Limited SPD

[Lucius]

What limitation values would be appropriate for these limits on Speed?

 

a) Only for actions that cost no END

 

Only for actions taking one phase or less, i.e. this phase cannot be counted as part of any multi-phase or multi-segment action and any such action begun on a "regular" phase that would overlap a limited phase means the limited phase is lost. (example: If the character begins a haymaker, and the next segment would count as one of the phases gained by the limited SPD, that phase is lost and the haymaker takes place instead.) Skill rolls that may normally take more than one phase MIGHT be attempted with appropriate penalties for "rushing."

 

 

If it makes a difference: I'm planning on using these for a character who has SPD 6 normally, and another +6 with these limits. Among other things that means that ANYTHING that takes longer than one phase (like a haymaker) would mean the loss of at least one of these "extra" phases. My intention is that mostly they'll be used for skill rolls (Tactics, Analyze skills, etc) and perception and possibly Find Weakness. For further context, the character is built on two thousand points.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wishes we usually had budgets like that in The World They Call Real

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Limited SPD

 

Depends on how much you use them. If you have 6 SPD, +6 SPD only for stuff I use all the time, I wouldn't give you any disad on it at all. I've had something similar, yes -- 'only direct energy manipulation (TK, EB, Missile Deflect, but not Flight; -1/2)' -- but the limitations are on stuff that were LIMITING to the character. Movement is curtailed, as are a lot of the really cool tricks she can do.

 

Otherwise, take 6 SPD, +6 SPD (intellect uses only) or something.

[Lucius]

Re: Limited SPD

 

Depends on how much you use them. If you have 6 SPD, +6 SPD only for stuff I use all the time, I wouldn't give you any disad on it at all. I've had something similar, yes -- 'only direct energy manipulation (TK, EB, Missile Deflect, but not Flight; -1/2)' -- but the limitations are on stuff that were LIMITING to the character. Movement is curtailed, as are a lot of the really cool tricks she can do.

 

Otherwise, take 6 SPD, +6 SPD (intellect uses only) or something.

 

Hm, maybe you're right that I need to focus more on what those phases can't do.

 

Such as, no movement or attack. Probably no dodging either (that takes END doesn't it?)

 

 

I'd say SPD not useful for movement or attack is pretty limited.

 

Lucius Alexancer

 

And an unlimited palindromedary

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Limited SPD

 

A couple of questions: How would powers bought to 0 END be treated? Could they be used with the extra SPD one they were bought to 0 END? What is the special effect that allows the extra SPD?

[Kdansky]

Re: Limited SPD

 

2000 points? You better invest heavily into Knockback Defense then I'm not much fond of limited speed, it's so... weird?

[pinecone]

Re: Limited SPD

 

Yeah it does not sound like much of a limit...1) Saves a boat load of points,,, vs 2) "I took a physical limit I can only use a 6 speed, the other 6 is for zero end stuff...30 pts or less?

 

So at a glance -1/4 seems plenty.....

[tesuji]

Re: Limited SPD

 

What limitation values would be appropriate for these limits on Speed?

 

a) Only for actions that cost no END

 

If it makes a difference: I'm planning on using these for a character who has SPD 6 normally, and another +6 with these limits. Among other things that means that ANYTHING that takes longer than one phase (like a haymaker) would mean the loss of at least one of these "extra" phases. My intention is that mostly they'll be used for skill rolls (Tactics, Analyze skills, etc) and perception and possibly Find Weakness. For further context, the character is built on two thousand points.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wishes we usually had budgets like that in The World They Call Real

 

My gauge would be "how many useful things can he do under these restrictions?" If all of his useful powers are "COSTS END" then this might be worth a lot, but if he has useful things to do while at 0 end, then thats a whole nuther thing.

 

So some questions

 

are his defenses all 0 end? will he for instance not have his force field up during these extra phases? will he not be evading at full dcv?

does he have useful combat actions even at 0 end?

 

now you provide at least one bit of info, he can sit back and take find weakness rolls.

 

does he have 0 end movement powers?

 

etc...

 

if it boiled down to "i will use these in combat for find weakness rolls" and he maintains full defenses during that time period and fid weakness was an integral part of his offense, i would go for -1/2 but no more. starts adding in 0 end movement, etc and it drops to -1/4.

