Immunity to Electric Attacks

[tarragon]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

What if we based it on Desolidification with applicable Modifiers' date=' plus a Naked [i']Affects Physical World[/i] Advantage that applies to attack powers at a game's AP limit.

 

I'm a big fan of the Fantasy Hero Absolute Effect rules. The cost of invulnerability is dependent on the DCs you expect to be facing. This is similar in that the cost is dependent on the campaign DC limits with is related to the DCs you expect to be facing.

 

My biggest problem with pricing kind of invulnerability is that within some kind of range it's cost should be dependent on the points available for character creation. A fixed cost invulnerability that is expensive and rare at heroic levels (heavily limited spell perhaps) becomes a keeping up with the joneses power at galactic levels. A variable priced invulnerability, following DC or point limits, becomes a heavily limited spell at heroic and a schtick at galactic levels.

 

-rr

[tarragon]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Even within electrical effects there has to be GM interpretation becasue there are powers that don't logically work against invulnerable to electricity guy.

 

I would write up both Scrambling the Sense Neurons and a Bright Loud Lightning bolt as a Flash with Electrical FX. But I wouldn't let invuln guy be immune the the Flash part of a lightning bolt.

[DocMan]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Which SFX?

 

Vs. Mental Illusions? Vs Mental Powers?

 

Vs. Fire? Vs Heat? Vs temperature extremes? vs Energy?

 

Vs. Pointed Sticks? Vs. Piercing? Vs. Piercing and Slashing? Vs. All Physical Damage?

 

I meant one SFX per character. Not one SFX per game system.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I meant one SFX per character. Not one SFX per game system.

 

So did I. How broad can that "one SFX" be?

[DocMan]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

So did I. How broad can that "one SFX" be?

 

That is a GM call, and should be based on the special effects of the character. It makes no sense for the Human Torch to take damage from fire or heat effects, or for living lightning to take damage from electrical attacks. The game rules shouldn't absolve the player from having to justify why his character has a given power.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

That is a GM call' date=' and should be based on the special effects of the character. It makes no sense for the Human Torch to take damage from fire or heat effects, or for living lightning to take damage from electrical attacks. The game rules shouldn't absolve the player from having to justify why his character has a given power.[/quote']

 

In that case, we need variant prices, since it would be unfair to be immune to all physical damage, and a second to be immune to laser beams, for the same price (presuming that they are not equally common, which would be the case in most games).

 

Given we need to price out the various levels of frequency of the SFX, why not include prices for all such frequencies and let the gamers decide how these tools may be used in their games?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I'm a big fan of the Fantasy Hero Absolute Effect rules. The cost of invulnerability is dependent on the DCs you expect to be facing. This is similar in that the cost is dependent on the campaign DC limits with is related to the DCs you expect to be facing.

 

My biggest problem with pricing kind of invulnerability is that within some kind of range it's cost should be dependent on the points available for character creation. A fixed cost invulnerability that is expensive and rare at heroic levels (heavily limited spell perhaps) becomes a keeping up with the joneses power at galactic levels. A variable priced invulnerability, following DC or point limits, becomes a heavily limited spell at heroic and a schtick at galactic levels.

 

So going back the other way, should Desolidification (which does provide some absolute invulnerability in a sense) be priced based on a game's DC/AP limits, or is it okay like it is? I tend to think that it is okay like it is because IMX not only do the size of the powers increase in a high-level game, but the breadth of powers does as well, so there is more likely to be a character with a power that can deal with a particular problem. In a high-powered enough game, there's bound to be someone who can dispel an effect, bypass a particular kind of defence, use at least a small VPP to produce a versatile solution, use a power with Variable Special Effects to find and utilize a target's weakness, etc.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

That is a GM call, and should be based on the special effects of the character. It makes no sense for the Human Torch to take damage from fire or heat effects, or for living lightning to take damage from electrical attacks. The game rules shouldn't absolve the player from having to justify why his character has a given power.

 

Doc

 

I don't know why people think this. The Human Torch has a temperature, which is obvious because he has a color. (typically red) If he is hit with something of even higher temperature, there is no reason why you shouldn't expect him to be burned, possibly even killed by it.

 

Just because you're made of something doesn't mean you're immune to it.

