Adaptive Invisibility

[TheChainTyrant]

In a world where extraordinary beings with hosts of exotic senses are common, even a suite of invisibility powers can leave you vulnerable when you need to be absolutely stealthy. It would be impractical to plan for every possibility, so my goal was to come up with a power that allowed me to detect the senses currently sensing me, in order that I may adjust my invisibilities as needed.

 

Is this within the means of the detect sense, to sense the senses currently sensing me?

 

Would I be able to use it in conjunction with some sort of precognitive clairsentience with No Conscious Control, so that the power could anticipate and adapt as needed behind the scenes?

 

I would probably place the Invisibility powers to be used with this in a Cosmic VPP, possibly also with No Conscious Control and Linked.

 

Thanks.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

It's certainly legal. Whether a GM would want to allow it is of course a different question.

 

Personally, as a GM, if I allowed the power, I probably would not allow No Conscious Control as a Limitation. After all, what else could you consciously choose to do with a precognitive Clairsentience with Detect Senses Sensing Me, other than to precognitively detect senses sensing you?

 

Another approach to the issue might be to use the Absolute Effect Rule (discussed on Fantasy Hero pgs. 250-251, The Ultimate Brick page 34, possibly other places). In this case, that would probably be to buy the biggest, baddest, most comprehensive Invisibility power that you and the GM think is reasonable, and then come to an understanding with the GM that this Invisibility will be considered "absolute" (i.e., the GM agrees that this build will be accepted in the campaign world as undetectable by any sense).

[Kdansky]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Well, it's not cosmic, since the powers which you can chose from in your VPP are far from all (only one power). See the book for that

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Well' date=' it's not cosmic, since the powers which you can chose from in your VPP are far from all (only one power). See the book for that [/quote']

 

Cosmic means only that the powers can be changed as a 0 phase action with no skill roll, which is a good way of simulating an unlimited slot Multipower. Nothing precludes the VPP being limited as to what kinds of powers can be taken within the VPP.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

As someone recently pointed out to me the Stealth Skill works on all senses, at least all sense that rely on PER. Obviously if you are standing right in front of someone you are going to take a massive hit to your stealth roll (-10?) but if you buy it up high enough you should be able to sneak past anyone, no matter what they are looking for you with.

 

The only power that apparently affects all senses is shrinking.

 

Don't forget, there is no such thing as a perfect defence in Hero - your sense being used to find out what sense you need to defend against could be circumvented or even fooled.

 

Oh, and you might want to consider a trigger on the cosmic invisibility VPP

 

Finally some senses do not use PER as such, notably telepathy and Mind Scan. Still, can't have everything

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

You can do it, but by the time you spend all the points to hook it up, you probably would have been better off just buying full-spectrum invisibility.

 

Here's a basic rule of HERO -- it NEVER makes sense to PAY points to be WORSE at something. If you want an ability that has some flaws (such as can't protect vs. all types of detects simultaneously), then you generally buy the full ability and then take a limitation on it to REDUCE the cost.

 

The specifics of what is being modeled (for instance detecting and becoming invisible to specific senses dynamically, but having a limit to how many you are invisible to at the same time) is just SFX and maybe just maybe a "flavor" ability (such as a Detect vs Senses That Can Detect Me) but only if it has independent usefulness on its own rather than just being a detail of the main powers function.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

I think the problem - and I may have this wrong - is that you cannot buy broad spectrum invisibility to the 'unusual' sense group - you have to buy invisibility to each sense and, given that you can define an unusual sense however you like, there is no way to cover all the bases. I think that the idea is that there would be invisibility to all the normal sense groups PLUS a sense that identified the characteristics of unusual senses and a triggered VPP that instantly builds a form of invisibility to defeat that sense.

 

Perhaps this is a problem of approach though - rather than bothering with invisibility at all, you could use a transform that specifically turned off an opponents senses, but ONLY with respect to you...

 

 

 

 

What?

[Vulcan]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

The problem that's coming up is that no matter how invisble you are, you are still actually there. And if you are actually there, then you can be detected. If all else fails, "Detect gravitational forces, microscopic" would pick up the presence of your mass, no matter how little mass you have (or how invisible you are).

