Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Wow. Thanks to everyone for providing so much insight into the topic. I really didn't expect so much input on my silly newbie question.

 

 

 

So, in light of that, how would one deal with heinously awesome martial artists like the Legion of Super-Heroes' Karate Kid -- who, even after his post-crisis depowering, is shown capable of knocking man-sized holes in walls and judo-tossing enormous opponents? Would kung fu on that scale be best represented by increased STR with the limitation: Only With Martial Manuevers?

 

Or Hand to Hand Attacks (which is a form of Limited STR as well).

 

Karate Kid is probably best built with heavy helping of standard Martial Arts plus a mix of Powers that all have 'martial arts' as a special effect.

 

Remember, just because an ability is listed under the Powers section in the rulebook it doesn't necessarily count as a 'super-power' in a campaign world. Talents are a good example of this as most if not all are actually built using HERO Powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Jefepato, there are no silly, newbie questions.

 

Or spoons, apparently.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Wow. Thanks to everyone for providing so much insight into the topic. I really didn't expect so much input on my silly newbie question.

 

 

 

So, in light of that, how would one deal with heinously awesome martial artists like the Legion of Super-Heroes' Karate Kid -- who, even after his post-crisis depowering, is shown capable of knocking man-sized holes in walls and judo-tossing enormous opponents? Would kung fu on that scale be best represented by increased STR with the limitation: Only With Martial Manuevers?

 

"Martial Arts" can also be the SFX for Powers, with or without Martial Maneuvers. Here are some examples:

 

This document talks about how to convert Monks from D&D 3e over to the HERO System, and discusses several different ways to do it, including a version done w/ Martial Maneuvers, and another version done with Powers (usually in a Multipower). The thinking behind it is universal however and equally applicable to any other genre:

Monks Conversion

 

Here is a Supervillain Martial Artist, 550 points, done almost entirely with Maneuvers:

WU

 

Here is a Supervillain Martial Artist, 350 points, by OddHat done entirely without Maneuvers:

King of Kung Fu

 

 

 

And so forth.

[JmOz]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Wow. Thanks to everyone for providing so much insight into the topic. I really didn't expect so much input on my silly newbie question.

 

 

 

So, in light of that, how would one deal with heinously awesome martial artists like the Legion of Super-Heroes' Karate Kid -- who, even after his post-crisis depowering, is shown capable of knocking man-sized holes in walls and judo-tossing enormous opponents? Would kung fu on that scale be best represented by increased STR with the limitation: Only With Martial Manuevers?

 

In my experience the main thing Karate Kid has going for him is an insanly high level of a power called "Find Weakness"

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Find Weakness is a classic combo w/ Martial Arts in the HERO System -- good synergy.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

I think I'd feel better if we changed the name of the power 'Find Weakness' to 'Create Weakness'.

 

Anyway. Do carry on.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

I think I'd feel better if we changed the name of the power 'Find Weakness' to 'Create Weakness'.

 

Anyway. Do carry on.

 

I sense I'm going to regret asking this , but I'll bite:

 

What do you mean by this?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

I sense I'm going to regret asking this , but I'll bite:

 

What do you mean by this?

 

If you read the FAQ about FW, you will find that 'find weakness' does not in fact pinpoint tiny and fleeting weak points in an enemy's defenses, it rather curses those defenses to only be 1/2 (or 1/4, 1/8 etc) as effective when hit by you with an appropriate attack.

 

Example: If I use FW against target A, then shoot an attack that is compatible with FW against target B, which induces target A to DFC in front of target B, accepting the blow, then target A's defenses are halved.

 

Likewise, if I create a damaging trap with a 'step in this hex' trigger, then use FW on a target who then steps on that hex, their defenses are halved.

 

Likewise, if I have FW that affects all attacks, FW on an opponent who then goes invisible and I run him over with a car without knowing what hex he was in, his defenses are halved.

 

All of these examples point to a power that affects defenses, making them less effective against FW-compatible attacks. Not at all like something that allows the FW user to detect and exploit pinpoint weaknesses in defenses.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

If you read the FAQ about FW, you will find that 'find weakness' does not in fact pinpoint tiny and fleeting weak points in an enemy's defenses, it rather curses those defenses to only be 1/2 (or 1/4, 1/8 etc) as effective when hit by you with an appropriate attack.

 

Example: If I use FW against target A, then shoot an attack that is compatible with FW against target B, which induces target A to DFC in front of target B, accepting the blow, then target A's defenses are halved.

 

Likewise, if I create a damaging trap with a 'step in this hex' trigger, then use FW on a target who then steps on that hex, their defenses are halved.