 

A dust devil is not immune to a tornado.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

What is it you are 'immune' to if you are immune to electricity? Electricity can burn you, so are you immune to heat too? Electricity can interfere with your nervous system, so if you have a fibre optic nervous system instead, you're immune? Well, you might be to some effects but even then it is probably a matter of degree - use enough electricity and it can arc through almost anything.

 

The single biggest problem with modeling 'immunity' in the Hero system is the killing attack mechanic. Realistically if you have 50 ED, you are 'invulnerable' to energy attacks in a broad range of games, but not if you use the KA mechanic, which can easily exceed that defence total with alarming regularity.

 

Buy decent energy defence (possibly limited to electricity only), some power defence (same limitation) and LS: Electricity to cover NND attacks and you are golden. A GM would have to be a total dork to deliberately build an electricity attack that circumvented Conductor's electricity defences.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I don't know why people think this. The Human Torch has a temperature' date=' which is obvious because he has a color. (typically red) If he is hit with something of even higher temperature, there is no reason why you shouldn't expect him to be burned, possibly even killed by it.[/quote']

 

In fact, in the old FF annual that brought back the Golden Age Torch, The FF Torch WAS burned because the older, more experienced Torch could burn hot enough to do so.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Buy decent energy defense (possibly limited to electricity only), some power defense (same limitation) and LS: Electricity to cover NND attacks and you are golden. A GM would have to be a total dork to deliberately build an electricity attack that circumvented Conductor's electricity defenses.

 

And some Flash Defense (selectively interfering with sensory nerves), and some Mental Defense (Electrically overriding control of the nerves) and I guess some extra Str (or Con?) for those Tasers built as Entangles. Saying "those effects don't make sense" doesn't really negate issue. It varies from campaign to campaign and I've seen those and similar effects in various source material. Aside from KA mechanic (which I agree is major stumbling block to Invulnerability or even just the classic Bullet Bouncing Brick) is that variety of effects in Hero and how they can be built so covering all your bases can be take up a sizable chunk of points for results that might be worth the points in play.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

And some Flash Defense (selectively interfering with sensory nerves)' date=' and some Mental Defense (Electrically overriding control of the nerves) and I guess some extra Str (or Con?) for those Tasers built as Entangles. Saying "those effects don't make sense" doesn't really negate issue. It varies from campaign to campaign and I've seen those and similar effects in various source material. Aside from KA mechanic (which I agree is major stumbling block to Invulnerability or even just the classic Bullet Bouncing Brick) is that variety of effects in Hero and how they can be built so covering all your bases can be take up a sizable chunk of points for results that might be worth the points in play.[/quote']

 

There are indeed a plethora of interesting ways you can build effects, but you also have to assume that the GM is not the enemy. If he is you are doomed anyway.

 

I personally wouldn't build a taser with 'entangle' because I don't think the mechanic is a good fit, but if I did, I'd include a limitation that it was ineffective against targets with a certain amount of resistant ED. I wouldn't build electricity overriding nerves as a mind control unless I added 'based on CON' and Defence = ED. The flash should again take a 'not v high rED' limitation.

 

If I was GMing a game and I'd slipped and ElectoLass was hit with something I'd built that she was defenceless against and had the 'electricity' sfx, I'd fluff it and re-write the attack later. I'd obviously meant to do it differently and she shouldn't suffer as a result.

 

The only reason you 'need' an immunity power is a Dork GM, but there is absolutely no defence against a Dork GM. You introduce Immunity to Electricity as a 30 point power and DGM will hit you with 'antielectricity' - like electricity but you're not immune to it.

 

Well I say no defence - you can always vote with your feet.

[JmOz]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

 

 

...is that variety of effects in Hero and how they can be built so covering all your bases can be take up a sizable chunk of points for results that might be worth the points in play.

 

Which is why I like the idea of the universal defence power I mentioned earlier...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

If we really want to start talking about how electricity interacts with nerves and flesh and stuff like that, maybe we're in a game where "immunity" isn't appropriate. But a lot of the time we're talking comic book/metaphysical world mechanics, not scientific ones. A being "made of electricity" is immune to electricity because that is the particular mythology we are basing our game world on. It's that simple.

 

So let's go back to our usual approach of dropping whether a construct is "realistic" or "physically accurate" and instead concentrate of the "how to build" given the assumption that SOMEONE actually WANTS this in their game. Otherwise we wouldn't even have this thread, eh?

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

There are indeed a plethora of interesting ways you can build effects, but you also have to assume that the GM is not the enemy. If he is you are doomed anyway.

