Woo Hoo! We whipped Eurostar!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Re: Re: Question

 

Originally posted by Mentor

I had forgotten about the first attack being a miss, but that's the great thing about having lots of phases to act in a turn. As tough a fight as any character of mine has ever been involved.

 

Give major kudos to Blackjack for faking us out so smoothly as we thought we were going to clean up a lone villain and some agent types on the fishing trawler and Mentalla drains three points of Prodigy's Ego away. It went South from there when Scorpia, Durak, and Ultrasonique pop in. We just knew that we would be doing the "Escape From Fiacho's Death Trap" scenario until we won by the skin of our teeth.

I'd forgotten about the EGO Drain; although it ultimately made little difference in the fight vs. Mentalla since her EGO was higher than Prodigy's anyway.

 

And I'll second those kudos for Blackjack; he snookered us good. An outstanding adventure, especially since Blackjack has been GMing for only 8 months or so. I'm going to have to go back to GM school for some refresher courses; the new kid's making me look bad.

[starblaze]

I set my team up against Eurostar. I basically decided to play challenge of the gods sort of adventure. Basically I had Odin choose my PC's as champions against the champions of Istvatha V'han who were Eurostar. They ended up defeating the team for the most part but they got away when Scorpia poisoned one the heroes named Makeshift and bargained for the antidote. She actually ended up being the most dangerous villian of the whole team.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by starblaze

I set my team up against Eurostar. I basically decided to play challenge of the gods sort of adventure. Basically I had Odin choose my PC's as champions against the champions of Istvatha V'han who were Eurostar. They ended up defeating the team for the most part but they got away when Scorpia poisoned one the heroes named Makeshift and bargained for the antidote. She actually ended up being the most dangerous villian of the whole team.

I certainly wouldn't say Scorpia isn't dangerous; simply that against my SPD 9 DEX 43 martial artist she was simply too slow. Without Mentalla's interference Zl'f would have defeated Scorpia by Phase 8. She did actually manage to hit Zl'f once, but failed to do BODY to Zl'f (8 rPD) with her HKA and then got a lousy Stun multiplier to boot. To quote Spock: Random factors appear to have operated in our favor.

 

Against our team's other two martial artists (SPD 5 and 7 respectively, neither of whom was present for this fight), I think she would have been much more of a threat.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I certainly wouldn't say Scorpia isn't dangerous; simply that against my SPD 9 DEX 43 martial artist she was simply too slow.

 

43 DEX 9 SPD - who WOULDN'T be too slow?

[lemming]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

43 DEX 9 SPD - who WOULDN'T be too slow?

Depends on the game and the rest of the balancing factors. Granted I've only got one PC that's faster, but based on what I can determine from Zl'f's defenses, she seems balanced for the game and the scenario.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by lemming

Depends on the game and the rest of the balancing factors. Granted I've only got one PC that's faster, but based on what I can determine from Zl'f's defenses, she seems balanced for the game and the scenario.

Zl'f's total defenses are 12 PD and 12 ED, literally half of that from Combat Luck. So if Mentalla had Stunned Zl'f before Scorpia had hit with her claws, Zl'f's defenses would have been only 6 PD (2 rPD), and Zl'f would haave been badly injured (with Scorpias's lousy roll, probably not mortally although Zl'f would have certainly taken several BODY).

 

Zl'f has no "non-conventional" defenses at all: No Power Defense, no Flash Defense, no Mental Defense, no Lack of Weakness, etc. I deliberately keep her vulnerable to odd attacks because she is so hard to hit; it's part of her concept.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by lemming

Depends on the game and the rest of the balancing factors. Granted I've only got one PC that's faster, but based on what I can determine from Zl'f's defenses, she seems balanced for the game and the scenario.

 

That's always the test, and I definitely look at DEF and DCV in tandem. On the other hand, I look at OCV, SPD, DC'sand versatility of attacks in tandem, and a 9 SPD is unlikely to pass my "smell check" without some pretty serious limits in other areas.

 

From Eurostar's perspective, I would be loking for a character with an area effect attack (Bora would be suitable) to make your DCV less relevant. 1 hex area TK to pick up a non-flyer makes the person much easier to hit. And if you can lift them high enough with ne shot, they get some damage regardless, unless a teammate uses a phase to catch him.

[starblaze]

Bora is dead, both her and The Whip were killed by VIPER snipers during a war they had. They were replaced by Scorpia and Feurmacher. Just and FYI.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

That's always the test, and I definitely look at DEF and DCV in tandem. On the other hand, I look at OCV, SPD, DC'sand versatility of attacks in tandem, and a 9 SPD is unlikely to pass my "smell check" without some pretty serious limits in other areas.

Not that it really matters since I'm not playing Zl'f in your campaign, but I'm curious as to what kind of limits you'd require in order to permit a 9 SPD character into your game? My character already has the lowest PD & ED, the lowest DCs (10d6 max) for her attacks, the lowest STUN (29) and the lowest CON (18) on our entire team. What else can she do?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Not that it really matters since I'm not playing Zl'f in your campaign, but I'm curious as to what kind of limits you'd require in order to permit a 9 SPD character into your game? My character already has the lowest PD & ED, the lowest DCs (10d6 max) for her attacks, the lowest STUN (29) and the lowest CON (18) on our entire team. What else can she do?