 

It kind of sounds like you want to make a character who uses invisiblity as their sole and only defense. Going undetected is nice, but HEROs isn't a game of absolutes. There will always be someone who can 'see' you no matter how invisible you are, just like there will always be someone who can hurt you not matter how invulnerable you are. It may be rare, but it's still a possibility.

 

So don't negelct your other defenses.

 

PS: The best way to get the invisiblity you want is a combination of Invisibility and a high Stealth roll. That way at least there's a chance the exotic senes won't automatically pick you up. But sooner or later someone always rolls a 3...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

HEROs isn't a game of absolutes.

That's been said a few times in this thread. It's generally true' date=' but note that it [b']can[/b] be a game of absolutes, if the players/GM choose to make it so. Again, note the Absolute Effect Rule if desired.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Hmm. I'm thinking large Area of Effect (and/or Triggered) Mental Illusions: "You don't notice me! Really you don't. I'm not kidding".

 

(EDIT: Reworded to be more Sense-neutral)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

I think the problem - and I may have this wrong - is that you cannot buy broad spectrum invisibility to the 'unusual' sense group - you have to buy invisibility to each sense and, given that you can define an unusual sense however you like, there is no way to cover all the bases. I think that the idea is that there would be invisibility to all the normal sense groups PLUS a sense that identified the characteristics of unusual senses and a triggered VPP that instantly builds a form of invisibility to defeat that sense.

 

Perhaps this is a problem of approach though - rather than bothering with invisibility at all, you could use a transform that specifically turned off an opponents senses, but ONLY with respect to you...

 

 

 

 

What?

 

Unusual Senses still require a PER check...so 1 hex personal Change Environment with a lot of -PER levels, Personal Immunity, and IPE.

 

Alternately, don't bother w/ Invis at all. Step into another dimension and buy your abilities with Transdimensional.

 

This character does a little of both, for instance: Murk

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Unusual Senses still require a PER check...so 1 hex personal Change Environment with a lot of -PER levels, Personal Immunity, and IPE.

 

Alternately, don't bother w/ Invis at all. Step into another dimension and buy your abilities with Transdimensional.

 

This character does a little of both, for instance: Murk

 

Change Envirnoment PER penalties apply to specific named senses, not senses generally, IIRC, so we have the same problem of covering all teh bases. Also we have the problem we discussed recently about when a PER roll is required - is it only if you are using stealth or otherwise hiding? If the PER total exceeds a certain point, or if the perceiver's PER falls below a certainlevel, or something else?

 

Even transdimensional has its problems - you could buy transdimensional as an advantage for normal sight, for example.

 

Mind you, I say 'has its problems', but it does not really. I can not see the point in absolutes. I can't really think of any real absolutes in fiction, just differences in power. I recall in the X-Men, Rogue describing herself as invulnerable, which is pretty muich an absolute, but she is not - she's just difficult to break, not impossible to break. From the same comic, Wolverine is always describing himself as the best there is at what he does. Right...

 

Personally I think the fact that there is a way around absolutely everything is a feature of the system. The Adaptive Invisibility idea is a good way to side step some of the ways round not being sensed but even then there will be limits to the adaptability, but - and this is vital - in any given game those limtis may well not be reached.

 

Ultimately we don't need absolutes

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Personally I think the fact that there is a way around absolutely everything is a feature of the system.

*tap* *tap* Hello? Testing, one two. Is this thing on?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Change Envirnoment PER penalties apply to specific named senses, not senses generally, IIRC, so we have the same problem of covering all teh bases. Also we have the problem we discussed recently about when a PER roll is required - is it only if you are using stealth or otherwise hiding? If the PER total exceeds a certain point, or if the perceiver's PER falls below a certainlevel, or something else?

 

Even transdimensional has its problems - you could buy transdimensional as an advantage for normal sight, for example.

 

PER vs senses: yes I know; thus the character I referenced who has it specifically vs Clairsentience, which is traditionally a difficult "sense" to hide from.

 

On the subject of "Unusual Senses" though, I think a GM should be careful in allowing "separate senses" and only do so when it makes ...uh... sense because it is a powerful loophole. SFX should indicate when a sense is TRULY separate and not an enhancement of an existing sense.

 

For instance, this character Epiphysis has Sight bought again, as a separate sense (and a few stealth powers as well); it's surprisingly potent and renders many opposing sensory-affecting abilities effectively meaningless vs this character and I would have to think hard before allowing such an ability for a PC.

