Various Powers at Edge of System

[caris]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

GMing this character, for example, he could walk into a room, get the lay of the land, zip back 40 seconds, burn off 40 seconds of downtime, and be ready to enter the room knowing what was inside.

 

Or he could pump someone for information, and then undo it - he still has the info, but know he never asked the questions or got the answers.

 

Or in a suprise calamity, he can jump back and deal with the happening knowing what is happening as it starts.

 

Generous interpretation of Precognative Clairavoyance can cover all of this. Since all this really represents is that he has knowledge of one possible way the next amount of time X is going to play out.

[caris]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

• You can project Images to every sense group.
  
• You can project Images to every sense group, and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.

 

 

What do you mean by no chance at all to recognize the Image as a Fake? For example, if it is an image of a wall will it prevent me from passing through it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Thank you everybody, MOST helpful. As is obvious, part of this is to try to figure out what's already possible in the system so I don't try to fix what isn't broken - I don't want my ignorance that X is possible already to make me try to come up with a way to do X when it already exists.

 

I will spend a few hours re-reading the replies, and then post back.

 

Thanks again, you guys rock!

 

Speaking from an angle of someone who really wants you to enjoy gaming with the Hero System, and really wants to help you:

 

Don't try and fix anything yet. You're trying to run before you can crawl.

[Beast]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

the big problem I see with your absolutes is that it invites the other side to have them also

you want no true death fine

but beware of that inescapable prison that is a 3'x3'x7' box locked away in another dimension

 

are you running the game or is someone else?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Like Hyper-Man said...

 

60 seconds back 45 active, 16 real

 

Extra-Dimensional Movement (Related Group of Points in Time, Physical Location Same As Starting Location) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only back a maximum of a minute; -1 1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Can only jump back a maximum of 60 seconds before having to burn off the stored time (and remain vulnerable while doing so); -1/4)

 

There you go, that is certainly one way to build it. I wouldn't let a player have it, I don't think because it would completely disrupt the flow of the game: I missed him? I'll jump back to last phase...

 

I reckon you could move a decent sized star with 300 points in TK...Of course you probably couldn't survive being within 1500m of a star...

 

You can avoid true death with a decent summon, EDM (again), a house rule waiving the true death rule, duplication, multiform and probably lots of other ways.

 

You can't circumvent all defences automatically AS SUCH because that is a Hero meta-rule that there always has to be a defence. You can come up with a cunning build (if the GM lets you, link two NNDs with different defences that are exclusive and only ever apply one lot of damage) or a custom advantage (maybe +2 or +3 and NO defences apply) but why? There is an interesting discussion on absolutes you might want to take a look at...oh, wait...

[CTaylor]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

I don't have a calculator capable of running the required numbers, but the sun weighs absurd billions upon billions upon further billions of tons. 300 points of TK is 200 strength, that ain't gonna do it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

I don't have a calculator capable of running the required numbers' date=' but the sun weighs absurd billions upon billions upon further billions of tons. 300 points of TK is 200 strength, that ain't gonna do it.[/quote']

 

It weighs 1.9891×10^30 Kilograms.

About 2 x 10^27 tons (2 Octillion Tons.. ish)

 

STR 200 = 25 Billion tons... not quite enough.

205 = 50 Billion tons

210 = 100 Billion tons

215 = 200 Billion tons

225 = 400 Billion tons

ooh we got a ways to go I think. . . but now I'm curious. I'll be right back.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Somewhere around 490 STR to lift the sun.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

I didn't really mean to get into how to build this specific power' date=' but a more general though process based on the example, but I will.[/quote']

 

Well done, and rep'd.

 

The impact of this power on the game needs to be thought out. In my view, this would be an acceptable power for a high power team game if expanded to include the team, or a good power for a high power solo game. To allow one character to have a "reset button" for up to 5 turns of combat, however, is not something that would work well in most games.