[tesuji]

Re: Limited SPD

 

fyi for skill checks in general - you might want to look at buying skill levels, or psls, to offset "hasty" skill use which iirc is a -3 for every time chart step quicker - that might be better than trying for "double speed" by buying +6 speed.

[Lucius]

Re: Limited SPD

 

My gauge would be "how many useful things can he do under these restrictions?" If all of his useful powers are "COSTS END" then this might be worth a lot, but if he has useful things to do while at 0 end, then thats a whole nuther thing.

 

So some questions

 

And they're very good questions!

 

By the way, I don't think I expressed myself very well with the "only actions taking one phase or less" limit by mentioning, say, haymaker. Instead, let me make the point that if the character does anything on a "regular" phase that takes more than one phase, including powers with Extra Time or a skill roll that takes more than one phase, etc, then the "extra" limited phases are lost.

 

are his defenses all 0 end? will he for instance not have his force field up during these extra phases?

 

I'm glad you asked that. What I'd been thinking was that constant powers like that would stay up, but it couldn't initiate any new powers costing END. But if it has a phase, even a limited phase, and the Force Field stays up, but it doesn't have to pay END for it, that sounds more like an Advantage than a Limitation....so I'll probably end up changing that to "can't start using a power that costs END" Or maybe "Can't use attacks, movement, or manuevers."

 

will he not be evading at full dcv?

 

My intention was to take the full benefit - or penalty - in terms of DCV, of whatever it was doing in the last "regular" phase. So no, it can't attack and then dodge in a limited phase, but if it's dodging in the regular phase it's still dodging in the limited one. I should also specify that the allocation of combat levels can't be changed.

 

does he have useful combat actions even at 0 end?

 

I was already planning to specify (even if I haven't yet) that even attacks bought to 0 END can't be launched in a limited phase. I toyed with trying to say Triggered attacks could be triggered in the off phase if, say, they were bought to "Using Trigger is an action that takes no time" but that struck me as way too easy to just use that Advantage to use the off phases for attacking. I'm planning to include attacks with "Variable Advantage" so - no.

 

now you provide at least one bit of info, he can sit back and take find weakness rolls.

 

does he have 0 end movement powers?

 

The character is still in development, but even if I give it zero END movement, I don't plan to use the limited SPD for that.

 

etc...

 

if it boiled down to "i will use these in combat for find weakness rolls" and he maintains full defenses during that time period and fid weakness was an integral part of his offense, i would go for -1/2 but no more. starts adding in 0 end movement, etc and it drops to -1/4.

 

I'm not even sure I plan to use Find Weakness. On the other hand, I AM planning to build some defenses that only kick in after being attacked once, and making an "Analyze Attack" roll (and that work only against attacks already used once that combat and succesfully analyzed.) There's also going to be a Fast Draw skill used on a regular basis to "change clips."

 

Thank you!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Find Palindromedary

[tesuji]

Re: Limited SPD

 

Ok well going thru the answers it sounds to me more and more like you dont really want these extra phases treated as phases - you can maintain constant powers possibly without paying end for them during the off phases, you want maneuver bonuses from last real phase to count, etc - so i would suggest dropping the whole "buy limited speed thing" altogether.

 

what it seems like you want - could be wrong - are two things:

 

1. some generic skill levels or PSL to counter the penalty for HASTY SKILL USE so that you can reduce time spent on skill use (extra speed allows you to do more.)

 

2. an advantage to FW that allows its skill rool as a 0 phase action. might want to borrow the +1 for "skill roll takes no time" or whatever its called in the vpp. GM may or may not allow it but if he were going to allow these "buy ltd speed for free phases" he would likely allow that since frankly, thats its most likely use.

 

as for the extended time actions taking more lost phases or whatever - that just doesn't seem like a serious lim unles your character was built with specific powers et al that made it an issue. 99.99% of all combat type events are one phase or less, at least, of the ones that are used - except for a few specific characters and so far this one "extra seed guy" wouldn't seem a likely candidate for them. so i dont give that lim much weight.

[Lucius]

Re: Limited SPD

 

1. some generic skill levels or PSL to counter the penalty for HASTY SKILL USE so that you can reduce time spent on skill use (extra speed allows you to do more.)

 

Much of what you say makes sense, but I'm not sure I understand this one. What gives you the impression that what I'm wanting to do is HASTY SKILL USE?

