Beholder

[Lucius]

Does anyone have a write up for a beholder?

 

Or should I expect a visit from Mr. Jones and Mr. Rodgriguez just for asking about it?

 

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html

 

If no one does I'll do it myself, any ideas how are welcome!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders what they eat - and how - and where they keep a stomache....

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Beholder

 

I thought Susano had one on his website, but I can't find it if it's there.

 

Basics: Its armor doesn't fully protect the main eye, and its smaller eye stalks are OAF. Everything else is pretty self-explanatory.

[LoresLost]

Re: Beholder

 

I thought Susano had one on his website, but I can't find it if it's there.

 

Basics: Its armor doesn't fully protect the main eye, and its smaller eye stalks are OAF. Everything else is pretty self-explanatory.

 

BEHOLD: Susano's BEHOLDER

 

Okay I had my fun for the day.

[tesuji]

Re: Beholder

 

FWIW you might want to borrow the writeup for the hydra from the bestiary (i think) as in there they give the hydran duplication in order to account for it getting multiple attacks from the heads. As this beholder is written it gets only one action at a time and thus only uses one eye at a time.

 

from my recollection what makes the beholder so terrible is it using multiple eyes at once and one eye at a time acting at speed 4 doesn't capture that feeling for me.

 

but add in duplication 8 duplicates only for eye beams... things get back to scary.

[Lucius]

Re: Beholder

 

FWIW you might want to borrow the writeup for the hydra from the bestiary (i think) as in there they give the hydran duplication in order to account for it getting multiple attacks from the heads. As this beholder is written it gets only one action at a time and thus only uses one eye at a time.

 

from my recollection what makes the beholder so terrible is it using multiple eyes at once and one eye at a time acting at speed 4 doesn't capture that feeling for me.

 

but add in duplication 8 duplicates only for eye beams... things get back to scary.

 

Yeah, I have a couple of issues with Susano's Beholder, but it's a place to start.

 

Actually, I have issues with the original D&D Beholder too.

 

You may be right that I should look at the Hydra option.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Looking speculatively at a palindromedary

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Beholder

 

It depends on just how ridonkulous you want your Beholder to be. I was puzzling over this VERY QUESTION the other day, and came to the following conclusions:

 

1) A Beholder probably won't have a cost cap; to do it 'right' is insanely expensive, which is fine, because it's a boss battle if ever there was one. You vs. a floating multi-stalked eyeball the size of a VW Bus. Go. And oh yeah; it's MORE Intelligent than the GM can ever be, have fun RPing THAT.

 

2) A properly handled Beholder borders on the unbeatable, given the following:

 

2a) You use an Elemental Control for its eyes. This enables it to use any beam at any time without consuming the entirety of the framework. Additionally, if one slot is suppressed, all slots are suppressed, which makes sense in a weird way. However, if you make its powers Inherent, the point is moot.

 

2b) Now it can fire everything as it needs to; forget Duplication. SPD, SPD, SPD. Specifically, "Extra SPD, only to use Elemental Control, -1" so it can freely 'abort' to an eye stalk for defense, or fire off an attack (death ray, etc.) when the need arises.

 

2c) Finally, give it Lightning Reflexes with its Elemental Control, to represent not only is it hyper aware (360o sight, etc.) it's also a natural creature. It can fire eye beams as easily as you or I blink. Mind you; it only needs enough Lightning Reflexes to be faster-than-the-fastest. After that it doesn't matter. But it most assuredly should have them.

 

With that combination, you can adjust as necessary. Want people to get mulched? 12 SPD, the Beholder only has a SPD 3 on its own (taking its own actions on 4/8/12) but it can abort, eyestalk, whatever, anywhere in between. I may put a build together and post it later, but I can barely reply to email these days, so no promises.

[Lucius]

Re: Beholder

 

So as long as we're talking about the matter....

 

What, exactly, IS a Beholder, as you (plural) concieve of it? What is core to the concept of the monster?

 

I don't mean the laundry list of powers it has in D&D, or the mechanics of how those work. I have that data now, and I'm not completely happy with it. I want to re-imagine the Beholder.

 

So - what does a Beholder need to really be a Beholder?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests a lot of eyes.

[Markdoc]

Re: Beholder

 

So as long as we're talking about the matter....

