Doc Democracy Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Here's a thought that I got from reading the Outsider's perspective on the Hero System thread. What if figured characteristics were assigned at the creation point of a character? There are always arguments about whether STR should add to STUN or whether SPD should be INT or DEX or even EGO related. What if each figured could be assigned, thereby changing the costs of the primaries and giving you the character you desired. So, Mr Mental decides that his game speed should be INT based as most of his actions depend on quickness of mind rather than quickness of muscle and, for him, DEX is a 2 point characteristic that does not add to SPD while INT is a 2 point characteristic that does add to SPD? It might get more complicated with some other characteristics but it would be for the GM to decide based on the narrative of the character. This might make the purchase of characteristics a bit more HERO and a bit less vanilla. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds Interesting idea. While it would take some convincing to sell me on the idea, it's definitely worth concideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds Scrap the buggers all together and we have no problem. If Johnny thinks that he should have a high speed cos he thinks fast fine let him buy up his speed. If Frankie thinks he should have a speed cos he has real good reaction times then let him buy up his speed too. I really think Hero would be better off without figured characteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted November 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds I'm a bit more extreme than Alibear - I would scrap characteristics completely - keep the game counters CV, STUN, END etc but the game effect ones (mostly primary) I would replace with some basic assumptions and powers. However, that is a drastic step. I have therefore been looking at how they might be more HERO in application and use. This is one step... Decoupling is obviously one of Steve's talking points for sixth edition but I think there are tools that might be useful in applying costs and figureds that enforce genre conventions or to be used in package deals. I'm playing a longer game here. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds So instead of buying +5 body you would buy Hard to Kill with the relevant game mechanics found in that power/ skill/ whatever. +10 body becomes, One Tough Sumbitch! +5 dex becomes Combat Training +10 becomes Natural Born Warrior etc. ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds I'm a bit more extreme than Alibear - I would scrap characteristics completely - keep the game counters CV, STUN, END etc but the game effect ones (mostly primary) I would replace with some basic assumptions and powers. However, that is a drastic step. I have therefore been looking at how they might be more HERO in application and use. This is one step... Decoupling is obviously one of Steve's talking points for sixth edition but I think there are tools that might be useful in applying costs and figureds that enforce genre conventions or to be used in package deals. I'm playing a longer game here. Doc You could have characters purchase modifiers to 11- characteristic rolls and use some sort of sliding scale for lift capacity based on the margin of success. Or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted November 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds You could have characters purchase modifiers to 11- characteristic rolls and use some sort of sliding scale for lift capacity based on the margin of success. Or not. Hmmm.... Sounds kinda familiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted November 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds So instead of buying +5 body you would buy Hard to Kill with the relevant game mechanics found in that power/ skill/ whatever. +10 body becomes' date=' [b']One Tough Sumbitch![/b] +5 dex becomes Combat Training +10 becomes Natural Born Warrior etc. ?? I would write it up that way on the character sheet but BODY is one of those game mechanic numbers that players need to have in front of them. However, INT or STR or others might not. +5 INT might be Fast thinker - (+1 to all relevant tasks) It would be up to the GM to decide where quick thinking might be relevant - that might mean current INT based skills but could come in handy in other places. +5 INT might also be purchased as Deep Thinker - (+1 to all relevant tasks) which would apply most likely to a different suite of tasks. I haven't completely thought it through how I would like it (and personally would prefer a real game designer to do it for me!) Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds Here's a thought that I got from reading the Outsider's perspective on the Hero System thread. What if figured characteristics were assigned at the creation point of a character? There are always arguments about whether STR should add to STUN or whether SPD should be INT or DEX or even EGO related. What if each figured could be assigned, thereby changing the costs of the primaries and giving you the character you desired. So, Mr Mental decides that his game speed should be INT based as most of his actions depend on quickness of mind rather than quickness of muscle and, for him, DEX is a 2 point characteristic that does not add to SPD while INT is a 2 point characteristic that does add to SPD? It might get more complicated with some other characteristics but it would be for the GM to decide based on the narrative of the character. This might make the purchase of characteristics a bit more HERO and a bit less vanilla. Doc I don't now if it's a good idea or not, but it's original enough it ought to be brought up in the 6th Edition forums, in my opinion. