Woo Hoo! We whipped Eurostar!

[Talon]

I have to say, the description of this encounter and of the PCs involved sounds very cool. Any chance of posting PC stats?

[Tech]

Ah yes, Eurostar...

 

Eurostar has long been the bane of the premier hero group I'm in. (Yes, me, not my hero. j/k ) Many an episode was done where there was not one single instance of one or the other having a categorical victory over the other. Years later, our group got together and in a heated battle, finally, a decisive battle was won - in our hero teams favor. Years of playing later, a victory against Eurostar had been achieved. It was worth it!

 

"And there was much rejoicing."

"Yea-a-a-ah."

[Hugh Neilson]

Hmmm...does your GM not use a lot of PRE attacks, or does Z'lf spend a lot of time looking like

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Hmmm...does your GM not use a lot of PRE attacks, or does Z'lf spend a lot of time looking like

LOL.

 

We don't use a lot of PRE attacks in general in our campaign; they tend to be more along the lines of "Oooohmiiiigod!" when we first see some giant opponent but they seldom effect combat. I've never liked people being impressive just for standing around; I'm more impressed when they do something that creates a real "Wow!" factor. Just look tough; big deal. Level a building; now that's impressive.

 

For actual Presence attacks, Zl'f has a 13 EGO to help resist those (and I'm planning to buy up her EGO a bit more with XP). I just can't quite see a slender girl who's only 4' 10" tall having a 20 PRE. Besides, with a 9 SPD, even if she loses a Phase she still gets to act more than anyone else.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Has a poor GM for not indicating campaign lethality and expected level of defenses more clearly to the player.

 

That is what you were going to say, right?

Nope. I would suggest higher defenses because, even though I tailor my game to the characters somewhat, I don't want to have to be overly concerned that a villain with an explosive attack is going to cripple x character. That, IMO, is dictating too much to the GM.

 

I would prefer the character to have higher defenses defined by special effect to indicate that the defense is tied to their ability to avoid some of the damage in one way or the other. A good buy would be the power in the Champions Genre Book, "You only nicked me!" Armor bought essentially to minimize body damage. One body always gets through if this power has to be counted on but after that the armor soaks some of the body taken. Keeps the character alive... which is good.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

Nope. I would suggest higher defenses because, even though I tailor my game to the characters somewhat, I don't want to have to be overly concerned that a villain with an explosive attack is going to cripple x character. That, IMO, is dictating too much to the GM.

 

I would prefer the character to have higher defenses defined by special effect to indicate that the defense is tied to their ability to avoid some of the damage in one way or the other. A good buy would be the power in the Champions Genre Book, "You only nicked me!" Armor bought essentially to minimize body damage. One body always gets through if this power has to be counted on but after that the armor soaks some of the body taken. Keeps the character alive... which is good.

Those are certainly valid concerns, Doug. That's exactly why Zl'f has 6 points of Combat Luck, 2 points each of PD & ED Damage Resistance, and 12 BODY. (While 2 extra BODY may not seem like a lot, it makes a huge difference in surviving lethal attacks.) She's taken BODY more than once in the course of this campaign. Her total defenses still equal campaign average Damage Classes; so she's gonna take BODY occasionally, but her Regeneration keeps those injuries from becoming debilitating over time.

 

I think it's essential for characters to occasionally take BODY, or what's the point of even having such a stat? Taking BODY means your life is in danger; it's an incentive to fight on and win. I've seen many bricks who go their entire careers without ever taking a single point of BODY damage, as is only natural when game damage caps are 12 or 14 DC but most bricks have 25+ points of Resistant defenses. I think it's kind of dull when you know you'll just wake up after a suitable interval. You need to bleed sometimes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

For actual Presence attacks, Zl'f has a 13 EGO to help resist those (and I'm planning to buy up her EGO a bit more with XP). I just can't quite see a slender girl who's only 4' 10" tall having a 20 PRE. Besides, with a 9 SPD, even if she loses a Phase she still gets to act more than anyone else.

 

I had looked at the 13 EGO, but a 23 PRE attack isn't all that uncommon (7 dice), and 33 (10 dice) isn't too hard with an impressive action.

 

Like we said earlier, everyone has their weak points anyway. An option to EGO is PRE only to defend vs. PRE attacks, just to indicate she's not that easily impressed. But if you plan to buy EGO up anyway, defensive PRE has negligible value. [Maybe EGO only to resist PRE attacks?]

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I had looked at the 13 EGO, but a 23 PRE attack isn't all that uncommon (7 dice), and 33 (10 dice) isn't too hard with an impressive action.

 

Like we said earlier, everyone has their weak points anyway. An option to EGO is PRE only to defend vs. PRE attacks, just to indicate she's not that easily impressed. But if you plan to buy EGO up anyway, defensive PRE has negligible value. [Maybe EGO only to resist PRE attacks?]

It may amuse you to know that until about 6 months ago Zl'f had a PRE of 8. (Livin' on the edge; that's me.)