 

That said, if you want to allow it, your build is provided.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

In our High Powered Campaign (900+ Point Characters) we had a Time Manipulator who could jump a large group of people (800kg/8 ppl) back in time up to 5 Minutes.

 

It was a STUNNINGLY MASSIVE game breaking ability. So much so that an unspoken agreement to never ever ever use the Power again unless it was a Major Plot Point was made by everyone at the table.

 

It was used a total of twice in the campaign. the first time when we went "wow, that really does break the game." and near the end of the campaign when the Characters were pulling out all the stops and going for broke.

[sindyr]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

In our High Powered Campaign (900+ Point Characters) we had a Time Manipulator who could jump a large group of people (800kg/8 ppl) back in time up to 5 Minutes.

 

It was a STUNNINGLY MASSIVE game breaking ability. So much so that an unspoken agreement to never ever ever use the Power again unless it was a Major Plot Point was made by everyone at the table.

 

It was used a total of twice in the campaign. the first time when we went "wow, that really does break the game." and near the end of the campaign when the Characters were pulling out all the stops and going for broke.

 

It's interesting that your game had a similar power that wound up being in all caps "a STUNNINGLY MASSIVE game breaking ability" whereas the game I ran went smoothly and proceeded well.

 

I posit three possible explanations for the dramatic difference in outcome:

 

1) The powers weren't all that similar.

2) The game system (Torg) was less abusable than the one you used (presumably, Hero)

3) If neither of the above, perhaps it was the specific GM that made the critical difference.

 

My hunch is that it was #1. You see, in my game the character could only go back himself, and then only in ten second increments - and4 such increments were difficult. Additionally, the ability was limited in that once one had jumped back ten seconds, one only had another 50 seconds or so one could jump back - do that another 5 times, and you have NO seconds to jump back. Since there was no jumping forward with this power, the only way to get your seconds back to start jumping back again is to have a "timeout" where one's character is completely unaware and incapable of action, as well as being completely vulnerable, in order to "pay back" the time one has jumped back, to be able to do it again.

 

Long story short, if a combat goes bad, and the time guy has to jump back 30 seconds, he can, undoing everything that has happened - but he's the only one that remembers those 30 seconds, and he's probably still in a fight. If he tries that trick again, great, but now he can't jump back anymore, he's out of "jump back" time. And since the only way to get that back is to go catatonic for a long period of time, odds are he won't be using that ability for the duration.

 

It worked really well in our game. (Of course that wasn't his only time ability) I can't say whether that was because it was a really well balanced power, or because Torg works well for stopping exploits, or if I'm just that good a GM (I hope I am *somewhat* good, been doing it for 25+ years) - I *think* the power was well balanced. Which, since I helped the player craft it, I probably get credit for anyways.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Probably closer to 1; This ability was able to move a number of people back up to 5 minutes (any period with in) with no restrictions.

 

It broke the plot something fierce, and kind of ruined (in retrospect) some of the fun of said plot.

 

Her other time manipulation abilities were far more devastating overall, but didn't break the plot nearly so much.

 

However, the ability to make the power as you describe it exists in Hero, pretty easily. And naturally, how it affects the game depends on the plots involved and how the players and GMs use it.

 

I will note that a Hero Game Segment is 1 Second, a Phase is a Segment the Character Acts in - jumping back 12 Seconds is an entire Turn of Hero Combat; and often times about a full half of a combat.

[sindyr]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Did it move them back body and mind, as in if they were wounded, their wounds remained with them after going back, or mind only?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Everything. Physically, Psychologically, and (important for the game at hand) Spiritually. It "Undid" actions done to the character in the time frame; If someone was killed and she "Rewound" (as the power was called) Time then they were no longer dead.

 

They moved backwards in time the set amount to the previous time frame and lived everything again.

[Istaran]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

You can project Images to every sense group' date=' and anyone witnessing the Images have no chance at all to recognize the Image is a Fake.[/quote']

It seems no one actually caught this one yet.

 

Mental Illusions. (With AOE if you must share it with everyone.)

