Super Shield

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Super Shield

 

One AVLD that I like is 'vs. dodge/luck/avoidance-based defenses' -- i.e. combat luck and other 'I get out of the way' dodging things. Wind-person's 'shove stuff aside' force field would work' date=' too. This works well for 'cuts through anything' weapons.[/quote']

 

I like that quite a lot. Repped

[pinecone]

Re: Super Shield

 

Well' date=' the most important thing a 'basic defense' (Armor or Force Field) slot allows the character to do is attack someone using unarmed martial arts without being completely exposed (Block or Missile Deflection not necessary). Actually using the shield to attack is usually the exception for cap', not the rule.[/quote']

 

Truth, I just like to use MoveBy's and Movethroughs, even as a MA, also it "explains" why I can be protected from a Damage sheild when I bash one, "I must have used my sheild"

 

While using the bash as a"finishing move" is way cool it might be impossable to use if the field contains active ranged fighters when the chance apears...it's "style" though, either and all ways are cool...

[pinecone]

Re: Super Shield

 

So I usually build it something like...

 

Multi (62) Mighty sheild! OIF

u Armor + 16 Def Hard x1

u E-atk 12D6 (PD)

u E-Atk 10D6 Indirect +1/4

+3 DCV OIF 10 pts

HA +X D6 OIF cost HA/2 (so +3 D6 would be 7 pts)

Luck 2D6 OIF 6 pts

 

and buy 1 or 2 levels of combat luck for the Cap clone for when I lose my mighty sheild...

 

For a 75 pts game you'd have to ramp up to what 16 Def Hard x2? I'd likely build a second e-attack as 10D6 AP, and a 12 d6 Rend/or Indirect +1/4 (for all those "trick shots")

 

It really becomes a "style" thang after awhile....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

For shield defence, I particularly like this build:

 

Shield 105 points active, 52 real

Force Wall (12 PD/12 ED), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; +1/2) (105 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), No Range (-1/2)

 

It is expensive but despite that it is not overpowered.

 

It enables you to shield yourself (you can add additional limitations for limited coverage, but this version only covers 3 hex sides anyway, I think). You can switch it off to attack and the trigger puts it back in place after you do so. It completely deflects damage but, if the blow is extreme the shield is knocked aside (it doesn't turn off as such, even though mechanically that is what has happened, although TECHNICALLY Body through the defence of a focus will destroy a power in that focus) until you re-set it (it still deflects some of the force of the blow, even then).

[Doc Samson]

Re: Super Shield

 

You will need GM permission to put skill levels in framework (not including the levels with Missile Deflection, which are an exception) as they are special powers.

 

Doing a search in 5ER, I found three basic shield builds:

1. "Questionite Shield" pg. 179 in the sidebar for Force Wall. The build is based on a 0 END Force Wall with the No Range, Self Only, and Focus limitations.

2, "Shield" pg. 208 in the sidebar for Missile Deflection. The build is based in Ranged Missile Deflection with the Activation and Focus limitations.

3. "Shields" pg. 488 in the weapons and armor section. They are built using 5 pt. levels of DCV with Focus limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

You will need GM permission to put skill levels in framework (not including the levels with Missile Deflection, which are an exception) as they are special powers.

 

Doing a search in 5ER, I found three basic shield builds:

1. "Questionite Shield" pg. 179 in the sidebar for Force Wall. The build is based on a 0 END Force Wall with the No Range, Self only, and Focus limitations.

2, "Shield" pg. 208 in the sidebar for Missile Deflection. The build is based in Ranged Missile Deflection with the Activation and Focus limitations.

3. "Shields" pg. 488 in the weapons and armor section. They are built using 5 pt. levels of DCV with Focus limitation.

 

I approve of 1 (subject to an understanding GM - technically breaching the shield should destroy it)

 

Missile deflection requires an action and only works against missiles - it just seems odd, because you can not technically MD and block in the same phase - although I have no problem with it.

 

DCV works well except against AoE - a shield classic is hiding behind it to avoid the dragon's breath - can't do that with this build.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Super Shield

 

I approve of 1 (subject to an understanding GM - technically breaching the shield should destroy it)

 

Missile deflection requires an action and only works against missiles - it just seems odd, because you can not technically MD and block in the same phase - although I have no problem with it.