 

I'm OK with someone doing a PRE attack on her if it adds to the story. But even if they get to act first because she hesitates, she can still Abort to a defensive action. And if they want her to do something against her better judgement, that's a whole different story...

[Zed-F]

Amazing Speed: +5 SPD (50 Active Points); Only In Heroic Identity (-1/4), Linked to Phenomenal Coordination (-1/2), Greater Power is Constant (+1/4)

 

I was just wondering why there is a linked modifier between several of your character's stats and powers, and her Dex. On first glance, it's not quite obvious what the limitation is supposed to be. Is it so that if your Dex gets drained, it affects all the linked powers/characteristics as well? Normally you can only use a linked power in proportion to the power it's linked to, so that would make sense. Since the greater power is not just constant, it's 0 END and persistent, I'm not sure what the limitation would be otherwise.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Zed-F

I was just wondering why there is a linked modifier between several of your character's stats and powers, and her Dex. On first glance, it's not quite obvious what the limitation is supposed to be. Is it so that if your Dex gets drained, it affects all the linked powers/characteristics as well? Normally you can only use a linked power in proportion to the power it's linked to, so that would make sense. Since the greater power is not just constant, it's 0 END and persistent, I'm not sure what the limitation would be otherwise.

According to Hero Designer Linked Powers do not need to be proportional; it just reduces the value of the Limitation. The idea is that if Zl'f gets hit with a SPD Drain it affects her DEX, and vice-versa (Concept-wise I view the two as aspects of the same ability - incredible agility. That they are separate characteristics in HERO is just game mechanics). She used to be built with her DEX, SPD and Running in an EC, but I changed her recently to make her "book legal" even though both of my GMs were OK with the EC. This is a somewhat less efficient way to recreate the same effect. Ultimately Elemental Controls are really nothing but a "formalized" cross-linking.

 

Personally I've never liked that EC powers have to cost END. While it makes sense from a "rules rapist prevention" point of view ("Yeah, all of Mighty Man's abilities come from his "Mutant Body" Elemental Control"), I can see numerous EC concepts that would justify non-END Powers, such as a character with Density Increase also having Armor instead of a Force Field. I see ECs as more of a reward for a tight concept, but the penalty for that is the ability for opponents to Drain everything in it at once with a single attack. ("Gosh, Mighty Man, too bad your strength, dexterity and defenses were all neutralized too when Bad Guy Drained your X-Ray Vision.")

[Zed-F]

Ok, that's fairly close to what I thought. It might be more clear (at least IMHO) to write "affected by DEX and SPD Drains (-1/4)" for all your DEX-related powers rather than using that semi-arcane linked structure. Additionally, as it stands, you're not getting any point break on your DEX for it being vulnerable to SPD drains.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Personally I've never liked that EC powers have to cost END. While it makes sense from a "rules rapist prevention" point of view ("Yeah, all of Mighty Man's abilities come from his "Mutant Body" Elemental Control"), I can see numerous EC concepts that would justify non-END Powers, such as a character with Density Increase also having Armor instead of a Force Field. I see ECs as more of a reward for a tight concept, but the penalty for that is the ability for opponents to Drain everything in it at once with a single attack. ("Gosh, Mighty Man, too bad your strength, dexterity and defenses were all neutralized too when Bad Guy Drained your X-Ray Vision.")

 

My favorite example is Aid and HEaling. One costs END, so it's valid in an EC, even if I make it zero END with advantages. The other costs no END by default, so can only be in the EC if I make it cost END. Why? Neither game balance nor realism are served by this, in my opinion.

 

As for "EC: Mutant Body" - that sounds like a racial EC, so you'll have to persuade me all mutants have all these powers (they don't.) and that this is, or will shortly become, fairly well known. That gets you back to the requirement for a tight concept/special effect.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Zed-F

Ok, that's fairly close to what I thought. It might be more clear (at least IMHO) to write "affected by DEX and SPD Drains (-1/4)" for all your DEX-related powers rather than using that semi-arcane linked structure. Additionally, as it stands, you're not getting any point break on your DEX for it being vulnerable to SPD drains.

Thanks, that's an excellent suggestion. Not only is it much more elegant, but it saves me 4 CP on the DEX.

[Zed-F]

Glad to help.

[Trebuchet]

For game purposes I'm going to consider "Drain" to include Drain, Suppress, Transfer or Dispel. I think that's reasonable as a -¼ Limitation on her DEX, SPD, and Multipower, especially as she has no Power Defense.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Those are certainly valid concerns, Doug. That's exactly why Zl'f has 6 points of Combat Luck, 2 points each of PD & ED Damage Resistance, and 12 BODY. (While 2 extra BODY may not seem like a lot, it makes a huge difference in surviving lethal attacks.) She's taken BODY more than once in the course of this campaign. Her total defenses still equal campaign average Damage Classes; so she's gonna take BODY occasionally, but her Regeneration keeps those injuries from becoming debilitating over time.