 

I might even allow that one. 9 SPD is pretty potent, and I've never had a character even REQUEST greater than 7.

 

It's all comparable. If the campaign norm is 12DC with a usual range of 10-14, and SPD ranges from 4 to 6, dropping down to 10 DC to act 50% more often to twice as often seems a pretty good deal.

 

You don't mention your PD/ED number, nor your DCV, but with a 43 DEX, and a martial artist (which I associate with DCV bonuses), I would expect pretty much any hit with a campaign average DC to be a KO. So with a 12d6 (42 average roll) norm, I'd expect PD/ED of 13 or less.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I might even allow that one. 9 SPD is pretty potent, and I've never had a character even REQUEST greater than 7.

 

It's all comparable. If the campaign norm is 12DC with a usual range of 10-14, and SPD ranges from 4 to 6, dropping down to 10 DC to act 50% more often to twice as often seems a pretty good deal.

 

You don't mention your PD/ED number, nor your DCV, but with a 43 DEX, and a martial artist (which I associate with DCV bonuses), I would expect pretty much any hit with a campaign average DC to be a KO. So with a 12d6 (42 average roll) norm, I'd expect PD/ED of 13 or less.

PD/ED of 12/12, DCV during max (10d6) attack is 13. I used Sacrifice Strike instead of Offensive Strike because I think an all-out attack should lower DCV. She has one HtH Skill level, which was included in her DCV. My character's most-used attack is Martial Strike for 8d6. We have another martial artist with a 7 SPD.

 

Campaign average damage is 12d6, with the brick doing 15d6 IIRC and most of the other characters doing 12d6. And yes, a campaign-average 12d6 hit will KO her; a mere 9d6 will Stun her (18 CON). For what it's worth, Zl'f gets KO'd and/or Stunned almost 2 out of every 3 adventures. She got Stunned even in our fight versus Eurostar discussed in this thread.

[Agent X]

With area affect attacks out there. If I was your ref I might actually ask you to raise your defenses some.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

With area affect attacks out there. If I was your ref I might actually ask you to raise your defenses some.

It'd be nice, but not in concept. Oh well...

 

Thankfully this is a 4-color campaign; deliberately reminiscent of the early 60's comics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

PD/ED of 12/12, DCV during max (10d6) attack is 13. I used Sacrifice Strike instead of Offensive Strike because I think an all-out attack should lower DCV. She has one HtH Skill level, which was included in her DCV. My character's most-used attack is Martial Strike for 8d6. We have another martial artist with a 7 SPD.

 

Campaign average damage is 12d6, with the brick doing 15d6 IIRC and most of the other characters doing 12d6. And yes, a campaign-average 12d6 hit will KO her; a mere 9d6 will Stun her (18 CON). For what it's worth, Zl'f gets KO'd and/or Stunned almost 2 out of every 3 adventures. She got Stunned even in our fight versus Eurostar discussed in this thread.

 

Based on the overall numbers I don't see a problem (at least in my campaign). The character sacrifices offensive power for speed, accuracy and defensive power, and sacrifices soaking up damage for DCV. I'd call it a fair balance.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Agent X

With area affect attacks out there. If I was your ref I might actually ask you to raise your defenses some.

 

I could be missing the boat here, but with a 9 Speed and 43 DEX, diving for cover to avoid area effect attacks seems a viable counter to such attacks. It won't walyways work, but a character who can't be beaten makes for a pretty dull campaign.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I could be missing the boat here, but with a 9 Speed and 43 DEX, diving for cover to avoid area effect attacks seems a viable counter to such attacks. It won't walyways work, but a character who can't be beaten makes for a pretty dull campaign.

Yep, Dive for Cover and Roll with the Punch feature prominently in Zl'f's combat repertoire, along with the old standbys of Martial Block and Martial Dodge. As for a "character who can't be beaten [making] for a pretty dull campaign," I couldn't agree more. I enjoy having my character rise above her limitations by being heroic; it's a wonderful roleplaying challenge.

[Knightraven]

What is the average point build for your game?

A 90 point VPP?

43 Dex, 9 SPD.

I'm betting you guys had each of the individual members of Eurostar beat on total Character Points.

If that's the case, I don't really see where there was any real challenge involved.

IMO.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Knightraven

What is the average point build for your game?

A 90 point VPP?

43 Dex, 9 SPD.

I'm betting you guys had each of the individual members of Eurostar beat on total Character Points.

If that's the case, I don't really see where there was any real challenge involved.

IMO.

Standard 5th Edition level, 350 points plus a bit of experience. Every single member of Eurostar is built on more character points than any of our team.

 

It's not really all that difficult to do. 43 DEX costs only 99 character points even with no Limitations, and comes along with a free 5.3 SPD. So 43 DEX and 9 SPD would still cost "only" 136 character points even bought raw, or only 38.8% of a Standard character's total points. That still leaves 214 points for other powers and skills even without experience. Heck, I've built PC superheroes with fewer points.

