Fine Manipulation

[Sidume]

Prefix: Rules Question/How to Build/Question/Observation

 

Currently, Fine Manipulation is an adder on telekinesis. This is really handy, but it seems like this adder shouldn't be limited to only this power.

 

Why not allow Fine Manipulation (FM) apply to any appropriate power? With the FM adder on your HKA & you could perform surgery with your claws. Slap FM on your heat based RKA and you could melt component X of the Macguffin, leaving the rest of it intact.

 

Granted, examples like this would probably take heavy negatives if you tried to do them in combat. And you would need the appropriate skill roll to determine which organ to remove, or to know the melting point of component X, but the idea remains valid.

 

Assuming this is acceptable, would it still be an adder? Should it be a naked advantage? How could you cram it into Heromaker?

 

Forgive me if this has been covered before. I did run a search, but I got hundreds of pages that had hits. I figured polling the audience might be easier.

 

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Interesting notion. Often you could handle cases like you describe as an application of the Power Skill for the relevant Power, or as penalties to the OCV of the attack to target a specific area of a device, like the Hit Location penalties. If you wanted to be able to do something like "perform surgery with your claws" on a regular basis, I would probably rule that those claws counted as "appropriate equipment" for use of PS: Surgeon, requiring you to take that Skill instead. For other kinds of precision work that a player wanted to be able to do regularly, I'd probably consider whether another Power would model what they want and ask them to buy that, before adjudicating new uses for Fine Manipulation for Powers it wasn't intended to apply to. I prefer to use existing system mechanics if they fit the bill. But I would never call anyone "wrong" for wanting to use FM, and I'm sure someone could come up with a scenario where that's the most logical approach..

[CTaylor]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I do like this idea, but I'd reject basing the skill roll on the active cost of the power - being more powerful doesn't necessarily make you more delicate with that power.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I do like this idea' date=' but I'd reject basing the skill roll on the active cost of the power - being more powerful doesn't necessarily make you more delicate with that power.[/quote']

 

Yes and no.

 

The real issue is - how much STR (to use a simple example) do you have in excess of what you need to manipulate that object? That's important.

 

If you have a normal STR, you can manipulate a scalpel or pencil in one hand with far more precision than you can a 20 pound dumbell.

 

In essence, it's like using the rules for extra STR over the str min for weapons and turning the extra DC into 'levels' of fine manipulation. Scalpel, pencil? Lots of precision. 20 pound free weight? Not so much. (unless you have a 35 STR)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I allow Fine Manipulation for Force Wall and Entangle to form complex shapes. I'm not sure what else it could apply to.

 

I think 10 points is quite expensive and would not object if the cost fell to 5.

[schir1964]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

[thread=60023]Houserule: Manipulation Mechanic[/thread]

More than you ever wanted to know about how to detail manipulation. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I allow Fine Manipulation for Force Wall and Entangle to form complex shapes. I'm not sure what else it could apply to.

 

I think 10 points is quite expensive and would not object if the cost fell to 5.

Shooting off a man's suspenders, a-la Once Upon a Time in the West.

Etching a message or image into a surface with a laser.

Etching a hologram into a glass surface with a laser (harder trick, I admit, but it occurred to me).

Heating tea with pyrokinesis.

Throwing a knife across a room to push a button, cut a rope, etc.

Turning invisibility off in one direction only to reveal one's self to an ally.

Turning only one aspect of one's gear invisible to sneak it somewhere.

Using your ice blast EB attack to freeze your opponent's boxers only.

Using Change Environment to rain on one person.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Well, all of those sound like Power Skill uses or OCV-penalty called shots, unless you want to be able to do any of them exactly the same way on a regular basis. In which case I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a single Adder that would give that wide a range of effects for a variety of Powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Well' date=' all of those sound like Power Skill uses or OCV-penalty called shots, unless you want to be able to do any of them exactly the same way on a regular basis. In which case I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a single Adder that would give that wide a range of effects for a variety of Powers.[/quote']

 

Let's assume the character does want to be able to do these things exactly the same way on a regular basis. If the adder is not your preferred approach, what is?

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Well' date=' all of those sound like Power Skill uses or OCV-penalty called shots, unless you want to be able to do any of them exactly the same way on a regular basis. In which case I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with a single Adder that would give that wide a range of effects for a variety of Powers.[/quote']

No book with me, so numbers may be off a little.

 

10 points = 1 fine manipulation adder for one power

9 points = One power skill with 3 skill levels

9 points = 6 PSLs with one power for one penalty

 

I'm not sure I see the problem. The adder means less dice rolling. If you like more dice rolling in your games, go with the latter two options. I have to admit I'm more of a story guy than a numbers guy, so I'm biased towards simplicity (an odd bias in a herophile, I know.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Shooting off a man's suspenders, a-la Once Upon a Time in the West.

