Immunity to Electric Attacks

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Building a defence that catastrophically fails under excess load. You've got a nasty streak' date=' Doc.[/quote']

 

I got the idea from your suggestions for killing attack and resistant defence.

 

Prophylactica appeared to be taking Ohm's electrical lashing comfortably until he made one final titanic effort to overload her and with a bubbling hiss her rubber costume seemed to virtually evaporate' date=' revealing that she did, indeed, shop at Victoria's Secret. Ohm advanced on her prostrate form, presumably to check her labels...[/i']

 

I think that this could go uncommented....

[Alibear]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Me laughed.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Honestly...I rarely build a completely immune character. I'm building an electrically resistant character and will probably just use a combination of resistant ED and some Damage Reduction to simulate it. You have the extra ED to cover damage and the Damage Reduction to cover the exotic attacks. There...done. Not sure where the -2 is coming from though. All the official writeups for resistant electrical characters(or fire..what have you) list the limitation as -1/2.

 

Rob

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Honestly...I rarely build a completely immune character. I'm building an electrically resistant character and will probably just use a combination of resistant ED and some Damage Reduction to simulate it. You have the extra ED to cover damage and the Damage Reduction to cover the exotic attacks. There...done. Not sure where the -2 is coming from though. All the official writeups for resistant electrical characters(or fire..what have you) list the limitation as -1/2.

 

All official writeups, and the official -1/2 limitation, are assinine. Damage Reduction against all energy defense is worth considerably more than a 50%premium over damage reduction versus electricity only. Therefore, restricting it to Electricity Only should be a limitation far greater than -1/2.

 

If "only vs electrictity" is -1/2, then "not vs electricity" should be what, -2? 60 points with a -1/2 limitation = 40 and 60 with a -2 = 20. Add those together, and we get defenses that work vs all energy attacks, which costs 60, so the two should sum up close, if not exactly equal.

[Split Decision]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

All official writeups' date=' and the official -1/2 limitation, are assinine. Damage Reduction against all energy defense is worth considerably more than a 50%premium over damage reduction versus electricity only. Therefore, restricting it to Electricity Only should be a limitation far greater than -1/2.[/quote']

 

 

Agreed. Probably -1 to -2 depending upon how exotic the type of energy is.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Honestly...I rarely build a completely immune character. I'm building an electrically resistant character and will probably just use a combination of resistant ED and some Damage Reduction to simulate it. You have the extra ED to cover damage and the Damage Reduction to cover the exotic attacks. There...done. Not sure where the -2 is coming from though. All the official writeups for resistant electrical characters(or fire..what have you) list the limitation as -1/2.

 

Rob

 

 

I was running a game recently with campaign average damages of around 8-9 DC - not much more than that for 'general' attacks, and one character - Spitfire - was supposed to be massively resistant to energy damage, so I gave her 32 ED (22 from a force field) so she should have been virtually immune to energy int he campaign. She gets hit with a 3d6 RKA which rolls 15 (x5) and she takes 43 through defences - enough, as it happens to both stun her and put her at -12 stun. Nasty.

 

Had I spent those points on damage reduction instead she might have been a bit better off on the stun (50% energy damage reduction, costs END = 20 points): she'd have taken 37 stun (27 taking into account her base ED if there was any resistant defence there at all. Still stunned but at least not unconscious).

 

That was a comparatively low point campaign and I could not really justify the cost of both high defences and damage reduction (the energy 'immunity' was more general), but it does illustrate just how hard 'genuine' immunity is to accomplish in Hero.

 

As to the -1/2 for 'only v electricity' - what Hugh said

 

I don't get the limitation values sometimes: I'd make 'Only v Fire/Heat' a -1 as that is probably the most common energy sfx and often appears environmentally (especially after superhero battles have started), and I'd make everything else proportional. A -1 means that it is only going to be useful about half the time and, even though fire is common, it doesn't come up every other energy attack. I think -2 for electricity is about right but - just to be clear - that is entirely my own suggestion, and you are quite right that the rules as written take a different view.

[Marcus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

All official writeups, and the official -1/2 limitation, are assinine. Damage Reduction against all energy defense is worth considerably more than a 50%premium over damage reduction versus electricity only. Therefore, restricting it to Electricity Only should be a limitation far greater than -1/2.

 

If "only vs electrictity" is -1/2, then "not vs electricity" should be what, -2? 60 points with a -1/2 limitation = 40 and 60 with a -2 = 20. Add those together, and we get defenses that work vs all energy attacks, which costs 60, so the two should sum up close, if not exactly equal.

 

You must spread some around...