 

DCV works well except against AoE - a shield classic is hiding behind it to avoid the dragon's breath - can't do that with this build.

I like the combination of all 3. You could almost build a Brick without taking any extra PD/ ED, Armor, or a Force Field.

 

As for #1, Questionite is an Unbreakable Focus, so while the Force Wall effect can be "knocked down" forcing you to reset it as a 0 Phase action, the shield remains.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Super Shield

 

The only problem I see is that by defining a block as a FW with 12 PD is that Cap couldn't effectively block an attack by a brick with >60 STR (doing on average 12 or more Body). That's why I like CSLs with the Block maneuver. You can block any HTH attack you like, regardless of damage.

 

Plus, if you blow the FW down, you negate a lot of the Body, but not enough of the Stun even for something like a 10d6 attack.

 

The Questionite Shield as defined in the Gadgets book is built on 105 points for a 16 PD/ED FW, but I don't know any GMs who would allow it as it's significantly over the AP ceiling.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Super Shield

 

The only problem I see is that by defining a block as a FW with 12 PD is that Cap couldn't effectively block an attack by a brick with >60 STR (doing on average 12 or more Body). That's why I like CSLs with the Block maneuver. You can block any HTH attack you like, regardless of damage.

 

Plus, if you blow the FW down, you negate a lot of the Body, but not enough of the Stun even for something like a 10d6 attack.

 

The Questionite Shield as defined in the Gadgets book is built on 105 points for a 16 PD/ED FW, but I don't know any GMs who would allow it as it's significantly over the AP ceiling.

You make a good point. I don't think I would necessarily define the Force Wall as the Block Maneuver. I would use them both seperately. If I were getting punched by Grond, I would attempt to Block and if my Block failed I would still have some defense to fall back on.

 

[edit] I'm thinking about how a character with above builds might play. In actual game play I would hope that my DCV bonus mitigated a decent amount of damage. After that I would let the Force Wall do it's thing. If I were getting nailed by Grond, I would assume the Force Wall is gonna go down and "Roll With The Punch" before he rolled damage. Also, If the Force Wall was my primary source of damage mitigation I would probably need Indirect as a naked advantage to cover my STR and any martial manevers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

You make a good point. I don't think I would necessarily define the Force Wall as the Block Maneuver. I would use them both seperately. If I were getting punched by Grond, I would attempt to Block and if my Block failed I would still have some defense to fall back on.

 

[edit] I'm thinking about how a character with above builds might play. In actual game play I would hope that my DCV bonus mitigated a decent amount of damage. After that I would let the Force Wall do it's thing. If I were getting nailed by Grond, I would assume the Force Wall is gonna go down and "Roll With The Punch" before he rolled damage. Also, If the Force Wall was my primary source of damage mitigation I would probably need Indirect as a naked advantage to cover my STR and any martial manevers.

 

The trigger advantage prevents the need for indirect: you set the trigger (zero phase action) drop the shield/FW (zero phase action), attack (attack action) and then the trigger raises the shield/FW again immediately, so you are only vulnerable if an opponent is able to attack at the exact same moment you do - which is not unrealistic.

 

Part of the problem with a MP build including Missile Deflection is the dichotomy between MD and block: you can block melee attacks and STILL have a shield slot available for geneal defence but if you MD that uses up the MP and you are effectively defenceless, which makes only very limited and circumstantial sense.

 

I think, technically, you probably cannot roll with punch and 'protect' your shield too as a FW is an external defence, but most GMs would probably let you anyway especially if the FW was 'self only' (my build was 'no range' but NOT self only - allowing you to protect people within reach if you want to).

 

Quick word on Cap's shield: it was invented before even a rudimentary understanding of physics: its sfx make no sense. I've heard it suggested that the vibranium alloy it is made of can absort any energy that hits it. If that is the case, then how can Cap move it? I've seen him falling - you'll love this - and STAND ON HIS SHIELD to absorb the impact. What? Even if you completely remove the impact damage Cap's internal organs are still going from terminal velocity to rest in a fraction of a second: he's meatpaste.

 

If someone came to me with that kind of half-assed justification in a game I'd politley suggest they think it all the way through. I know that we all do seven impossible things before breakfast, but even in a world where the impossible is commonplace we need a bit of internal consistency.