Someone subject to a successful Mental Illusions power percieves the thing you project into their head and cannot possibly see through it. (The defense would be to have enough EGO and/or Mental Defense to not be affected in the first place.) They even percieve it according to any unusual senses they might have (whereas it is in priniciple impossible to have Images affect all possible Unusual Senses, Mental Illusions gets around that nicely). If you want to go crazy with it, you can even injur people with imaginary attacks if you exceed their EGO far enough.

You will also want to achieve a high enough effect roll to make sure they don't realize after the fact that they had been under a Mental Illusions effect, as well as to penalize their breakout rolls enough to keep them under. So.. a LOT of dice of Mental Illusions.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Another way to create an "image" that no one can tell is a fake: Duplication. Possibly with 100% Altered.

 

Or Summon. "I create the image of a dragon attacking them!" as Summon: 500 Point Dragon.

[Istaran]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

It's interesting that your game had a similar power that wound up being in all caps "a STUNNINGLY MASSIVE game breaking ability" whereas the game I ran went smoothly and proceeded well.

 

I posit three possible explanations for the dramatic difference in outcome:

 

1) The powers weren't all that similar.

2) The game system (Torg) was less abusable than the one you used (presumably, Hero)

3) If neither of the above, perhaps it was the specific GM that made the critical difference.

 

My hunch is that it was #1. You see, in my game the character could only go back himself, and then only in ten second increments - and4 such increments were difficult. Additionally, the ability was limited in that once one had jumped back ten seconds, one only had another 50 seconds or so one could jump back - do that another 5 times, and you have NO seconds to jump back. Since there was no jumping forward with this power, the only way to get your seconds back to start jumping back again is to have a "timeout" where one's character is completely unaware and incapable of action, as well as being completely vulnerable, in order to "pay back" the time one has jumped back, to be able to do it again.

 

Long story short, if a combat goes bad, and the time guy has to jump back 30 seconds, he can, undoing everything that has happened - but he's the only one that remembers those 30 seconds, and he's probably still in a fight. If he tries that trick again, great, but now he can't jump back anymore, he's out of "jump back" time. And since the only way to get that back is to go catatonic for a long period of time, odds are he won't be using that ability for the duration.

 

It worked really well in our game. (Of course that wasn't his only time ability) I can't say whether that was because it was a really well balanced power, or because Torg works well for stopping exploits, or if I'm just that good a GM (I hope I am *somewhat* good, been doing it for 25+ years) - I *think* the power was well balanced. Which, since I helped the player craft it, I probably get credit for anyways.

 

 

My suspicion is more a variation of #3:

it was likely the player that made it balanced.

Have you seen the movie Next? A character who is basically a skilled normal, if that, with a similar power tacked on is clearly a Super in his own right. If he uses it extensively and well he need not have any other powers. The limitations you put on it help keep it from going completely out of control, but really if it didn't feel crazy abusive it was probably because the player kept from abusing it.

 

If you give a player Complete Invulnerability to All Harm, that is an inherently abusive power. If that player plays his character as a back-line character that stays out of the way, tries to avoid being targetted etc. it won't seem abusive in play. If that player does his best to draw all enemy fire to him, keeping the heat off his allies and such, the fact that he is Completely Invulnerable to All Harm will start to be obviously abusive.

 

As rreay pointed out, there's a huge array of benefits you gain from being able to jump back in time even a small distance. When you think about what crazy amounts of points/powers would be needed by someone else to duplicate the effects using a different approach (IPEx2 on Interrogate?! Even that's being cheap about it. You probably ought to buy it as Telepathy, IPE, maybe standard effect and Limited (only activates if you would get the +20 to be undetected(is that a Lim or an advantage?))) (precog clairsentience is already pricey) and then add in the ability to turn a plot line into a plot pretzel.. as a GM you need to be picky who you let run around with this kind of craziness. A responsible player that you sat down with before hand and discussed it with might be able to handle it okay. But as a GM you also need to keep it in mind when plotting things. Why would an ambush ever work as such? The first second of the ambush the PC can jump back 10 or 20 seconds and warn his party so they go around or counter-ambush. You might even want to put in a few such things here and there that are designed for that player to thwart.