[BNakagawa]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

You know what works really well against most attacks?

 

+10 DCV only vs electrical attacks. (50 active, real cost dependent on the relative frequency of electrical attacks in your campaign world)

[Alibear]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Area of Effect?

[tarragon]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

If "only vs electrictity" is -1/2, then "not vs electricity" should be what, -2? 60 points with a -1/2 limitation = 40 and 60 with a -2 = 20. Add those together, and we get defenses that work vs all energy attacks, which costs 60, so the two should sum up close, if not exactly equal.

 

I agree that -1/2 is to low for Electricity Only. But I do not agree with the premise that that Only vs X and Not vs X should be mirror imaged prices for defenses.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I agree that -1/2 is to low for Electricity Only. But I do not agree with the premise that that Only vs X and Not vs X should be mirror imaged prices for defenses.

 

Maybe not mirror exactly, but they should be close: 'only works against women' should be -1 and so should 'only works against men': each halves the cost of the power, together they make the 'full' power.

 

Hmm. Well they do for Mind Control. Less so for Energy Blast. Interesting that the same limitation can have quite radically different effects depending on which power it is applied to...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I agree that -1/2 is to low for Electricity Only. But I do not agree with the premise that that Only vs X and Not vs X should be mirror imaged prices for defenses.

 

Why do you not agree? Tell me why buying +15 ED only vs Electricity and +15 ED, not vs Electricity together should cost something other than the 15 point cost to buy +15 ED.

[tarragon]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Why do you not agree? Tell me why buying +15 ED only vs Electricity and +15 ED' date=' not vs Electricity together should cost something other than the 15 point cost to buy +15 ED.[/quote']

 

Because no one ever buys both...

 

I tried to explain this in my previous response and ended up deleting it. I can point out examples that I think don't work but I'm not sure I can explain it beyond the examples.

 

Using your example if a pair of teammates have that pair of electrical defenses the weak to electric character takes one maybe two hits before they swap targets. As a team they are basically as strong as if they we're unlimited. They might even be stronger, Not vs X guy can afford a bit more general defense which is useful against his opponent and Only vs X guy has a ton of extra defense against his dance partner.

 

Also, using your example lets cost it the other way. +15 ED not vs electricity (-1/4) 12 points sounds right to me but +15 ED only vs electricity (-4) 3 points seems way too cheap. But +15 ED not vs electricity is too cheap at +1/2.

 

Another example using Sean's Mind control only vs men or only vs women. In a general situation (assuming a mixed group of opponents) Mind Control only vs men isn't very limiting. Sure, you can't mind control that woman to press the big red button, but you can have the guy next to her do it, and sure you can't mind control that woman to not press the big red button, but you can mind control the guy next to her to grab or shoot her. To me neither is worth -1, because neither is limiting 50% of the time. You are limited to 50% of the potential targets in the world, but that doesn't mean you can only get your goal done only 50% of the time.

 

It gets worse if you mirror them on the same team. If you have a team (or a duplicating Mentalist) where one has only vs men, and the other with only vs women against a mixed group they are much more powerful than if they had only one unlimited mind control. They get more MC attacks and more flexibility because they both have more points to spend. Only in a situation where they are facing a single gender group are they "only" as powerful as a single unlimited Mind Control.

 

I think it basically comes down to, in general use, with a team, these kinds of limitations aren't as fully limiting as they could be. People maneuver to avoid the limiting effects, making it less limiting than it could be. Yes, some of this is the synergy that teams get, but to me it feels like it's too much.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

That's why I favor the very limited Desolidification myself. It can potentially protect against any form of attack that falls under the applicable SFX' date=' no matter what mechanics the attack is built with.[/quote']

 

Unless it had Affects Desolid as an Advantage

 

You know what works really well against most attacks?

 

+10 DCV only vs electrical attacks. (50 active, real cost dependent on the relative frequency of electrical attacks in your campaign world)

 

What about Area of Effect or Damage Shields?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Because no one ever buys both...

 

Sure they do. They don't buy them separately because it's easier to write them down as one unlimited version than two limited versions.

 

Using your example if a pair of teammates have that pair of electrical defenses the weak to electric character takes one maybe two hits before they swap targets. As a team they are basically as strong as if they we're unlimited. They might even be stronger' date=' Not vs X guy can afford a bit more general defense which is useful against his opponent and Only vs X guy has a ton of extra defense against his dance partner.[/quote']

 

You're assuming their opponents, Lightning Lass and Flame Fatale, are stupid enough to let them switch dance partners easily. Even if RubberMan is attacking Lightning Lass and Captain Conductor is attacking Flame Fatale, nothing prevents FF from ignoring CC so she can continue melting RM, while LL shocks CC back to the stone age.

