense, with Invisible Power Effects (which is essentially a Sense Affecting Advantage) covering not realizing the Defense was there, and Variable Special Effects accounting for the deceptive result. (Personally I would insist on both of those for this to work.) Overcome the Mental Defense, and it's all moot.

 

The issue I see with using Mental Sense Group Shape Shift is that it's unclear from the core rules whether there's an EGO +X threshold beyond which it won't work, or what happens if you try to probe deeper than surface thoughts. (I'm tempted to go bug Steve about this on the "Rules Questions" forum, although he'll probably tell me to check a page from The Ultimate Mentalist, which I don't have yet.)

 

Another thought I just had is Mental Group Shape Shift that's Linked to Mental Defense, to represent the condition that the MD must be effective for SS to fool the telepath. If the telepath fails to get the level of effect he wants past the MD, he only reads the thoughts the protected person wants him to read.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mindscaping

 

Presto! You ARE alive!

 

Rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated.

 

Still kicking, though I'm just now coming up with a little time and energy to mess around a bit with boards and roleplaying concepts. Good to banter a bit with y'all again.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mindscaping

 

I like the idea of deceptive skills, but the mechanic we usually employ for telepathy ignores PER rolls, which is interesting. You would have to apply a mechanic you don't usually use. We could come up with some sort of mental skill, something like doublethink: make an opposed INT roll (the attacking telepath can add +1 for each 5 points of effect over the level needed) - if the attacking telepath wins they read as normal if the defender wins then they can be thinking something deceptive.

 

Of course that then opens the door to the attacking telepath making a telepathic stealth roll so that the defender does not realise they are being read...which again displaces an existing mechanic.

 

Perhaps telepathy SHOULD depart from the structure used for mind control and mental illusions and mind scan, and work with a PER based mechanic as it is, after all, a sensory power.

 

Hmm. True. However, skills sometimes DO cause rolls where otherwise they would not be required. For example, often you don't need a Per roll to spot someone if they're just wandering through without using Stealth. Likewise you don't normally need a roll to recognize someone familiar to you unless they are trying to disguise themselves.

 

I think it can be done in ways that won't totally compromise the value of the Powers and mechanics as they exist now. One obvious balancing factor is that an opposed roll WILL be required, which may not be the case for some of the other solutions (e.g. some kind of Damage Shield). So you may not have had to pay for an expensive Power to fool your attacker, but your chances of success are also far from certain; the attacker doesn't need anything other than his/her Per and/or skills to counter your attempt. Hope that makes sense. I know I'm rambling a bit.

 

I'm not saying this is for everyone, but I think it is a good option to consider, especially for those GMs (like me) who like to emphasize the usefulness of Skills even in Superheroic games.

[pinecone]

Re: Mindscaping

 

So, what I'm after is a power that allows you to fool telepaths - not just not be read - that's easy - but to be read wrong. So, for instance, TeleLass mind reads me and discovers that, despite her suspicions, I am not staring at her breasts, I'm just cogitating on the state of the human condition and I just happen to have my eyes pointing in that direction, so she becomes all embarassed and tries to make it up to me.

 

The next week she reads my mind again, only to discover, despite what she had thought was overwhelming evidence, that I am not seeing ElastiLass behind her back.

 

I'm thinking either images or shapeshift (against mental group), but does anyone have another cunning plan?

 

The one time I've used it I used Images...so no help.

 

I once toyed with the idea of useing Multi-form for mind and personality changes...but that was to fool mind scan...I never considered Telepathy...might be woth a think though.

 

Mind lass thinks I'm a randy bas*ard 'cause I grabbed her hiney...upon reading she discovers I'm a honerable gentlman who has suffered an unfortunate accident...

[pinecone]

Re: Mindscaping

 

Is this where I suggest Invisability to Mental group :Invisable power ? "You can't find my mind to read it, here's some false thoghts instead"