 

If you like a litttle spurious reality mixed in with your fantasy, it is not a bad idea to apply a limitation to the defences of any character who has external defences (like (sfx) force fields, armour or even tough skin) that the at least some of the pd does not apply to falling damage, because you are actually damaging yourself by stopping. This also helps to differentiate characters who, for instance, change to a metal form right the way through, or do not have delicate internal structures - their defences do apply to falling damage.

 

Sorry, bit of a hobby horse

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Super Shield

 

re: Trigger

 

A Trigger applied to a slot inside of a Multipower is of extremely limited utility as the slot must be active for the Trigger to go off.

 

Let me explain these 3 defensive slots from my earlier build (post 32):

 

2u 4) Deflect: (Total: 73 Active Cost, 23 Real Cost) Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Hardened (+1/4), Full Range (+1) (65 Active Points); Lockout (Only If Thrown AND the attack misses OR is Blocked/Deflected; -1/2), Conditional Power Range Based On Strength (-1/4) (Real Cost: 20) plus +2 OCV with any two categories of combat (HTH and Ranged) (8 Active Points) (Real Cost: 3)

Notes: 2 CSL's can be used towards Missile Deflection or Block.

 

This slot (as well as the entire shield build for that matter) would require GM approval. It represents a 'I've got to deflect this attack at all costs' approach. I think the use of CSL's within the slot qualifies for a GM exception. I even think most GM's would allow mixing 'Blocks' and 'Missile Deflection' attempts during the same Phase when using the Shield.

 

2u 5) Basic Defense: Force Field (12 PD/12 ED/6 Power Defense), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Hardened (x4; +1) (75 Active Points); Limited Coverage [61-180] Degrees (-1/2)

 

This slot represents a measured offense/defense approach. The character can still attempt to Block HTH attacks or make HTH attacks himself. The Force Field is available as a defense in either case.

 

2u 6) Full Defense (Of Others): Force Wall (12 PD/12 ED), Costs END Only To Activate (Bracing; +1/4) (75 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Limited Coverage [61-180] Degrees (-1/2), Restricted Shape (-1/4) 6

Notes: Acts as 12" Knockback Resistance

This is the only slot the character can use to defend others from AOE attacks (assuming a source direction to point the sheild towards). It's the classic 'I hide behind my shield from the dragon's breath'.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Super Shield

 

Aw, Sean, don't let reality get in the way of your good superhero fun!

 

If that were the case, then the whole shield concept is busted because you couldn't directly block Grond's punch. You'd have to define the Block as getting out of the way of the punch, not directly countering it.

 

I mean, Grond is what, 256x more powerful than Cap? That would be like standing in front of a moving car (at the least) and then we're not even talking about action-reaction, i.e. KB.

 

So, I gotta go with comic book physics!

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Super Shield

 

I think that the idea of a 12d6 attack 'rolling high' and 'blowing through' the Force Wall version is juuuust fine by me. Even an elite decathelete combat master can't get hit by a Mack Truck doing 40 without some bloody side-effects and knockback. When contemplating this stuff, remember what is most appropriate for what sort of action. Shielding from a firebomb or dragonflame or a hail of bullets -- or even just one bullet? The Force Wall. Duking it out with the Hulk/Grond? CVs to Block or just increased DCV. Falling? Sorry, you ain't standing on the FW shield and soaking the damn thing that way.

 

Me, I don't think I'd go with the missile deflection -- well, maybe, but definitely not the reflection.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

Aw, Sean, don't let reality get in the way of your good superhero fun!

 

If that were the case, then the whole shield concept is busted because you couldn't directly block Grond's punch. You'd have to define the Block as getting out of the way of the punch, not directly countering it.

 

I mean, Grond is what, 256x more powerful than Cap? That would be like standing in front of a moving car (at the least) and then we're not even talking about action-reaction, i.e. KB.

 

So, I gotta go with comic book physics!

 

I know, I know, I just can't resist worrying at that one

 

I would argue that Cap could use his shield to deflect Grond's punch, just not stop it dead, in the same way that a normal block often requires just a touch to give a punch sufficient lateral movement to make it miss.