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary points out that this will be different from "decoupling" because it will effect the character every time they spend experience on these things.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds Hmm. I think decoupling the "Figured" Characteristics would be a better idea than allowing them to be arbitrarily connected. Instead of spending that extra point on Con/Int/Dex/Ego because it increases your Stun, you could just spend the extra point on your Stun to increase it in parallel with the "Primary" Characteristic if it makes sense to do so. I might be in favor of decoupling some of the other calculated effects of the Primary Characteristics as well. For example, separate base Hand To Hand damage from Str (then used just for lifting and opposing forces--relatively static in nature). Maybe separate OCV and DCV from Dex (and each other). Maybe. I'm definitely not in favor of removing Characteristics entirely. Not unless some fundamental idea replaces them in a pretty outstanding way. They are too useful and intuitive a way of describing our characters. It is a descriptive element that we tend to use very often in real life as well, which makes them quite fitting for our game system IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds So instead of buying +5 body you would buy Hard to Kill with the relevant game mechanics found in that power/ skill/ whatever. +10 body becomes' date=' [b']One Tough Sumbitch![/b] +5 dex becomes Combat Training +10 becomes Natural Born Warrior etc. ?? And HEROS rapidly devolves into another game entirely from there. If that's the game you want to design and play, feel free to go for it. I will remain with the cruchy greatness that is the HERO System (1st-5th Edition; we'll see about 6th). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds And HEROS rapidly devolves into another game entirely from there. If that's the game you want to design and play, feel free to go for it. I will remain with the cruchy greatness that is the HERO System (1st-5th Edition; we'll see about 6th). No, not really. I was just clarifying Doc's post. If I did want to design a game I certainly would feel free to do so. I certainly wouldn't need your permission to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted December 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds And HEROS rapidly devolves into another game entirely from there. If that's the game you want to design and play, feel free to go for it. I will remain with the cruchy greatness that is the HERO System (1st-5th Edition; we'll see about 6th). I dont think you quite get it. This is more crunchy - there are no characteristics providing you with black box collections of powers, skill modifiers and game elements. Everything is built from the ground up... What it might do is provide an incentive to come up with and design character sheets with game enhancing titles and descriptions rather than the fun sucking list of game mechanics that the character sheet currently represents. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted December 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds Hmm. I think decoupling the "Figured" Characteristics would be a better idea than allowing them to be arbitrarily connected. Instead of spending that extra point on Con/Int/Dex/Ego because it increases your Stun' date=' you could just spend the extra point on your Stun to increase it in parallel with the "Primary" Characteristic if it makes sense to do so.[/quote'] Well there are some quite ferocious defenders of figured characteristics who reckon they should be figured because it makes sense to people when they see them and aids in the character design part of the game. I can see some value in that reasoning but I dont hold that one set of figureds can fit all games equally well. My connections would not be arbitrary - they could be the player making decisions about his character and its development (my combat speed is so toghtly related to my amazing brain that EGO should be the driving force behind the quickness of thought) or it could be the GM (this game is all about mentalists and psionics and so I am deciding that everyone will have their combat related to quickness of thought). It would be a potential way to drive particular kinds of character build. That intrigues me more than the availability of the characteristic set we have grown up with. I'm definitely not in favor of removing Characteristics entirely. Not unless some fundamental idea replaces them in a pretty outstanding way. They are too useful and intuitive a way of describing our characters. I hadn't even read this far before I wrote the above! If you do want the intuitive aspects of characteristics then why not see how we might use them to drive genre concepts and enable GMs to utilise this tool more effectively than at present? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds The drawback to this approach is that it moves Hero even further away from "playable game" to "design system for the GM and players to build their own game". I see some merit to floating figured's, but I think it would fit better as an "advanced game designer's option" than a component of the core rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted December 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Floating Figureds The drawback to this approach is that it moves Hero even further away from "playable game" to "design system for the GM and players to build their own game". I see some merit to floating figured's, but I think it would fit better as an "advanced game designer's option" than a component of the core rules. Yup - advanced option - possibly not even mooted until reading genre books and how to build your Fantasy HERO game.... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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