 

I'm not assuming the "GM is the enemy". I simply think that methods requires and uncomfortable level of handwavium, specfically assuming the charcter has an infinite (or exceptionally large) amount of defense they don't have because there isn't a simple means to represent "immunity" in the game. It seems a little counter to Hero's "You get what you pay for (with small excepions" style. It's also a bit non intuitive particularly to newbies which is way this question keeps coming up.

 

I mean what happens if someone else get marginally less than "magical" immunity amount of defense or just forgets to mention they want to be "Immune" Do they get free Power, Mental, Flash, etc defense too?

 

The only reason you 'need' an immunity power is a Dork GM, but there is absolutely no defence against a Dork GM.

 

Or a GM with different mode of play who thinks blanket immunity should 1 Have a default pricing scheme and 2. Not require allot of handwaving and exception based ruling.

 

A Power for it will not be perfect. There will always been fringe cases that will require GM interpretation such as the like Immunity to Ice man and being frozen in a block of ice but I think it would be more consistent that many of the kludges you have to use now.

 

Many people complain that Immunity could be abused (and it can) but seem unwilling to just say no abusive builds with it yet perfectly willing to rule away the mechanical holes and issues with the kludges.

 

You introduce Immunity to Electricity as a 30 point power and DGM will hit you with 'antielectricity' - like electricity but you're not immune to it.

 

Well, theoretically you can do that already. IIRC, there's Advantage in the Ultimate Energy Blaster that allows a power to act a more than one SFX either the best or worst one for the target. But yes, it would be antgonistic to that old the time but that doesn't mean anyone the feel the ability needs more structure thinks that way or is going to be jackass otherwise.

 

Which is why I like the idea of the universal defence power I mentioned earlier...

 

Yep, I've been supporting the idea of a sfx broad "Immunity" power.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

If we really want to start talking about how electricity interacts with nerves and flesh and stuff like that, maybe we're in a game where "immunity" isn't appropriate. But a lot of the time we're talking comic book/metaphysical world mechanics, not scientific ones. A being "made of electricity" is immune to electricity because that is the particular mythology we are basing our game world on. It's that simple.

 

So let's go back to our usual approach of dropping whether a construct is "realistic" or "physically accurate" and instead concentrate of the "how to build" given the assumption that SOMEONE actually WANTS this in their game. Otherwise we wouldn't even have this thread, eh?

 

I agree with this as well. What's "realistic" in one setting has no bearing on what the game should or should not try to model.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

If you invoke what is and is not appropriate to the setting then I offer this:

 

The only reason you would really need a mechanism for immunity to X is if a player character wanted it.

 

If an NPC or villain had it, the GM wouldn't need to stat it out. GM fiat - done.

 

So, if a PC wants immunity to X, then no NPC or villain in the entirety of the multiverse can ever affect that PC with X. For a fixed amount of points. That restricts the GM, as no future NPC or villain can ever exceed the PC in X. The best any NPC or villain (or other PC) can ever manage is to equal that PC in X.

 

This argument is less valid if said PC is a multiverse-scale god.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I'm not assuming the "GM is the enemy". I simply think that methods requires and uncomfortable level of handwavium, specfically assuming the charcter has an infinite (or exceptionally large) amount of defense they don't have because there isn't a simple means to represent "immunity" in the game. It seems a little counter to Hero's "You get what you pay for (with small excepions" style. It's also a bit non intuitive particularly to newbies which is way this question keeps coming up.

 

I mean what happens if someone else get marginally less than "magical" immunity amount of defense or just forgets to mention they want to be "Immune" Do they get free Power, Mental, Flash, etc defense too?

 

 

 

Or a GM with different mode of play who thinks blanket immunity should 1 Have a default pricing scheme and 2. Not require allot of handwaving and exception based ruling.

 

A Power for it will not be perfect. There will always been fringe cases that will require GM interpretation such as the like Immunity to Ice man and being frozen in a block of ice but I think it would be more consistent that many of the kludges you have to use now.

 

Many people complain that Immunity could be abused (and it can) but seem unwilling to just say no abusive builds with it yet perfectly willing to rule away the mechanical holes and issues with the kludges.

 

 

 

 

Well first off every 'fix' for immunity I've seen involves a lot of handwavium, from modified desolid (and it's still handwavium even if it is in the rule book) to costing a specific 'immunity' power. The basis of my thesis is that we don't need it.