 

Arguably in a realistic game we ought to limit our ability to block with something like 'ineffective against extremely strong/heavy opponents or attacks', but the character sheet gets so cluttered...

 

I remember seeing a Hulk comic once where someone (a middle aged scientist type) used judo on Hulk - quite effectively. I know it is all about using your opponent's strength against him but you still need an awful lot of strength to have any effect on something as big and heavy as Hulk.

 

I suppose that one of my many problems is that different writers have different takes on how powers work and the sensible ones just avoid clearly nonsensical ideas using their editorial VPP. In a game environment I think consistency is important and, except where the character build specifies otherwise, normal physics or a pretty close approximation ought to apply. In addition, of course, you can rely on players to attempt the nonsensical...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

re: Trigger

 

A Trigger applied to a slot inside of a Multipower is of extremely limited utility as the slot must be active for the Trigger to go off.

 

Agreed but the idea was to allow you to put your defence back up after an attack - clearly you could not use an attack that you had defined as another slot in the - but then that applies to however you build a shield, and is one stonking reason to largely avoid attacks and defences in the same MP

 

Let me explain these 3 defensive slots from my earlier build (post 32):

 

 

 

This slot (as well as the entire shield build for that matter) would require GM approval. It represents a 'I've got to deflect this attack at all costs' approach. I think the use of CSL's within the slot qualifies for a GM exception. I even think most GM's would allow mixing 'Blocks' and 'Missile Deflection' attempts during the same Phase when using the Shield.

 

 

 

This slot represents a measured offense/defense approach. The character can still attempt to Block HTH attacks or make HTH attacks himself. The Force Field is available as a defense in either case.

 

 

This is the only slot the character can use to defend others from AOE attacks (assuming a source direction to point the sheild towards). It's the classic 'I hide behind my shield from the dragon's breath'.

 

I'd like to see Block re-defined as a 5 point power that forms part of the basic template (or even that doesn't - not everyone knows how to black an attack), AND I'd like to see MD redefined as an extention of Block (and possibly th eability to block other types of melee attack too - perhaps 'basic block' can only deflect normal physical attacks, for instance. This would make Block and MD the same ability, in effect, and they could then be freely mixed without fudge.

 

I think my problem with a shield that includes MD as a MP slot is that the shield effectively does not exist for any other purpose if used for MD - which is somewhat counter-intuitive.

 

The FW build can't take 'limited cover', arguably, because a FW only covers 3 hex sides anyway, to a height of 1", so the limitation is already part of the build.

 

Ultimately though this is all just 'taste' and if it works for you then that is a good thing.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Super Shield

 

I know, I know, I just can't resist worrying at that one

 

I would argue that Cap could use his shield to deflect Grond's punch, just not stop it dead, in the same way that a normal block often requires just a touch to give a punch sufficient lateral movement to make it miss.

 

Arguably in a realistic game we ought to limit our ability to block with something like 'ineffective against extremely strong/heavy opponents or attacks', but the character sheet gets so cluttered...

 

I remember seeing a Hulk comic once where someone (a middle aged scientist type) used judo on Hulk - quite effectively. I know it is all about using your opponent's strength against him but you still need an awful lot of strength to have any effect on something as big and heavy as Hulk.

 

Yes and no. While it is a lot about how you define it (Doc Samson power-blocks, while Daredevil deflect-blocks), some of your posits are essentially incorrect. You really do not need a lot of strength to have any effect on something as big and heavy as Hulk; you need the right technique and the right leverage. Aikido works better the smaller you are, because it's about balance and the way the body is put together; being offensive requires moving outside of your center of balance, while being defensive does not. Judo's throws are essentially the same, as are 'deflection-blocks', which are half dodge anyhow. Remember that most of the 'strength' of the punch is in directing it forward (and thus doing damage), not controlling its lateral movement; the targeting took place BEFORE the start of the strike.