 

The villains can switch targets just as quickly and efficiently as the heroes can. More effectively, in many cases, as the villains tend to start the fight, so they can set the terms of engagement. Try swapping partners when Lightning Lass attacks Captain Conductor at the waterfront and FF attacks Rubberman downtown.

 

Also' date=' using your example lets cost it the other way. +15 ED not vs electricity (-1/4) 12 points sounds right to me but +15 ED only vs electricity (-4) 3 points seems way too cheap. But +15 ED not vs electricity is too cheap at +1/2.[/quote']

 

No, it's too expensive. If electricity only comes up rarely, extra defenses against electricity should not be expensive, just as being undefended against it should not save a ton of points.

 

How many points can I have for 1 1/2 x STUN from electricity, by the way? I'm only saving 3 points to make my defense fail against electricity. If I start with 10 defenses and add 15 not vs electricity, a 12d6 attack will do 42 STUN on average. That's 17 if it's not electrical or 32 if it is. If I instead take 1 1/2 x STUN ves electricity for 10 points, unlimit my ED and buy another 7 points, I get 32 ED. A typical EB will do 10 STUN after my defenses, and an electric one does 31. I'm better off in either case.

 

Another example using Sean's Mind control only vs men or only vs women. In a general situation (assuming a mixed group of opponents) Mind Control only vs men isn't very limiting. Sure' date=' you can't mind control that woman to press the big red button, but you can have the guy next to her do it, and sure you can't mind control that woman to not press the big red button, but you can mind control the guy next to her to grab or shoot her. To me neither is worth -1, because neither is limiting 50% of the time. You are limited to 50% of the potential targets in the world, but that doesn't mean you can only get your goal done only 50% of the time.[/quote']

 

Assuming men/women is exactly 50/50, my power works against half of the available targets and I typically know when it will work (but sometimes not - a good costume, for example). If I instead took a -1 limitation because the power may or may not work, and I can't know whether it will work in advance, I get a 11- Activation - which works 62.5% of the time. "Fails half the time and I never know in advance" is a higher limitation.

 

There's some synergy, sure. But there's also synergy if my character has Darkness vs sight and hearing , and my teammate has Targeting Smell (a situation I've encountered in play). Should we make Darkness more expensive, or make Targetting Smell more expensive? If the team mix changes, does everyone revalue their powers for the new mix?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

A better example might be 'only during daytime' and 'only during nighttime'

 

Incidentally, although a limitation like 'only v women' might well be of minor inconvenience in a target rich environment, if you've got -1 for it then it is up to the GM to make it matter.

 

I've tended to think the scales set by the 'limited power' limitation were the gold standard, but the more I think about it, the less I agree with myself.

 

A power that works 50% of the time is probably far more limiting than half the cost of a power that works all the time. Take, for instance, the OAF limitation. No one really expects to have their access to powers reduced to half the time: you do not get your focus destroyed/stolen every other session BUT the point is that the loss of the focus - when it does happen every 10-12 sessions is catastrophic. You only get to die once*, and losing a major power source, or not having access to it, in a critical battle can cause that to happen.

 

A better scale would probably combine the frequency of loss of a power AND the seriousness of the consequences. Beyond me at this time of night and with this much beer in me, but I'll leave it to bubble in the back brain...

 

 

 

 

*Unless, you know, you have resurrection regeneration or something.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Well, a love spell that only works against half the populace probably isn't very limited unless either: 1.) it is the WRONG half, or B.) you are bisexual. Take that!

 

(So should be being bisexual be a costly Perk or what?)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Well quite

 

That's why a better example to dissect might be 'only works between 6am and 6pm' and 'only works between 6pm and 6am'.

 

They are mutually exclusive with no real overlap. Obviously a character can decide to only superhero during the day (or night, as appropriate) but the villains will soon cotton on.

 

You are getting only half the use from the power, in terms of time so, logically, that is worth -1, but I'm not sure it is as simple as that.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I'm going to disagree with Steve. I don't think a power that allows characters to become immune to a specific sfx would be unbalancing, not gameable or dramatic. Many others game survive with "Absolutes" in place and work just fine. And I don’t think saying something isn't "Absolute" because there is a way around it is exactly accurate. It's Absolute unless its weakness is exploited. Finding the weakness or coming up with tactics to exploit it can be very dramatic and a character that's Invulnerable to Fire or Magic or even broad categories like "energy" isn't necessarily unbeatable due to that alone.