 

27 1) Third Eye: Duplicate Sight Power 17- (no Sense Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (240 Degrees), Mental Awareness, Mystic Awareness, N-Ray, Nightvision, Range, Rapid: x10, Sense, Targeting, Telescopic: +10, Tracking (74 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) 7

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

PER vs senses: yes I know; thus the character I referenced who has it specifically vs Clairsentience, which is traditionally a difficult "sense" to hide from.

 

On the subject of "Unusual Senses" though, I think a GM should be careful in allowing "separate senses" and only do so when it makes ...uh... sense because it is a powerful loophole. SFX should indicate when a sense is TRULY separate and not an enhancement of an existing sense.

 

For instance, this character Epiphysis has Sight bought again, as a separate sense (and a few stealth powers as well); it's surprisingly potent and renders many opposing sensory-affecting abilities effectively meaningless vs this character and I would have to think hard before allowing such an ability for a PC.

 

27 1) Third Eye: Duplicate Sight Power 17- (no Sense Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (240 Degrees), Mental Awareness, Mystic Awareness, N-Ray, Nightvision, Range, Rapid: x10, Sense, Targeting, Telescopic: +10, Tracking (74 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) 7

 

I would not say it is surprisingly potent, it is a 74 point power - I'd expect considerable potency. Of course it only actually costs 27 points but that it largely because it is a detect in a framework...presumably with special GM permission. Against an opponent who just wants to come over and smack you it is largely a waste of points.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

As someone recently pointed out to me the Stealth Skill works on all senses' date=' at least all sense that rely on PER. Obviously if you are standing right in front of someone you are going to take a massive hit to your stealth roll (-10?) but if you buy it up high enough you should be able to sneak past anyone, no matter what they are looking for you with.[/quote']

 

Well, according to the entry for Stealth in The Ultimate Skill, this is a grey area. If your Stealth Skill relies on being light of foot and adept at finding visual concealment, logically someone who has an Enhanced Sense of smell isn't going to be fooled by it; unless your use of Stealth includes masking your scent by covering yourself in dirt or mud, or making a point of approaching from upwind of your target (assuming such an approach is practical at the time).

 

IMO the Special Effects of Stealth have some bearing on this. For example, I wrote up a character for Digital Hero with exceptional Stealth that was partly mystical, and as a result affected all the senses. It would be up to an individual GM as to how broad a coverage he's willing to let Stealth have in his game.

[Tonio]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

IMO the Special Effects of Stealth have some bearing on this. For example' date=' I wrote up a character for [i']Digital Hero[/i] with exceptional Stealth that was partly mystical, and as a result affected all the senses. It would be up to an individual GM as to how broad a coverage he's willing to let Stealth have in his game.

 

I have serious reservations with allowing SFX to affect the character this much, though. Seems unfair to give someone with a "mystical" SFX on his Stealth to be stealthy towards all senses, while someone with a "I can move really quietly" SFX only towards normal hearing, without some sort of Limitation involved. =/

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

And I can certainly respect that position. FWIW my character was a villainous NPC, for whom many GMs will cut more slack than they would for PCs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

I would not say it is surprisingly potent' date=' it is a 74 point power - I'd expect considerable potency. Of course it only actually costs 27 points but that it largely because it is a detect in a framework...presumably with special GM permission. Against an opponent who just wants to come over and smack you it is largely a waste of points.[/quote']

I am the GM, of course. It costs 74 points because of all the other stuff tacked on to it (the N-Ray, etc). The base duplicate sight power is considerably less expensive.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

I am the GM' date=' of course. It costs 74 points because of all the other stuff tacked on to it (the N-Ray, etc). The base duplicate sight power is considerably less expensive.[/quote']

 

Indeed: 27 or 32 points depending on whether you thing normal sight is discriminatory (doh!).

 

Point is that you are spending at least 27 points to have a sense that works almost all of the time, no matter what people do to you, and that is a decent number of points. However, if I saw this I'd want to know how it works, what the unusual sense actually does. Third Eye is a nice descriptor, but what is it actually sensing? Unusual group is not a free pass to la-la land, it just allows you to define a sense that works in a non-standard way, it does not allow you to circumvent the whole issue of HOW it works.