 

And the way I heard it, the Hulk was in Japan, trashing Sunfire and all the Avengers, and went bounding down full-steam towards some little old Japanese lady, who judo-threw him into a concrete block or something.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Super Shield

 

I think that the idea of a 12d6 attack 'rolling high' and 'blowing through' the Force Wall version is juuuust fine by me. Even an elite decathelete combat master can't get hit by a Mack Truck doing 40 without some bloody side-effects and knockback. When contemplating this stuff, remember what is most appropriate for what sort of action. Shielding from a firebomb or dragonflame or a hail of bullets -- or even just one bullet? The Force Wall. Duking it out with the Hulk/Grond? CVs to Block or just increased DCV. Falling? Sorry, you ain't standing on the FW shield and soaking the damn thing that way.

 

Me, I don't think I'd go with the missile deflection -- well, maybe, but definitely not the reflection.

 

Is there a version with Reflection on this thread?!

 

Anyway, preventing falling damage is per the source material:

 

The shield is not only nearly indestructible, but it absorbs a great deal of kinetic energy from impacts because of its Vibranium component. That is why the Hulk can pound it while Cap is holding it, without simply sending him into the ground or the air. Cap has also used the shield to cushion the force of impact when dropped from a high altitude by standing on the shield.

 

And here's how I would add the ability to my version of the shield:

 

2u 7) Land Like A Feather: Leaping 60", Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Limited Power Only To Stop Falling Velocitiy Damage (-2) 6

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

Yes and no. While it is a lot about how you define it (Doc Samson power-blocks' date=' while Daredevil deflect-blocks), some of your posits are essentially incorrect. You really do [i']not[/i] need a lot of strength to have any effect on something as big and heavy as Hulk; you need the right technique and the right leverage. Aikido works better the smaller you are, because it's about balance and the way the body is put together; being offensive requires moving outside of your center of balance, while being defensive does not. Judo's throws are essentially the same, as are 'deflection-blocks', which are half dodge anyhow. Remember that most of the 'strength' of the punch is in directing it forward (and thus doing damage), not controlling its lateral movement; the targeting took place BEFORE the start of the strike.

 

And the way I heard it, the Hulk was in Japan, trashing Sunfire and all the Avengers, and went bounding down full-steam towards some little old Japanese lady, who judo-threw him into a concrete block or something.

 

That ws the one

 

Hulk, according to MarvelDirectory, weighs 1040lbs, but then they claim he is 7' tall which is clearly preposterous - he's MUCH taller than that, so what do they know?

 

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/h/hulk.htm

 

Whilst I appreciate the mechanical principles of soft martial arts (and I use the word 'soft' with a great deal of respect), they still can only magnify available strength to a finite degree. IIRC the woman actually hurled Hulk. I'm thinking not.

 

Take, for instance, a compact car running at you. You've got no chance of deflecting that. You have to get out of the way. Judo and aikido rely to an extent on the principles of leverage meaning you can grip someone in a certain way and defeat them even though they are much stronger because your strength is magnified. Similarly with throws and blocks your strength is magnified by th eprinciples of the art.

 

There is a limit though, and I'm confident that if something was as heavy and strong as Hulk, you'd have simply too much momentum to deal with to block effectiely - it would be like that car coming at you.

 

We may not agree on that - fair enough -my thesis is simply that martial art give you an enormous mechanical advantage - but there comes a point where even that is not enough. Block doesn't - probably quite sensibly - address the effect of extreme strength differences.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Super Shield

 

Here are a few supers writeups with a shield of some sort:

 

Capt America by Edsel

 

Myrmidon is a shield and spear weapon master

 

Showdown wears technological bracers that can generate a shield sized solid force field

 

The Green Knight carries a technological shield

 

Ing has a wrist shield generator

 

Night Thrasher can use his Skateboard as a shield

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Super Shield

 

Whilst I appreciate the mechanical principles of soft martial arts (and I use the word 'soft' with a great deal of respect), they still can only magnify available strength to a finite degree. IIRC the woman actually hurled Hulk. I'm thinking not.

 

Take, for instance, a compact car running at you. You've got no chance of deflecting that. You have to get out of the way. Judo and aikido rely to an extent on the principles of leverage meaning you can grip someone in a certain way and defeat them even though they are much stronger because your strength is magnified. Similarly with throws and blocks your strength is magnified by th eprinciples of the art.

 

There is a limit though, and I'm confident that if something was as heavy and strong as Hulk, you'd have simply too much momentum to deal with to block effectiely - it would be like that car coming at you.