 

What, exactly, IS a Beholder, as you (plural) concieve of it? What is core to the concept of the monster?

 

I don't mean the laundry list of powers it has in D&D, or the mechanics of how those work. I have that data now, and I'm not completely happy with it. I want to re-imagine the Beholder.

 

So - what does a Beholder need to really be a Beholder?

 

It's giant floating eyeball of zappy death and pain. Take that away and you have something else. As Tood Lockwood (the guy responsible for the current visual design) put it "It used to be this vaguely ridiculous soccerball with penis-like tentacles". Over the years, the beholder has gotten bigger, bitier, spikier and a trifle more emo.

 

But that's basically all just chrome. It's such an iconic, yet simple monster that I don't think you can really re-imagine it in any significant way.

 

cheers, Mark

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Beholder

 

It... um.

 

Beholds things. With its eyes. It went from 'somewhat dangerous dungeon monster' to 'oh noes! teh bossz0rz!@#!!!!' Really, the question is, "What do you want to imagine it too?" and then roll forward. Me?

 

I imagine a big floating eyeball with insane amounts of SPD and Lightning Reflexes full of spikey painful emo eye ray death. But really. Floating eyeball. It's iconic, not much else I would really try to do with it without going all 'Doctor Who' on everyone.

[Gary]

Re: Beholder

 

The Beholder is perfect for the Rate of Fire advantage that I designed.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39488

 

New Advantage

 

Rate of Fire (+1/4, +1/2, or +1)

 

An attack that purchases this Advantage must roll 1 die that is of different color than the other 3 dice in an attack roll. Ths 4th die is not counted in the attack roll, but is solely used to determine whether the character can attack again. If that die roll is less than or equal to the Rate of Fire level, the attacker can attack again with no loss in attacking ability. End is expended once per shot made.

 

Rate of Fire 1 is a +1/4 advantage, ROF 2 is a +1/2 advantage, and ROF 3 is a +1 advantage. There is no additional cost for Reduced End as there would be for Autofire.

 

If ROF is used for a nonstandard attack such as Ego Attack or NND, the ROF number is reduced by 1 for that shot. IE, a character paying +1 for ROF 3 would only get to attack again if he rolls a 1 or 2 on the colored die when using a NND.

 

Example:

The 100 handed ones in Greek Myth have the potential to hit a target 100 times in a phase. However, that many hands seriously interfere with each other and any given phase might have varying amounts of hands in position to make an effective attack on a man sized target. They purchase +8d6 HA ROF 3 (+1) HA (-1/2) for a total of 53 pts. After adding Str, the 100 handed one can make a 16d6 attack. If he rolls 3 or less on the colored die, he can continue to keep attacking until he finally makes an attack roll with a 4-6 on the colored die.

 

If a character has purchased multiple attacks with ROF, even if they're in a Multipower or EC, he may switch attacks with a successful ROF.

 

Example:

A Beholder has 10 attacks in a multipower, each with ROF 2 for a +1/2 Advantage. However, it's fairly difficult for it to hit a single target with all its eyes due to the eyestalks interfering with each other. But it can potentially (although highly unlikely) hit a target 10 times in the same phase.

 

If its attack roll results in a 1-2 with the colored die, the beholder can attack again, and even use another attack slot in its multipower that has purchased this advantage at level 2 or 3. Note that the beholder cannot "downgrade". If it uses a ROF 2 attack, it cannot later switch to a ROF 1 attack even if it rolled a 1 on the colored die. If the Beholder chooses to use a nonstandard attack eyestalk, he still pays for ROF 2, but only gets an additional attack of a 1 is rolled on the colored die.

 

A GM is free to put a logical limit in the total number of attacks made, such as limiting the beholder to 10 attacks.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Beholder

 

That's an interesting Advantage. Hypothetically speaking, what would the value be for Rate of Fire 4? Or 5?

 

Rate of Fire 6 would essentially be +infinity (though maybe a bit less if the power still costs END).

 

RoF 4 could be +2, and RoF 5 could be +4, I guess.

[Gary]

Re: Beholder

 

ROF 1 averages 1.2 shots

ROF 2 averages 1.5 shots

ROF 3 averages 2 shots

ROF 4 averages 3 shots

ROF 5 averages 6 shots

 

I'd say ROF 4 would be a +2 Advantage and ROF 5 would be a +5 Advantage, if you allow it at all. I wouldn't recomment anything above 3 since it can bog the game down and be potentially highly unbalancing, especially for stuff like Drains, NNDs, and Ego Attacks.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Beholder

 

But can I make ROF Ablative?