 

Enhanced senses are one of those things that really could do with a bit of an overhaul, and I'd start by requiring every detect to say not just WHAT it detects, but HOW it detects (in terms of sfx) and what stops it (sfx again). I've built senses based on pre-cognitive abilities (they sense chronon energy passing backward through time - hardly anyone has a chronon flash BUT if someone studied the character and worked out how their sense worked they COULD build a chronon flash).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Indeed: 27 or 32 points depending on whether you thing normal sight is discriminatory (doh!).

I don't have my rulebook w/ me, but it gives the exact price of each of the normal senses as memory serves.

Point is that you are spending at least 27 points to have a sense that works almost all of the time, no matter what people do to you, and that is a decent number of points.

Yes, as I said, it makes most sense affecting powers meaningless vs the character unless an opponent had an ability specifically targeting such an unusual sense (which is highly unlikely in most circumstances). This is a pretty powerful defense for relatively few points.

 

However, if I saw this I'd want to know how it works, what the unusual sense actually does. Third Eye is a nice descriptor, but what is it actually sensing? Unusual group is not a free pass to la-la land, it just allows you to define a sense that works in a non-standard way, it does not allow you to circumvent the whole issue of HOW it works.

 

Enhanced senses are one of those things that really could do with a bit of an overhaul, and I'd start by requiring every detect to say not just WHAT it detects, but HOW it detects (in terms of sfx) and what stops it (sfx again). I've built senses based on pre-cognitive abilities (they sense chronon energy passing backward through time - hardly anyone has a chronon flash BUT if someone studied the character and worked out how their sense worked they COULD build a chronon flash).

 

The character's meta information is plentiful and the references to the mythos around the pineal gland and Descartes are obvious; if its unclear how the sense works or what it is supposed to represent conceptually then I don't really have anything more to add to clarify it.

[badger3k]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

In a world where extraordinary beings with hosts of exotic senses are common, even a suite of invisibility powers can leave you vulnerable when you need to be absolutely stealthy. It would be impractical to plan for every possibility, so my goal was to come up with a power that allowed me to detect the senses currently sensing me, in order that I may adjust my invisibilities as needed.

 

Is this within the means of the detect sense, to sense the senses currently sensing me?

 

Would I be able to use it in conjunction with some sort of precognitive clairsentience with No Conscious Control, so that the power could anticipate and adapt as needed behind the scenes?

 

I would probably place the Invisibility powers to be used with this in a Cosmic VPP, possibly also with No Conscious Control and Linked.

 

Thanks.

 

Since most senses are passive, taking information from the target, how would you detect this? If the person viewing the invisible character was using an active system (active sonar, or vision that projected some sort of light that needed to reflect off the target, as opposed to just picking up reflected light, etc).

 

It could be a detect/analyze for what normally is around (wavelengths of light, wind for scent, magic?). Clairsentience might be the best way to go, looking into the future a few seconds, maybe with the detect senses?

[braincraft]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

What's the special effect of this power? I get the feeling that you're shooting for a meta-power, something that grants the idea of invisibility instead of a defined transparency to certain forms of detection. The system doesn't really support that.

 

What you need to do is to just buy Invisibility to every form of detection used in the setting, which should be fairly finite. The whole idea smacks of cheapness, though.

[TheChainTyrant]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

Below is a formidable block of responses, but I though it prudent to respond in a single post. Thank you all for lending me your ideas and opinions.

 

Personally' date=' as a GM, if I allowed the power, I probably would not allow No Conscious Control as a Limitation. After all, what else could you consciously choose to do with a precognitive Clairsentience with Detect Senses Sensing Me, other than to precognitively detect senses sensing you? [/quote']

 

The point of the limitation would be that I would have no knowledge of what senses I was detecting. The power would be reflexive, working independently once activated. My main motivation for this is not to tack on a limitation (I would perhaps consider it a -0), but to represent the fact that the detect is only a means to an end. I'm not interested in knowing what unusual senses I block, just that the power blocks them. Maybe a different limitation would be more appropriate?

 

Finally some senses do not use PER as such' date=' notably telepathy and Mind Scan. Still, can't have everything [/quote']

 

My intentions were to buy an invisibility power covering all of the normal sense groups, including the mental sense group, in addition to the adaptive invisibility. The point of the adaptive invisibility is hide from the unusual senses as they come along. This has the power to stymie even the most obscure and unusual senses.