 

Yes many times "absolutes" are beaten but not only by being out powered, many times a weakness is exploited, the power is negated by others means (nothing says you couldn't Dispel, Suppress or Drain whatever the "Invulnerability" power is). And the Power would allow Players and GMs to simulate truly invulnerable to "X" creatures from various settings and games without the price for the effect working out to be more than its utility as sometimes happens with other indirect methods.

 

The real problems come from pricing. Set the cost too low and it becomes to get stacked versions in high point games, set it too high and it will be effectively out of reach in some games. Personally, I've always like the 100 percent Damage Reduction method. The power is already broken into broad categories that could be further limited. There should be some guidelines about the risks of allowing a character to have more than one type that's not limited.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

What about Area of Effect or Damage Shields?

 

I don't care all that much.

 

AE and DS don't do many DC, assuming that active point limitations count for anything. You should be able to shield your character cheaply against AE and DS attacks trivially.

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I don't care all that much.

 

That assumes NPCs are limited to the same Active points caps as PCs (Not a sure assumption, IME), some campaigns also have DCV caps. The Stun Lotto is concern as are advantages like Armor piercing or a power like Entangle (some proposed Taser) or even NND. AE: 1 Hex and Explosion are enough to eliminate the DCV approach and it's only +1/2 advantage. Normal Damage attacks aren't so bad, its the Stun Lotto and exotic effects that cause a problem.

 

You can DFC against it fairly easily but it would seem odd for a character to take a major defensive action against an attack which they are allegedly invulnerable too. Your immunity to electricity also reduced substantially if the character is attacked while stunned, surprised, entangled or other suffering from a reduced DCV and is oddly vulnerable to highly accurate electrical attacks or just being exposed to electricity in ways that DCV wouldn't apply against like deliberately touching a live wire.

 

My point isn't too pick apart your or anyone's ideaa but all the kludges have significant holes in them, IMO that either take handwaving to fill in or will let to some cognitive dissonance when the mechanical results don't match the sfx "I am immune to X". Even the buy enough Defense approach has problems in that you'd have to buy enough to cover ALL applications of the special effect: Adjustment powers, Flashes, Entangles, NNDs, etc. I'd like to see some sort of unified mechanic to make thing simple and straight forward

[Sean Waters]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

I'm going to disagree with Steve. I don't think a power that allows characters to become immune to a specific sfx would be unbalancing, not gameable or dramatic. Many others game survive with "Absolutes" in place and work just fine. And I don’t think saying something isn't "Absolute" because there is a way around it is exactly accurate. It's Absolute unless its weakness is exploited. Finding the weakness or coming up with tactics to exploit it can be very dramatic and a character that's Invulnerable to Fire or Magic or even broad categories like "energy" isn't necessarily unbeatable due to that alone.

 

Yes many times "absolutes" are beaten but not only by being out powered, many times a weakness is exploited, the power is negated by others means (nothing says you couldn't Dispel, Suppress or Drain whatever the "Invulnerability" power is). And the Power would allow Players and GMs to simulate truly invulnerable to "X" creatures from various settings and games without the price for the effect working out to be more than its utility as sometimes happens with other indirect methods.

 

The real problems come from pricing. Set the cost too low and it becomes to get stacked versions in high point games, set it too high and it will be effectively out of reach in some games. Personally, I've always like the 100 percent Damage Reduction method. The power is already broken into broad categories that could be further limited. There should be some guidelines about the risks of allowing a character to have more than one type that's not limited.

 

To my mind, Hero is different from most other games because there are no proscriptive rules as to what you can build with your points. If you allow invulnerability in then it is the thin end of the wedge, and it won't be long before you see characters invulnerable to a wide range of effects: 'my concept is invulnerability'. Oh that's alright then.

 

Mind you, I do not think 'invulnerability' is unplayable, I just don't think it is necessary. I can not think of a single instance of genre 'invulnerability' that can not be explained with high defences. We know what defences cost, and we have no problem working with that. Costing invulnerability is difficult because you either have different costs for different game power levels or you make it a fixed cost power and it becomes a bargain and ubiquitous at higher levels.

 

I'm all for some sort of universal defence mechanism, which allows you to produce 'scaled invulnerability', but as an absolute, I just can't see the need and I've never seen it done in a way I'd want to adopt in a game.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

That assumes NPCs are limited to the same Active points caps as PCs (Not a sure assumption, IME), some campaigns also have DCV caps. The Stun Lotto is concern as are advantages like Armor piercing or a power like Entangle (some proposed Taser) or even NND. AE: 1 Hex and Explosion are enough to eliminate the DCV approach and it's only +1/2 advantage. Normal Damage attacks aren't so bad, its the Stun Lotto and exotic effects that cause a problem.