 

True, most characters don't spend 136 points on any one thing, but you do when it's your "schtick." Zl'f's thing is high SPD and CV, she traded in high defenses and big attacks to afford it (12 PD/12 ED), including spending 11 character points on Acrobatics to get a 22- roll instead of sticking with her default 18-. I've seen plenty of bricks with 60 STR, high defenses, STUN and CON that together easily exceed 136 points. It's all in how you allocate your points. Sure, Eurostar has some "fluff" skills, but so do we. For example, my character, who can run 200 mph, also has Riding and Animal Handler for horses to reflect her hobby of horseback riding. Is there a game purpose to buying those skills for such a character? Yes, it's called role-playing.

 

Our mentalist Prodigy has a huge VPP, but he has to do everything out of it: Attacks, defenses (except for a bit of inherent Mental Defenses), and movement. I've never seen him use more than 60 Active Points on a single power; he's normally doing two or three things at once. It also takes him a full Phase to change powers in the VPP. He may be a big gun, but he's not very mobile so to speak. Three adventures ago he protected a human sacrifice by physically interposing himself between the sacrificial dagger and the intended victim. He literally dove on top of the victim, and the 3d6 (total) HKA did 10 BODY to the mentalist's back (No Resistant defenses). He couldn't change his VPP fast enough to save the victim with his powers, so he acted heroically to save a normal.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Standard 5th Edition level, 350 points plus a bit of experience.

 

Our mentalist Prodigy has a huge VPP, but he has to do everything out of it: Attacks, defenses (except for a bit of inherent Mental Defenses), and movement. I've never seen him use more than 60 Active Points on a single power; he's normally doing two or three things at once. It also takes him a full Phase to change powers in the VPP.

 

I'm working on a 90 pt VPP character for a 350 point game, and he has 50 points' life support. You don't have much outside the VPP, so you won't be firing off 90 AP attacks. [i've predefined him having a 12 DC limit anyway to avoid any ability to squish campaign power limits.]

[Mastermind]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Standard 5th Edition level, 350 points plus a bit of experience. Every single member of Eurostar is built on more character points than any of our team.

 

It's not really all that difficult to do. 43 DEX costs only 99 character points even with no Limitations, and comes along with a free 5.3 SPD. So 43 DEX and 9 SPD would still cost "only" 136 character points even bought raw, or only 38.8% of a Standard character's total points.

 

I guess you don't have Active Point caps on your powers?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Mastermind

I guess you don't have Active Point caps on your powers?

No, we have no point caps of any kind. We lifted them when we converted from 4th to 5th edition. Interestingly, not a single character's attacks or defenses increased. The GMs had to ask the team brick to increase her STR.

 

 

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I could be missing the boat here, but with a 9 Speed and 43 DEX, diving for cover to avoid area effect attacks seems a viable counter to such attacks. It won't walyways work, but a character who can't be beaten makes for a pretty dull campaign.

And a character who has lots of history and is whacked because of low defenses...

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

And a character who has lots of history and is whacked because of low defenses...

...is playing in the wrong campaign.

 

Make no mistake, I know her defenses are very low. If I were playing her in any other campaign she'd have 16 PD/ED, some Flash Defense and possibly Power Defense. Mental Defense for sure. It would be easy to have the necessary character points, I'd just cut out all the "fluff" I spent on her hobbies (8 points for Riding, Animal Husbandry and Skiing) and job-related skills (11 points for PS: Executive Assistant, Computer Programming, and Bureaucratics. I could also dump one 3-point Language skill and reduce her English to 2 point level.

 

That saves 23 points right there, and I could easily cut down her attack Multipower as well from 45 to 35 Active points.

 

I count on my GMs tailoring the scenarios to fit my character, just as I do for theirs. It seems to work out just fine.

[Blackjack]

Originally posted by Knightraven

What is the average point build for your game?

A 90 point VPP?

43 Dex, 9 SPD.

I'm betting you guys had each of the individual members of Eurostar beat on total Character Points.

If that's the case, I don't really see where there was any real challenge involved.

IMO.

 

Actually, each member of MidGuard is less than 370 pts and completely book legal. The two characters you cited have spent nearly all of their "powers" points in those areas because it was central to their concepts. It is also worth noting that both the characters in question together average over 65 character points in non-combat skills. Mentalla has twice as many mental powers available to her at any given moment than Prodigy, and doesn't need Extra Time and a skill roll to adapt to her situation. Meanwhile, while Z'lf may have a better base CV than Scorpia, Scorpia has better defenses and MUCH more dangerous attacks... If she had managed to get a clean hit on Z'lf, Z'lf would be toast...

 

I'm proud of them - it was a tough fight, and they made it work...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Agent X

And a character who has lots of history and is whacked because of low defenses...

 

Has a poor GM for not indicating campaign lethality and expected level of defenses more clearly to the player.

 

That is what you were going to say, right?