 

So, frex, I start at ROF 5 (for a +Silly). If I roll a 5 or 6, it ticks down one. This would allow for higher values and retain an 'off' function. Of course, the GM can dissalow that...

 

Personally, I don't see this being significantly more advantageous than Autofire, unless one were to stack the AF advantage with the ROF advantage. It's an interesting simulation piece, but also seems to go against the 'core' of HERO, in terms of 'one attack per person per phase,' barring Duplication.

[Gary]

Re: Beholder

 

Autofire doesn't allow you to switch between different attacks with multiple shots, especially different attacks in the same multipower.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Beholder

 

Autofire doesn't allow you to switch between different attacks with multiple shots' date=' especially different attacks in the same multipower.[/quote']

 

Right. That wasn't the nature of the question:

 

Can someone stack both Autofire 5 (+1/2) and ROF 3 (+1/2) on the same power? That's what I was asking. As well as whether you can make it Ablative.

 

Although, I'm not certain why you wouldn't make this a variation on Duplication, a second 'you,' capable of making follow-up attacks on an Activation Roll. Kludgey.

 

But legal.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Beholder

 

Right. That wasn't the nature of the question:

 

Can someone stack both Autofire 5 (+1/2) and ROF 3 (+1/2) on the same power? That's what I was asking. As well as whether you can make it Ablative.

 

Although, I'm not certain why you wouldn't make this a variation on Duplication, a second 'you,' capable of making follow-up attacks on an Activation Roll. Kludgey.

 

But legal.

 

I think the point of ROF is to be a replacement to the standard Autofire rules.

 

Asking how the replacement stacks with the original is besides the point.

[Lucius]

Eye - conic Monster

 

It... um.

 

Beholds things. With its eyes.

 

Does it? Really?

 

One thing that strikes me is that, for all that it's "eye-conic" appearance is as a giant floating eyeball with another ten eyes on stalks, and the very name is "Beholder" - there is almost nothing said about its ability to "behold" things per se.

 

The existence of a crown of eyes suggests that it can see in all directions (except maybe underneath itself) - but was that even explicitly stated in the Monter Manual? I'm sure it had infravision, but so did everything else in the Monster Manual.

 

Unless I misremember, it had no more ability to do things like see the invisible or find hidden doors or resist illusions than anything else of the same hit dice and INT. I don't recall clairvoyance or True Sight or any other abilities that actually related to the idea of being a big floating set of eyes.

 

As Markdoc puts it

 

It's giant floating eyeball of zappy death and pain. Take that away and you have something else.

 

But I can't help thinking it could almost as well have been a giant floating toenail of zappy death and pain, or a giant floating earlobe of zappy death and pain.

 

To clarify - I think the IDEA of the Beholder, the way it is perceived and thought of, is a "giant floating eyeball." It's something right out of Nightmare (I imagine that's where Gygax got the idea, actually.) But the way it's actually been written up is all about "zappy death and pain."

 

And I do agree that if you took out the zappy death and pain, it's not the same monster. It's not just a Nightmare about being seen, it's the Nightmare that finds you and then hurts you.

 

 

One thing I'm hearing from both Tesuji and Thia Halmades is that the reason the Beholder is such a big, scary monster is that it not only has a wide array of powers to unleash against player characters, but it can use many if not all of them more or less simultaneously.

 

Does anyone else want to comment on that, for or against? How important is it to your concept of a Beholder that it can use all of its eye powers more or less at once?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that several points were addressed in the thread Gary started to discuss his new Advantage.

[Markdoc]

Re: Eye - conic Monster

 

The existence of a crown of eyes suggests that it can see in all directions (except maybe underneath itself) - but was that even explicitly stated in the Monter Manual? I'm sure it had infravision' date=' but so did everything else in the Monster Manual.[/quote']

 

The Beholder did have some specific vision powers (see invisible, see ethereal, etc, IIRC). I dunno if the current version does, but I assume so - like Superman, it tends to accumulate extra powers over time. Also the original beholder specifically had arcs of sight for some eyes and you could "hide" from it underneath where it couldn't see.