[Istaran]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Another way to create an "image" that no one can tell is a fake: Duplication. Possibly with 100% Altered.

 

Or Summon. "I create the image of a dragon attacking them!" as Summon: 500 Point Dragon.

 

And give the Duplicate a rather pricey Shape Shift, just so you can chose what it's an image of each time.

[lemming]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

What do you mean by no chance at all to recognize the Image as a Fake? For example' date=' if it is an image of a wall will it prevent me from passing through it?[/quote']

 

How else would you explain the Road Runner and Wile E Coyote? Wile makes such a convincing image of a tunnel, that the Road Runner can just go thru it...

[lemming]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

It weighs 1.9891×10^30 Kilograms.

About 2 x 10^27 tons (2 Octillion Tons.. ish)

 

STR 200 = 25 Billion tons... not quite enough.

205 = 50 Billion tons

210 = 100 Billion tons

215 = 200 Billion tons

225 = 400 Billion tons <== Ahem. off by 5 str

ooh we got a ways to go I think. . . but now I'm curious. I'll be right back.

 

Not a big thing, but your calculation is going to be off.

[jtelson]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

And give the Duplicate a rather pricey Shape Shift' date=' just so you can chose what it's an image of each time.[/quote']

 

Summon and Transform are your friends when you don't want there to be a chance to detect an illusion. Force Wall w/ Variable Special Effects, Indirect and possibly a variation of IPE can also serve in a pinch.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Somewhere around 490 STR to lift the sun.

 

OK I'll give you that one

 

However given that there is no friction to overcome you could probably move the sun with 200 STR TK, albeit very slowly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Not a big thing' date=' but your calculation is going to be off.[/quote']

 

Actually, that was a typo

And I restarted the process to get to 490STR. I should be good, but someone might want to double check anyways.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

Actually, that was a typo

And I restarted the process to get to 490STR. I should be good, but someone might want to double check anyways.

 

I did. You're right

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Various Powers at Edge of System

 

It's interesting that your game had a similar power that wound up being in all caps "a STUNNINGLY MASSIVE game breaking ability" whereas the game I ran went smoothly and proceeded well.

 

I posit three possible explanations for the dramatic difference in outcome:

 

1) The powers weren't all that similar.

2) The game system (Torg) was less abusable than the one you used (presumably, Hero)

3) If neither of the above, perhaps it was the specific GM that made the critical difference.

 

How long, in seconds, does combat run in Torg? In Hero, one minute is enough to wipe out an entire combat and then some. The ability to jump back 3 seconds will wipe out one attack, often more, by pretty much everyone involved in the combat in Hero.

 

So I take my shot and miss, then backtrack 1 second and fire again. I don't like the damage roll, so I backtrack 1 second again. I can get 60 "re-do's" of my single attack over the course of a combat. Then I need to take a minute out to re-charge, and I can do it again for the next combat. That seems like a lot of ability to manipulate results. I suspect TORG attack sequences are closer to 10 seconds than one second.

 

Long story short' date=' if a combat goes bad, and the time guy has to jump back 30 seconds, he can, undoing everything that has happened - but he's the only one that remembers those 30 seconds, and he's probably still in a fight. If he tries that trick again, great, but now he can't jump back anymore, he's out of "jump back" time. And since the only way to get that back is to go catatonic for a long period of time, odds are he won't be using that ability for the duration.[/quote']

 

In Hero, 30 seconds would unwind the entire combat and then some, so the characters would now be able to re-plan the entire battle. "Careful, that guy has electric blasts that you're vulnerable to and that one's a Mentalist. Hit the Mentalist with your FlameBurst quick - he seemed to take a lot of effect from that."