 

Likewise, if I have FW that affects all attacks, FW on an opponent who then goes invisible and I run him over with a car without knowing what hex he was in, his defenses are halved.

 

All of these examples point to a power that affects defenses, making them less effective against FW-compatible attacks. Not at all like something that allows the FW user to detect and exploit pinpoint weaknesses in defenses.

 

 

The only disconnect I see is allowing external Triggered attacks to be combined with Find Weakness (even if it is bought to affect ALL attacks) and that is only because of the potential abuse that multiple 'land mines' could be setup before the first Find Weakness roll is even attempted.

 

The rest of the examples still fit the sfx of 'locking on to the weakpoint' on a target for the duration of a combat. And Steve specifically notes that GM's can rule that Invisibility can 'break the lock' if they choose.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

If you read the FAQ about FW, you will find that 'find weakness' does not in fact pinpoint tiny and fleeting weak points in an enemy's defenses, it rather curses those defenses to only be 1/2 (or 1/4, 1/8 etc) as effective when hit by you with an appropriate attack.

 

Example: If I use FW against target A, then shoot an attack that is compatible with FW against target B, which induces target A to DFC in front of target B, accepting the blow, then target A's defenses are halved.

 

Likewise, if I create a damaging trap with a 'step in this hex' trigger, then use FW on a target who then steps on that hex, their defenses are halved.

 

Likewise, if I have FW that affects all attacks, FW on an opponent who then goes invisible and I run him over with a car without knowing what hex he was in, his defenses are halved.

 

All of these examples point to a power that affects defenses, making them less effective against FW-compatible attacks. Not at all like something that allows the FW user to detect and exploit pinpoint weaknesses in defenses.

 

I'm familiar with how the power works, thanks. The question was a friendly baiting of Sean.

[Jefepato]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

In my experience the main thing Karate Kid has going for him is an insanly high level of a power called "Find Weakness"

 

Uh-oh. I was kind of hoping for something that didn't have a 19-page thread discussing it on the first page -- that's usually a sign of trouble.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

I'm familiar with how the power works' date=' thanks. The question was a friendly baiting of Sean.[/quote']

 

Are you certain? I bet we can get another posting of an explanation if you like, why, I have a PDF of 5ER right here!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Are you certain? I bet we can get another posting of an explanation if you like' date=' why, I have a PDF of 5ER right here![/quote']

 

Hmm...

{

Detect Bait: 14-

 

[roll]

3

}

 

Nah, I'm good, thanks. But nice try!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Hmm...

{

Detect Bait: 14-

 

[roll]

3

}

 

Nah, I'm good, thanks. But nice try!

 

Wort wort wort.

[The Dude]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

I'd be careful with that toy pea-shooter if I were you.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

I'd be careful with that toy pea-shooter if I were you.

 

Thanks for the friendly, unnecessary and unsolicited advice that carried no meaning or merit. Why, if I didn't know better I'd say that response was so poorly aimed that there's only the slightest possibility it was aimed at me! I'll even go so far as to point out that friendly baiting in this case was met with my traditional added-value baiting/friendly antagonism, which KS knows all too well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Careful Dude, you don't want to get too close to Thia when he has an Antago-gasm; he tends to spastically flail about in a moderately dangerous manner.

[The Dude]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

The Dude abides.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

The Dude abides.

 

Indeed. And lo, many things did come to pass.

[Vondy]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

IME after you've got the maneouvre bases covered it is generally more efficient to buy skill levels and damage classes than new maneouvres, but I do appreciate that efficiency neither is nor should be the only consideration.

 

 

You could also build a character with hand attack, skill levels, and "naked elements."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

You could also build a character with hand attack' date=' skill levels, and "naked elements." [/quote']

 

 

Believe me when I'm fighting naked, noone wants to come near me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

I sense I'm going to regret asking this , but I'll bite:

 

What do you mean by this?

 

Why KS, I do believe you are trying to bait me into an ill-considered tirade!

 

Shame on you sir!

 

Still, I'll bite...

 

The power assumes that either:

 

a) everything has a weakness that can be detected, or

 

whether or not there was a weakness* before, there's one now if you make a roll, albeit only one that applies to you

 

I suppose it could assume either or both, situationally. Given the way in which the power works (eg once you detect the weakness, it matters not WHERE you hit the target) there is apparently something in what you've done that makes all of their defences weaker, and, reasoning from effect, the effect being that the action you take reduces the subject's defences by half, it seems more likely you are actually doing something than just spoting something that was there all along.