 

You can DFC against it fairly easily but it would seem odd for a character to take a major defensive action against an attack which they are allegedly invulnerable too. Your immunity to electricity also reduced substantially if the character is attacked while stunned, surprised, entangled or other suffering from a reduced DCV and is oddly vulnerable to highly accurate electrical attacks or just being exposed to electricity in ways that DCV wouldn't apply against like deliberately touching a live wire.

 

My point isn't too pick apart your or anyone's ideaa but all the kludges have significant holes in them, IMO that either take handwaving to fill in or will let to some cognitive dissonance when the mechanical results don't match the sfx "I am immune to X". Even the buy enough Defense approach has problems in that you'd have to buy enough to cover ALL applications of the special effect: Adjustment powers, Flashes, Entangles, NNDs, etc. I'd like to see some sort of unified mechanic to make thing simple and straight forward

 

Fine. Require that ALL electrical powers be built with the limitation -1/4 Does not work against anyone with LS: Immune to electrical powers.

 

Yeah, it's a dumb solution. But given that the game system is not one that dwells on absolutes, it's a dumb request. I mean, what power or construct should allow you to automatically ignore someone else's investment in an electrically based attack power, no matter how many points they spent? It runs entirely contrary to the core tenets of the system. Turn the equation on its head and you could be asking yourself - how do I build an attack that automatically hits and kills the target?

[nexus]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

To my mind, Hero is different from most other games because there are no proscriptive rules as to what you can build with your points. If you allow invulnerability in then it is the thin end of the wedge, and it won't be long before you see characters invulnerable to a wide range of effects: 'my concept is invulnerability'. Oh that's alright then.

 

Well, I think if the concept isn't going to work in the game the GM is planning then they should just say so and work with the player to come up with something that will. The same as any other potentially unbalanced concepts like 'My character can completely stop time." There are games types were a completely invulnerable characters might not be a problem for various reasons.

 

I actually agree that high Defenses cover many aspects of "Invulnerability" but the problem comes from Hero's flexibility interestingly enough. A Special Effect can over many things. Just looking at Electricity it can apply to EB, RKA, Adjustment Powers, Entangles, Flashes, NNDs, etc that can and will bypass normal Defenses making building a character that's Invulnerable to Electricity much more pricey than its probably worth, more complicated and prone to create irritiation if the player forgets an aspect or runs into some unusual application of the sfx.

 

Even the 100 Damage Reduction application falls flat against Entangles and Adjustment powers.

 

I like the suggestions for a Unified Special Effect Defense mechanic that rendered the character flat out invulnerable to a DCs/APs per level. Again though, costing it could be tricky.

 

 

Yeah, it's a dumb solution. But given that the game system is not one that dwells on absolutes, it's a dumb request.

 

Not IMO, for a game the bills itself as a Universal tool kit and being "Invulnerable" to specific SFX isn't even a rare effect across genres. If you can "build any character you can imagine"... Invulnerable to X isn't that hard to imagine.

 

I mean, what power or construct should allow you to automatically ignore someone else's investment in an electrically based attack power, no matter how many points they spent?

 

Desoldification does unless you are vulnerable to it due to sfx or they've purchased a specific Advantage for their Power. That's the reason Desolidification is an Invulnerability kludge. One that falls down because legally you'd have to get all your offensive abilities as Affects Real World and an "Affects Desolidified" Advantage renders you no longer Invulnerable.

 

It runs entirely contrary to the core tenets of the system. Turn the equation on its head and you could be asking yourself - how do I build an attack that automatically hits and kills the target?

 

I think there should be an Advantage the forgoes a normal attack roll similar NND that has some circumstance that stops it cold. You can get AE: 1 Hex Accurate and another 1 point OCV levels to never miss the "Hex" as it stands (But there is the pesky DFC) Building an attack always kills its Target is relatively easy. Design it to do enough Body to kill anyone in the Campaign.

 

I'd prefer to be able to firmly answer questions like the OP posed with something solid and straightforward aside from "handwave it". It doesn't appear to be a desire to power game or abuse the system but to build a concept that would work in one of the genres Hero is supposed to emulate well. Sometimes handwaving is required or the best path but for something that comes up as often as this question does, I don't it should be the case here. It's not a rare or fringe effect.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Immunity to Electric Attacks

 

Don't forget limited Healing regeneration with the Resurrection advantage! If electricity might have some temporary affect on you but will never actually do you lasting damage, that can to some degree be thought of as "invulnerability" to it.