 

1. You don't need an unfeasably large amount of defence: +30 ED (10 resistant) and 15 PowDEF (electricity only -2) should do it for most purposes for 17 points, assuming you already have campaign appropriate defences for everything else.

 

2. I'm advocating intelligent design. Just because you can build an attack with AVLD (Touch Flash) and Penetrating and CALL it an electric attack (it numbs the nerves) doesn't mean that's a good way to build the attack. Actually I've never thought of a sensible use for penetrating. If the attack uses electricity then it is not going to get through high energy defences. It is not a special sort of electricity, don't build an electricity attack as if it is.

 

That's not handwaving anything, it is just setting ground rules. We often seem utterly terrified of doing anything that is going to limit our creativity but in my experience a few guidelines not only make a campaign more coherent but that coherency makes the whole experience more enjoyable.

 

I don't much care about 'immunity' or anything else being abused - that is what GMs are for (not the Dork kind), but I doubt costing it will every be anything but an excercise in futility except for a particular point total of game.

 

Can you actually think of any examples of 'invulnerability' or 'immunity' in the source material? I do recall Rogue of the X-Men claiming that she was invulnerable just before Viper nearly burned a hole right through her with a blaster pistol.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I gave a PC invulnerability once. He was given a sort of tabard made from the skin of a dead god and nothing that hit it hurt him (basically on 11- he ignored the hit). He was already a pretty tough brick and nothing much hurt him anyway. It was fine. I completely handwaved it as I was handing out goodies to everyone, and it worked fine because I knew two things.

 

I knew how my universe worked.

 

I knew that something had killed that god, and skinned it

 

 

Ultimately poionts are a balancing mechanism but not the only or necessarily the best one. If you want immunity in your game, go for it. I just don;t believe the system needs it.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Well first off every 'fix' for immunity I've seen involves a lot of handwavium, from modified desolid (and it's still handwavium even if it is in the rule book) to costing a specific 'immunity' power. The basis of my thesis is that we don't need it.

 

I know. That's the problem.

 

1. You don't need an unfeasably large amount of defence: +30 ED (10 resistant) and 15 PowDEF (electricity only -2) should do it for most purposes for 17 points, assuming you already have campaign appropriate defences for everything else.

 

This is strictly campaign and character design dependent. I don't know where you're getting your figure from but +30 Def and only 10 resistant wouldn't make you anything near "Invulnerable" to a special effect. And I don't think Electricity only is -2 Limitation, the equivalent of No Conscious Control. This has been my experience, different from yours. It doesn't make one of us wrong.

 

2. I'm advocating intelligent design. Just because you can build an attack with AVLD (Touch Flash) and Penetrating and CALL it an electric attack (it numbs the nerves) doesn't mean that's a good way to build the attack.

 

It doesn't mean it's a bad way either. That's an opinion. One man's "intelligent design" is another person's faulty build. Hero doesn't have "official" builds. Even Steve Long doesn't claim his write up are the one true way and I don't agree with many of them. There's a reason most of these "How to Build" threads are more than three posts long. Everyone has opinions on the best way to do things.

 

That's not handwaving anything, it is just setting ground rules.

 

It's a completely arbitrary decision that based on a particular GM's style and mood with nothing really codified about it. Seems like handwavium to me. Handwavium isn't a bad thing by definition but IMO something more solid work at least so the question about how to do it could be answered with more than "Make stuff up"

 

We often seem utterly terrified of doing anything that is going to limit our creativity but in my experience a few guidelines not only make a campaign more coherent but that coherency makes the whole experience more enjoyable.

 

That's what I and some others are suggesting. A codified power that describes in mechanical terms being "Invulnerable" to a specific special effect to give it some coherence so one character isn't using the "Desolid" Kludge, another using the DR Kludge or are arbitrary of Defense is selected that to mean you are not invulnerable to everything of that special effect. What if a player gets the magic number in PD or ED with no limitation? Would that mean they're totally immune to anything with Physical or Energy sfx? The character that got it cheaper thanks to a Limitation is after all

 

I don't much care about 'immunity' or anything else being abused - that is what GMs are for (not the Dork kind), but I doubt costing it will every be anything but an exercise in futility except for a particular point total of game. How doe

 

Can you actually think of any examples of 'invulnerability' or 'immunity' in the source material?