 

I think it's essential for characters to occasionally take BODY, or what's the point of even having such a stat? Taking BODY means your life is in danger; it's an incentive to fight on and win. I've seen many bricks who go their entire careers without ever taking a single point of BODY damage, as is only natural when game damage caps are 12 or 14 DC but most bricks have 25+ points of Resistant defenses. I think it's kind of dull when you know you'll just wake up after a suitable interval. You need to bleed sometimes.

We must throw more dice in my campaigns.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

We must throw more dice in my campaigns.

Quite probably. The biggest attack I can remember ever seeing in my campaign was 16d6, and a couple of 10d6 AP attacks. Most villains hit for 12-14d6. Our campaign is Silver Age 4-color all the way. If I were running this character in most other campaigns, she'd have higher defenses and her Regeneration would be much faster.

 

My character Zl'f lives up to the low defenses tradition of my favorite comic book superheroes, such as Spiderman, Batman, Daredevil, and Captain America. Like them, she gets cracked ribs, nicked by a bullet, or the like and grits her teeth and keeps fighting. How many times over the years have we seen Spiderman fighting with his arm in a sling or Batman with his ribs wrapped? If her defenses are too low, she's got plenty of excellent company.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Quite probably. The biggest attack I can remember ever seeing in my campaign was 16d6, and a couple of 10d6 AP attacks. Most villains hit for 12-14d6. Our campaign is Silver Age 4-color all the way. If I were running this character in most other campaigns, she'd have higher defenses and her Regeneration would be much faster.

 

My character Zl'f lives up to the low defenses tradition of my favorite comic book superheroes, such as Spiderman, Batman, Daredevil, and Captain America. Like them, she gets cracked ribs, nicked by a bullet, or the like and grits her teeth and keeps fighting. How many times over the years have we seen Spiderman fighting with his arm in a sling or Batman with his ribs wrapped? If her defenses are too low, she's got plenty of excellent company.

I am quite proud of Trebuchet's willing ness to play Zl'f and play her so well. You guys have no idea what a departure this type of character is for Trebuchet. His most famous PC was a Power Armor guy, named Ranger, with every type of defense built into the suit and the highest PD and ED (combining armor and force fields to cover those nasty NNDs, you know) of any character in any of the campaigns I have played in or seen. The original omni defense dude. Dr. Destroyer might have gotten Ranger's attention.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Mentor

I am quite proud of Trebuchet's willing ness to play Zl'f and play her so well. You guys have no idea what a departure this type of character is for Trebuchet. His most famous PC was a Power Armor guy, named Ranger, with every type of defense built into the suit and the highest PD and ED (combining armor and force fields to cover those nasty NNDs, you know) of any character in any of the campaigns I have played in or seen. The original omni defense dude. Dr. Destroyer might have gotten Ranger's attention.

Hey, I like the character. I just worried she might meet an untimely end.

 

Our attacks usually range around 12-15DC but we get awfully inventive with rapid attacks, terrain, haymakers, and move throughs so the dice can creep up once in a while.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Agent X

Hey, I like the character. I just worried she might meet an untimely end.

 

Our attacks usually range around 12-15DC but we get awfully inventive with rapid attacks, terrain, haymakers, and move throughs so the dice can creep up once in a while.

Zl'f is fast and capable and doesn't get hit often, but she does get stunned or KO'd when when the baddies do connect. The rest of our team has been really good at jumping in to keep a downed team mate from getting the Coup De Gras, so far. All in a days work for Superheroes.

 

For some reason, a Brick named Fezzek (yes that Fezzek) seems to have her number and I always seem to roll a 4 or 5 to have him hit her. I will admit to fudging the attack from a 15D6 punch to a 10D6 grab and squeeze. GM prerogative and Fezzek doesn't like to hurt little girls. She still took a little nap.

[Captain Photon]

Hey Trebuchet + Mentor!

 

Any chance of seeing Zl'f's character sheet, or at least a picture?

 

:D

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Captain Photon

Hey Trebuchet + Mentor!

 

Any chance of seeing Zl'f's character sheet, or at least a picture?

 

:D

See page 4, this thread.

[Mastermind]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Sure. I don't have copies of the other characters, but I'd be happy to post Zl'f. I'll see if Mentor can post Thunderbird, Sidestep and Prodigy.

 

ZL'F

 

 

you wouldn't happen to have the .hdc would you?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Captain Photon

Hey Trebuchet + Mentor!

 

Any chance of seeing Zl'f's character sheet, or at least a picture?

 

:D

I'll post her picture below. And no, it's not a very inspired drawing or costume; I have zero artistic talent. The lettering in the picture is her superheroic name in Russian using Cyrillic lettering: ZL'F.

 

I'm saving my bottlecaps for a character picture by Storn.

 

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Mastermind

you wouldn't happen to have the .hdc would you?

Absolutely. She's a bit different than the version I posted earlier in this thread; I made some minor changes based on an excellent suggestion by Zed-F.