 

 

 

*I suppose the alternative explanation is that you are in fact improving your attack against that particular target, which would make it 'Create Limited Increase To Overcome Resistance In Subject' but that is a bit of a mouthful, and has an unfortunate acronym.

[Utech]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

The power assumes that either:

a) everything has a weakness that can be detected, or

whether or not there was a weakness* before, there's one now if you make a roll, albeit only one that applies to you.

 

a) What's wrong with that? Each and every thing (and person) can buy Lack of Weakness. If a player does not want to do so, they concede that their character has a weakness that can be found relatively easily. A player can buy as much Lack of Weakness as they like, of course. That means they can customize their character to their liking. Which is good.

 

Want a character whose defenses have no weaknesses at all? By the rules, you can't. Just like you can't be invulnerable. But you could certainly work something out with your GM.

 

If you make your Find Weakness roll, you found a weakness that was there before -- whether or not the target was aware of that weakness. The weakness applies to anyone who makes their Find Weakness roll. Naturally it does not apply to those who do not have Find Weakness -- just as one player doesn't automatically get to shoot Energy Blasts just because a teammate can.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

a) What's wrong with that? Each and every thing (and person) can buy Lack of Weakness. If a player does not want to do so, they concede that their character has a weakness that can be found relatively easily. A player can buy as much Lack of Weakness as they like, of course. That means they can customize their character to their liking. Which is good.

 

Want a character whose defenses have no weaknesses at all? By the rules, you can't. Just like you can't be invulnerable. But you could certainly work something out with your GM.

 

This is a matter of style and approach. Assuming you can detect a weakness in anything changes the whole game world. Assuming the power works in another way - creating a weakness to your particular attacks doesn't. There is not a right or wrong, but I'd prefer to take the path of least resistance.

 

If you make your Find Weakness roll' date=' you found a weakness that was there before -- whether or not the target was aware of that weakness. The weakness applies to anyone who makes their Find Weakness roll. Naturally it does not apply to those who do not have Find Weakness -- just as one player doesn't automatically get to shoot Energy Blasts just because a teammate can.[/quote']

 

We need to define terms. A weakness, in context, is a reduction in the defences of the target to your attacks. That's what the power does. It is not a weak spot, because the reduction applies to the defences of the whole character. You don't even need to be able to detect the defences to be able to reduce them, so 'find' is a misnomer right from the start.

 

There is also the whole concern about the mechanics of the power. First it works very oddly against different (meta)types of defence, which makes no real sensewhen all the different types might well have the same sfx in game.

 

Then it - and this really does no make sense for a 'find' power - only works sometimes, goes away after a time and works at different levels on different occasions.

 

If you find weakness in a Standard Until Battle Suit (SUBS), well, chances are that weakness will be in all SUBS, and even if it is unique to that particular SUBS it is not going to go away or change in an hour, or a day, or a month.

 

I know that we are supposed to ignore what a power is called (a particualrly unhelpful approach IMO - names have such power) but there is little int he way the power is mechanically presented which suggests it works on a sensory basis, or works by finding something that is there. It is much more logical to assume that the power creates a weakness - and even then that doesn't cover all the possibilities - but it does cover more than 'Find' weakness does.

 

To make the power make a tiny bit more senses it might be - well, sensible to allow weaknesses to be memorised. For 1 point you get a fixed weakness - one opponent's weakness can be memorised to the 1/2 level. Each additional point allows memorisation of a weakness to an additional halving of defences. For 2 points you can memorise a generic weakness - for instance a weakness in all SUBS. You can buy memorised weaknesses and allocate them as you see fit, but you can only change memorised weaknesses with GM permission.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Noob question - Defensive Strike and Martial Strike?

 

Sean,

 

Something worth noting...

(again, as I have stated this before on similar threads)

 

Find Weakness dates back to the earliest versions of the Champions game (before there was even a distinction between Hero System and Champions). It even predates the Hit Location rules.

 

I posit that it was an early attempt at a quick and dirty 'hit location' like ability for supers. After full Hit Location rules were developed for 'Heroic level' campaigns it was probably determined that they were too clunky to be used regularly in superhero campaigns. Find Weakness remained the De facto method to implement a 'hit location' like effect in Champions/supers.

 

The fact that it was still included in 5th edition was a measured decision by Steve Long to allow smooth translation of 4th edition characters into 5th.

 

If you take a moment to look at the history of the ability in this context it will solve most if not all of the 'problems' you point out.

 

Beyond that, I think it would be more constructive to continue the Find Weakness discussion in the appropriate 6th Edition thread.