 

Which source material? The entire library of cinematic fiction and literature? Hero System is more than comic books at least in its current incarnation. IN some horror stories, for example Vampire ARE totally invulnerable to anything but their banes as are Lycanthropes, some seem to be immaterial to the attack completely or at best the force of them might knock them over if powerful enough but doesn't hurt them in slightest.

 

There have been some character in comics that were Invulnerable to something or other and either hurt by something else or had their power circumvented or nullified in some fashion not just brute forced through Dragonball Z. Finding the Macguffin to break the mega villain's invulnerability defense is a plot so common its almost cliche.

 

Because one person doesn't think it's feasible or would never use it, doesn't mean others don't want it or use it. Too many game systems both superheroic and others have mechanic for it, too many ask about it. As evidence I offer this and every others thread that asks "How do I do Invulnerability?"

 

Most of the complaints against it seem to boil down too. "I wouldn't use it because I don't like the idea of an absolute (though Hero has them already) or Invulnerability (Though Hero has them in sense) so no one can. " You don't (and, IMO shouldn't) use everything in the books in every game but I think having a defined mechanic for this sort of thing is a reasonable took to put in the box

 

And I have mentioned that costing it could be tricky but I don't feel that should be deterrent to even trying.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Ultimately points are a balancing mechanism but not the only or necessarily the best one. If you want immunity in your game, go for it. I just don;t believe the system needs it.

 

Obviously I and others disagree but even if it is included in the system. You don't have to use it. It just makes things simpler for those of us that do. (Gah, this is starting to feel like the Comeliness debate!) I've chucked out allot of the rules for mental powers that felt off for me. Doing that doesn't make me a Power gamer or "Dork" of a GM. Having some rules for something doesn't mean you can't handwave it it means you have an option besides that if you want or need one. In one campaign I regularly hand out powers to the PC without even bothering to cost them out let alone charge for them but that doesn't mean I don't ever need the character generation or power creation rules.

 

Otherwise I'd be playing something like Capes or Wushu.

 

And I'm done. This is just going in circles at this point.

[JmOz]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Obviously I and others disagree but even if it is included in the system. You don't have to use it. It just makes things simpler for those of us that do. (Gah, this is starting to feel like the Comeliness debate!) I've chucked out allot of the rules for mental powers that felt off for me. Doing that doesn't make me a Power gamer or "Dork" of a GM. Having some rules for something doesn't mean you can't handwave it it means you have an option besides that if you want or need one. In one campaign I regularly hand out powers to the PC without even bothering to cost them out let alone charge for them but that doesn't mean I don't ever need the character generation or power creation rules.

 

Otherwise I'd be playing something like Capes or Wushu.

 

And I'm done. This is just going in circles at this point.

 

 

One thing you mention in passing I hope becomes more official is the idea that somethings are different settings, like mental powers, the whole class of mind thing for instance works for some games and not for others, things like that I think should be clearly marked as "Here are a few options for you to consider doing"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

We are going round in circles, but let me explain why I chose +30 ED (10 resistant). This assumes you have normal defences as well, so in a 12d6 campaign, I'd expect around 24 ED/12 resistant, so the additional specialist defences take you to 54 ED/22 resistant against electricity - which is pretty close to immunity if you are expecting 12d6 attacks.

 

As to the -2 for only v electricity, that is a judgement call but one based on the fact that there are a lot of energy types and electricity is certainly not the most common.

 

Electricity in most games comes up far less than half the energy attacks, so it has to be a 'better' limitation than -1.

 

There is a law of diminishing returns on limitations too: -1 on a 60 point power saves you 30 points, bump that to -2 and you only save an additional 10 points.

 

If electricity only more than halves the utility, you only have two options available: -1 1/2 and -2.

 

Anyway, that's what passes for logic in this neck of the woods.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Desolidification could be a decent kludge with a just few nudges such as taking Limitations like Does not Protect from Damage or only protects from one SFX negates the requirement to get Affects Real World on Attacks or other powers. Most forms would have "Cannot pass through Solid Matter". 0 Endurance, Persist possible Inherent could be used. The issue of conductivity (does the attack pass through the target or not) would be a matter of sfx. When I get the chance I'll run the numbers.

[mattingly]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

The total cheese way to do it:

 

EB 1d6 (vs. ED: electrical), Variable Special Effects (any electrical effect, +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4)