Etching a message or image into a surface with a laser.

Etching a hologram into a glass surface with a laser (harder trick, I admit, but it occurred to me).

Heating tea with pyrokinesis.

Throwing a knife across a room to push a button, cut a rope, etc.

Turning invisibility off in one direction only to reveal one's self to an ally.

Turning only one aspect of one's gear invisible to sneak it somewhere.

Using your ice blast EB attack to freeze your opponent's boxers only.

Using Change Environment to rain on one person.

 

Nice list, although I agree with lord Laiden that the majority of them I would do with penalties to OCV.

 

Shooting off someone's suspenders or throwing a knife to cut a rope, heating tea or freezing an opponent's boxers with an ice EB all strike me as far better suited to an OCV penalty for the simple reason that if you blow the roll something bad could happen - an adder is pretty much an automatic effect.

 

Turning invisibility off in one direction or only covering a piece of gear. Hmm. I can certainly see the second use being something you could do with an adder, but the first seems very useful indeed. One of the major problems with invisibility (played with certain GMs ) is the inability of allies to see you, resulting in all kinds of potentially unformtunate situations. I would ahve thought that building it as PI with a UBO component would be favourite.

 

Using change environment to rain on just one person. Also a powerful effect, either normally built with the Accurate or the Selective advantages. I mean a personal rain cloud is kinda amusing but targeting one person only in an attack AoE, that's where such finesse could lead.

 

That just leaves the etchings, and again it seems like a fine candidate for a 'fine manipulation' type adder but...well, as you point out there is quite a difference between etching a message on a wall and etching a hologram into a piece of glass, and a simple adder leaves no room for differentiation.

 

The Power Skill allows you to make occasional use of your power in unconventional ways. I tend to be much freer with allowing its use, so long as the suggested use is not an increase in power, a re-build or another power completely, I don't really mind if powers are regularly used in unconventional ways.

 

Here's a thought.

 

Power Skill: a roll on the power skill allows you to change the way your power works on a single use basis that you should not attempt more than 3 times without ponying up the XP to actually buy the power BUT for each skill level with the Power Skill you can decide on a Power Trick that you can use as often as you like. All Power Tricks have to be GM approved.

 

There are some restrictions. You cannot use a power trick slot to modifiy your power by adding an advantage, unless the total active points are less than half those of the normal power. You cannot use a power trick slot to simulate the use of another power, unless the total active point s are less than half the normal power.

 

For example a GM might allow a Power Trick that enables an EB to etch a message on a wall or act like a flare to attract attention. A GM might require that more than one Power Skill level is required to accomplish a particular trick - for instance if the character wants to use his laser vision to etch holograms or extremely complex images.

 

If you subsequently spend XP to buy the Power Trick that frees up the skill level for another Power Trick.

 

Power Trick use is IN ADDITION to the normal use of the Power Skill.

[BoneDaddy]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Nice list, although I agree with lord Laiden that the majority of them I would do with penalties to OCV.

 

Shooting off someone's suspenders or throwing a knife to cut a rope, heating tea or freezing an opponent's boxers with an ice EB all strike me as far better suited to an OCV penalty for the simple reason that if you blow the roll something bad could happen - an adder is pretty much an automatic effect.

 

... [redacted for space, not content] ...

Why would the fine manipulation adder mean that they wouldn't have to make an attack roll? It would just eliminate the penalty for the "fineness" of it. FREX, the frozen boxers is still a called shot to location 13, but the adder would let you be very selective about what you targeted there.

Here's a thought.

 

Power Skill: a roll on the power skill allows you to change the way your power works on a single use basis that you should not attempt more than 3 times without ponying up the XP to actually buy the power BUT for each skill level with the Power Skill you can decide on a Power Trick that you can use as often as you like. All Power Tricks have to be GM approved.

 

There are some restrictions. You cannot use a power trick slot to modifiy your power by adding an advantage, unless the total active points are less than half those of the normal power. You cannot use a power trick slot to simulate the use of another power, unless the total active point s are less than half the normal power.

 

For example a GM might allow a Power Trick that enables an EB to etch a message on a wall or act like a flare to attract attention. A GM might require that more than one Power Skill level is required to accomplish a particular trick - for instance if the character wants to use his laser vision to etch holograms or extremely complex images.

 

If you subsequently spend XP to buy the Power Trick that frees up the skill level for another Power Trick.

 

Power Trick use is IN ADDITION to the normal use of the Power Skill.

Nifty idea.

 

If Fire-man (bad name, but so it goes) has a 60 AP Energy Blast (Fire blast), if he spends 5 AP on his Fire Powers skill, he could opt to always be able to do 30 AP of flame specific Images? If turns any power into a discount multipower.