 

You can do it' date=' but by the time you spend all the points to hook it up, you probably would have been better off just buying full-spectrum invisibility.[/quote']

 

I could buy invisibilities to the published unusual senses, and even some that aren't so common, but there is always the chance that an enemy would possess some custom detect/sense I hadn't anticipated. There are dozens of practical detects to base a sense on. It would be impossible to stop them all without a power to detect them and stop them on the fly.

 

I think the problem - and I may have this wrong - is that you cannot buy broad spectrum invisibility to the 'unusual' sense group - you have to buy invisibility to each sense and, given that you can define an unusual sense however you like, there is no way to cover all the bases. I think that the idea is that there would be invisibility to all the normal sense groups PLUS a sense that identified the characteristics of unusual senses and a triggered VPP that instantly builds a form of invisibility to defeat that sense.

 

Perhaps this is a problem of approach though - rather than bothering with invisibility at all, you could use a transform that specifically turned off an opponents senses, but ONLY with respect to you...

 

You've summed up my predicament quite nicely, and even suggested an alternative I hadn't thought of. When I want to remain unseen, the default power I defer to is invisibility, but that doesn't mean there aren't other methods of achieving the same effect. Transforms, transdimensionality, mental images, images(?), mind control, suppress(?)......etc. All are viable, and if anyone has any suggestions along these lines, please, suggest away.

 

The problem that's coming up is that no matter how invisible you are, you are still actually there. And if you are actually there, then you can be detected. If all else fails, "Detect gravitational forces, microscopic" would pick up the presence of your mass, no matter how little mass you have (or how invisible you are).

 

It kind of sounds like you want to make a character who uses invisiblity as their sole and only defense. Going undetected is nice, but HEROs isn't a game of absolutes. There will always be someone who can 'see' you no matter how invisible you are, just like there will always be someone who can hurt you not matter how invulnerable you are. It may be rare, but it's still a possibility.

 

So don't neglect your other defenses.

 

PS: The best way to get the invisiblity you want is a combination of Invisibility and a high Stealth roll. That way at least there's a chance the exotic senes won't automatically pick you up. But sooner or later someone always rolls a 3...

 

Firstly, the sense I had in mind that would form the basis of my adaptive invisibility would detect "senses that I am not already invisible to that currently sense me", or along those lines. If it can detect me, then I would myself detect the detect used. It matters not how indirect the sense is.

 

Secondly, I do not plan on using this power as my only defense. In fact, I don't plan on using this power in combat at all. I'm designing this character's power for infiltration and evasion purposes, and maybe for getting a surprise first strike in combat, not as the cornerstone of my combat power.

 

As to the stealth plus invisibility combo you suggested, I was thinking along those lines as well, and if this power turns out to be more hassle than it's worth, I will fall back on that.

 

Since most senses are passive, taking information from the target, how would you detect this? If the person viewing the invisible character was using an active system (active sonar, or vision that projected some sort of light that needed to reflect off the target, as opposed to just picking up reflected light, etc).

 

It could be a detect/analyze for what normally is around (wavelengths of light, wind for scent, magic?). Clairsentience might be the best way to go, looking into the future a few seconds, maybe with the detect senses?

 

Yes, exactly. As I said I would use a detect, functioning as a sense in its own group. Used in conjunction with precognitive clairsentience, it could scan ahead of time and block the sense before it had a chance to detect me.

 

What's the special effect of this power? I get the feeling that you're shooting for a meta-power, something that grants the idea of invisibility instead of a defined transparency to certain forms of detection. The system doesn't really support that.

 

What you need to do is to just buy Invisibility to every form of detection used in the setting, which should be fairly finite. The whole idea smacks of cheapness, though.

 

Like I said, I can't prepare for every unusual group sense, even in just one setting. I don't know what you mean by "meta-power", but I can assure you that mechanical legality and common sense are forefront in my mind.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Adaptive Invisibility

 

What if I have Detect: Detect Sense Being Used to Detect Me? What about someone with TWO unusual senses? Detect Invisibility? What if you were up against someone with Invisibility vs Precognition?

 

For every countermeasure, there's a counter-countermeasure. If you want to be absolutely, guaranteed, no-exceptions undetectable, I don't think Hero is the system you're looking for.