 

We may not agree on that - fair enough -my thesis is simply that martial art give you an enormous mechanical advantage - but there comes a point where even that is not enough. Block doesn't - probably quite sensibly - address the effect of extreme strength differences.

 

First, a little story:

 

Three martial arts masters were walking across the street when an out-of-control bus careened around the corner and barreled down on them. Each master reacted as per his art:

 

The karate master gave it his best punch-kick combination.

The judo master tried to use its own momentum to throw it.

And the aikido master got out of the way, finished crossing the street, and called an ambulance for the other two masters.

 

The Hulk, however, is not exactly a bus; he's a bipedal humanoid. A bus can't be tripped; the Hulk can. Go running at full speed, then trip across something; better yet, have someone help lift you as you trip. Did you go straight into the ground? No, of course not; you tumbled forward. Forward momentum doesn't stop just because you're going down. The principles of these arts is not entirely that they magnify your strength; it's also that they pit your full strength against the other individual's weakness as well as using basic principles of physics in your favor. A moderately-trained four-year-old can, using these basic principles of physics, leverage, and anatomy, throw a massively-muscled bodybuilder.

 

The Hulk is still a bipedal humanoid who can trip; she, essentially, tripped him. I do, on the other hand, agree that the general Block doesn't deal with radical differences in strength; which is why there are some things that the GM should influence.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Super Shield

 

Yeah, but bipedal or not, trying to trip Hulk would probably rip your leg off. It's a 4 year old trying to trip a 350 pound Sumo wrestler, times 4 (at least).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

 

Anyway, preventing falling damage is per the source material:

 

I'd have to argue that just because it is in the source material is no good reason to allow it in a game. You don't copy bad concept. Even if you could absorb all of the impact damage from a fall - and let us say you can - what's going to kill you is, quite literally, stopping - your internal organs still have all that kinetic energy they have to do something with, and what they'll do with it if you stop very suddenly is rip themselves out of their housings and splat on the inside of your body. Car crashes work similarly: often it is not the impact that kills, but the bleeding of kinetic energy from your squidgy bits too fast for them to hold.

 

This may seem like a ridiculous point when we are talking about the impossible anyway, but it bugs me because it is not internally consistent, just like anyone stopping suddenly at the end of a long fall won't be internally consistent.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

First, a little story:

 

Three martial arts masters were walking across the street when an out-of-control bus careened around the corner and barreled down on them. Each master reacted as per his art:

 

The karate master gave it his best punch-kick combination.

The judo master tried to use its own momentum to throw it.

And the aikido master got out of the way, finished crossing the street, and called an ambulance for the other two masters.

 

The Hulk, however, is not exactly a bus; he's a bipedal humanoid. A bus can't be tripped; the Hulk can. Go running at full speed, then trip across something; better yet, have someone help lift you as you trip. Did you go straight into the ground? No, of course not; you tumbled forward. Forward momentum doesn't stop just because you're going down. The principles of these arts is not entirely that they magnify your strength; it's also that they pit your full strength against the other individual's weakness as well as using basic principles of physics in your favor. A moderately-trained four-year-old can, using these basic principles of physics, leverage, and anatomy, throw a massively-muscled bodybuilder.

 

The Hulk is still a bipedal humanoid who can trip; she, essentially, tripped him. I do, on the other hand, agree that the general Block doesn't deal with radical differences in strength; which is why there are some things that the GM should influence.

 

This is one of those questions we will never answer: how easy is it to trip the Hulk? Ultimately, it is a matter of personal preference as to whether that sort of thing goes on in your game. There's certainly nothing int he rules that prevents it. I absolutely agree that if Hulk is on the point of falling then not much force is needed to make him fall, but you usually have to get an opponent in a position where they can fall. Some people won't see it as inconsistent that grandma trips Hulk, but it really stuck in my memory because it didn't jibe with my world-view and, unless you are a big Hulk aficionado, it stuck in your memory too...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Super Shield

 

Also - just to whine on a bit more about Cap's dodgy power description - if his shield did absorb almost all the kinetic energy applied to it he'd never be able to pick it up.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Super Shield

 

What if it said "kinetic energy caused by impact" or "kinetic energy applied against the curved side of the shield"? It may not be "realistic" but most characters are not if you look at the genre.