 

To clarify - I think the IDEA of the Beholder, the way it is perceived and thought of, is a "giant floating eyeball." It's something right out of Nightmare (I imagine that's where Gygax got the idea, actually.) But the way it's actually been written up is all about "zappy death and pain."

 

And I do agree that if you took out the zappy death and pain, it's not the same monster. It's not just a Nightmare about being seen, it's the Nightmare that finds you and then hurts you.

 

One thing I'm hearing from both Tesuji and Thia Halmades is that the reason the Beholder is such a big, scary monster is that it not only has a wide array of powers to unleash against player characters, but it can use many if not all of them more or less simultaneously.

 

Does anyone else want to comment on that, for or against? How important is it to your concept of a Beholder that it can use all of its eye powers more or less at once?

 

I don't think that part is actually important - what is important is that it be able to launch great hurt on a whole party. Even from its earliest incarnations, the Beholder has always been a boss monster: the kind of thing you could throw at a whole party and have them wet themselves. I think the only thing we hated more than Beholders in AD&D were Vampires and higher level Demons/Devils. We'd far rather take on a Dragon than a Beholder, because even though Beholders are (marginally) easier to kill, they could lay out an awesome amount of serious smack in a short period of time, before they went down.

 

To sum up, there are two things that make the Beholder what it is:

1) Giant floating eyeball thang (giant floating toe is interesting, but not really the same - as you note there's a slightly nightmarish "something" about that eye)

2) Zappy death and pain (Speaks for itself, really)

 

The original version was heavily armoured and had a nasty bite, but those aspects could readily be removed without harming the overall image.

 

Personally, if I was building a beholder in Hero, I wouldn't bother with a new advantage, I'd go the Hydra route. Main character: big floating body with central eye. Little duplicates (one per eyestalk) with regeneration from death, no movement, little BOD (and no recombining or sharing Stun/BOD), a dependency on the main Body and one zap power each. That way all of them that can get a line of sight can zap and attackers can lop off individual eyestalks, nullifying that power. That's close to the original concept, too: in AD&D, eyestalks had their own AC and HP and you could lop them off - though they'd grow back in time.

 

cheers, Mark

[Gary]

Re: Beholder

 

Actually, the original version of the Beholder could only fire 1-4 eyestalks at a man sized target per round. I'm not sure about the newer versions.

[Markdoc]

Re: Beholder

 

Actually' date=' the original version of the Beholder could only fire 1-4 eyestalks at a man sized target per round. I'm not sure about the newer versions.[/quote']

 

Yeah. IIRC, that was covered under the limited arc they had. I don't know if that carried over into the newer ones.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Re: Beholder

 

Actually' date=' the original version of the Beholder could only fire 1-4 eyestalks at a man sized target per round. I'm not sure about the newer versions.[/quote']

 

Yes, but it would usually be facing more than one man sized target at a time. The usual party of adventurers would be 4 to 7 or more, and I presume it could attack all of them with some combination of eyes?

 

As for newer versions, one of the sites I found doing a search was this:

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a

 

A beholder rolls two dice for initiative and records both results. On a beholder's initiative count, it can choose to take its normal turn or a special barrage turn. It may take one normal turn per round and one barrage turn per round. On its barrage turn, the beholder may fire its blast ray or telekinesis rays at any target within 60 feet. The beholder fires twice, using either ray for each shot. It may fire at the same or a different target. The beholder cannot take any other actions on its barrage turn except to delay.

 

Which suggests that if it used to be able to use all 10 eyes in one round, that's no longer the case.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Creator of the palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Beholder

 

BEHOLD!

 

The Beholders!

 

[ATTACH]30733[/ATTACH][ATTACH]30734[/ATTACH][ATTACH]30735[/ATTACH][ATTACH]30736[/ATTACH][ATTACH]30737[/ATTACH]

[Curufea]

Re: Beholder

 

Bob the beholder. (NSFW)

[Lucius]

Re: Beholder

 

Order of the Stick-it-to-the-Wizards Beholder

 

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html

[Gary]

Re: Beholder

 

I just checked my copy of the Monster Manual 3.5. Beholders can use 3 eyestalks in any 90 degree arc. They could potentially use all 10 eyestalks if completely surrounded by foes.