 

What I'm looking for, I suppose, is the ability to use those "off segments" to make things like perception rolls and skill rolls, without getting the combat benefits of having a SPD 12 instead of SPD 6. Not to make rolls faster - to make them more often, and to have "leisure" to make rolls for things like that in the midst of combat when I'd be otherwise fully occupied doing combat stuff.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Six palindromedaries on one side, a dozen on the other.

[Lucius]

Re: Limited SPD

 

2000 points? You better invest heavily into Knockback Defense then I'm not much fond of limited speed' date=' it's so... weird?[/quote']

 

I'll take Position Shift on Flight and possibly on Teleport.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys Megascale Swinging with Position Shift

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Limited SPD

 

The palindromedary buys Megascale Swinging with Position Shift

 

Now, can it bring moonbeams home in a jar?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limited SPD

 

Much of what you say makes sense, but I'm not sure I understand this one. What gives you the impression that what I'm wanting to do is HASTY SKILL USE?

 

What I'm looking for, I suppose, is the ability to use those "off segments" to make things like perception rolls and skill rolls, without getting the combat benefits of having a SPD 12 instead of SPD 6. Not to make rolls faster - to make them more often, and to have "leisure" to make rolls for things like that in the midst of combat when I'd be otherwise fully occupied doing combat stuff.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Six palindromedaries on one side, a dozen on the other.

 

A Naked Advantage Trigger is your friend.

 

45 He can scan a room in an Instant!: Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Allows character to make an automatic Perception Roll anytime he is in unfamiliar surroundings; +1) [Naked Advantage] for up to 45 Active Points of Normal Sight and Hearing

 

Add any Limitations to reduce the cost.

 

You could just apply the Trigger Advantage directly to Find Weakness as well.

 

HM

[Lucius]

Re: Limited SPD

 

A Naked Advantage Trigger is your friend.

 

45 He can scan a room in an Instant!: Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Allows character to make an automatic Perception Roll anytime he is in unfamiliar surroundings; +1) [Naked Advantage] for up to 45 Active Points of Normal Sight and Hearing

 

Add any Limitations to reduce the cost.

 

You could just apply the Trigger Advantage directly to Find Weakness as well.

 

HM

 

Hm....could I apply such a Naked Trigger Advantage to any given skill I want to roll?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is not sure Naked Advantages are Safe for Work

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limited SPD

 

I'm not sure about skills.

 

I was just applying the Naked Advantage to the listed (5er) cost of sight and hearing.

 

To cover skills as well you might need to build a Limited Duplication construct similar to what Killer Shrike did with Blackjack and his Luck Form.

 

Far more complex and expensive but less limited in it's application.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limited SPD

 

Limited SPD seems a reasonable approach to me, but will require a lot of handwaving. For example, when he has a "PER/Skill only" phase, by the books, his levels all reset and his maneuver bonuses and penalties end, and all constant powers require END be spent or they shut down.

 

PSL's to allow the desired actions to be undertaken as 0 phase actions with no loss of ability, if practical, may be the answer. A Trigger NPA requires the relevant skill be set up, so you'd need enough NPA to cover all the skills, senses, etc. you want to be able to use.

[Lucius]

Re: Limited SPD

 

Limited SPD seems a reasonable approach to me, but will require a lot of handwaving. For example, when he has a "PER/Skill only" phase, by the books, his levels all reset and his maneuver bonuses and penalties end, and all constant powers require END be spent or they shut down.

 

PSL's to allow the desired actions to be undertaken as 0 phase actions with no loss of ability, if practical, may be the answer. A Trigger NPA requires the relevant skill be set up, so you'd need enough NPA to cover all the skills, senses, etc. you want to be able to use.

 

I think I'm going to go ahead and accept that it will have to spend END on those phases. Since bonuses and penalties for manuevers etc. could all be either good or bad, I don't see a problem with saying it's just considered to still be doing whatever the last manuever was, just as "no movement in off phases" doesn't mean it stops dead for a second, it just means that it's still completing the last "real" phase's movement.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Unlimited palindromedaries

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Limited SPD

 

I had a weird idea earlier while doing my usual free association ADD thing (Reading Tuala Morn and UMA while watching the Pamela Anderson roast), and I think this thread spawned it.

 

I was thinking a resetting triggered SPD Aid (or Succor... haven't fiddled with a build yet), say triggered from a successful Block.

Add on a Limit that in addition to the normal fade rate, it drops 10 points off the total for every phase taken above the base SPD.

Makes for a sort of interesting "charging up" build.

 

Like spinning up a top