Limitations on VPP Pool

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Hyper Man, I understand what you did there, but that's not what this is...

 

The character this concept comes from has his normal arrows and his trick arrows, and has enough of each that he will not be using the emergency quiver for a duplicate of one of those powers- it's for the times when you need something special:

"Oh No Bowman, Mondo Man is under the Dementor's mental control, how do we stop him?"

 

"Well Quiver, fortunately I suspected that this might happen and brought a Psi-Chaff arrow just in case, to disrupt Dementor's control."

 

 

It's the Bat-Shark repellent spray effect- there when you need it, but not always carried.

 

 

What you are describing is the usefulness of a VPP for the entire Bow & Arrow SFX.

 

example:

 

67 Schrödinger's Bow & Arrows: Variable Power Pool, 60 base + 7 control cost, all slots 16 Charges (No more than 16 arrows of any one type. GM approval required, possibly with an overall # of arrows carried as well [somewhere in the range of 32-128]; +0) (90 Active Points); Limited Class Of Powers Available Gadget Arrows, only 1 type may be fired in a Phase (-1), Restrainable (-1/2), VPP Can Only Be Changed Between Adventures (Represents the maximum variety of arrow types that can be carried [10-15 different slots]; -1/2); all slots Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), OIF (Bow & Arrows (Some Arrows can be used at 0-Range even if Bow is unavailable); -1/2), Requires Multiple Foci or functions at reduced effectiveness (+1/4), Range Based On Strength (Reminder: this means the character pays END from using STR when 'firing arrows'; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) [Notes: Reminder, VPP's by default require a skill roll to change powers.]

0 1) Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points) Real Cost: 27 - END=0

 

The only thing limiting the scope and variety of your 'arrows' are the Limitations highlighted in BLUE and RED above. Their inclusion only saves 1-2 real points so they could certainly be 'bought off' as follows:

 

1 Naked Buyoff of [VPP Can Only Be Changed Between Adventures - Limitation]: Custom Power (1 Active Points)

 

Re: the use of STR minimums on 'ranged' weapon builds in 5er.

 

If you are building a ranged killing attack STR does not add to damage by default. If you want STR to add (like for thrown weapons) you actually must start with HKA and add the Ranged Advantage. Then you can take a Limitation stating that STR does not add to damage (this is actually how bows are built in 5er). Range Based on STR is a far simplier approach as it doesn't require adding any advantages to the base power.

 

Is this...

60 Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2 1/2d6 (3d6 w/STR), Ranged (+1/2) (60 Active Points) - END=6

 

better than this?

60 Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 - END=6

 

Of course the answer really depends on the character's STR (the first option could be increased up to 5d6+1 Killing with enough STR).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Another way to 'legally' accomplish your described goal is to build the 'Bow & Arrow' power-set as a traditional Multipower with its finite # of slots and use the Power Skill* in combination with 'Banked' Experience Points to build a NEW reusable slot 'on the fly' as you described.

 

*Note that the Power Skill was derived from the original Gadgeteering skill in the first place.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

I think the problem you are having with accepting the RAW explanation for VPP's is that you have a very specific SFX in mind (which is good) but at the same time you also have a very specific idea of what particular mechanic (VPP) should be used to represent it (which can be bad).

 

The concept of Reason from effect is your friend.

 

Since this appears to be an ability that will only occasionally be used I suggest using the Power Skill approach* instead of a VPP as the latter seems like just too broad and powerful of a construct to use for the job.

 

*see my previous post.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Okay' date=' this is the underlying question: If the limitation limits the Whole VPP pool, then why should the limitation not provide a break to the pool cost- this limits more than the powers that can be used by the pool or those powers themselves, it actually limits the pool, does it not make sense that the pool should therefore be given a price break in return?[/quote']

 

A Multipower can have the points in the pool limited, but that does not increase the number of powers in the pool at the same time. A VPP cannot limit the points in the pool, but can hacve multiple max AP slots at the same time.

 

Compare two frameworks, both with the intent of having two slots active at the same time, at 60 AP, and being OAF.

 

The pool cost of the Multipower would be 120/2 = 60. That gives the pool enough power to have 2 60 AP powers up and running at the same time.

 

The VPP pool cost would be 60. It could have two 60 AP powers with OAF = 30 real point powers at the same time.

 

If we allowed the VPP pool cost to be halved, this would significantly skew balance in favour of the VPP.

 

The potential solution, which I think some posters use, is to sever the VPP pool from the active point limits - it governs real points only. Instead, they set the control cost at 1/2 the maximum AP cost of the pool. You would then, if you wanted a VPP with 5 OAF, 1 charge abilities per day, pay

30 (60 AP max/2) divided by 4.5 (OAF, 1 charge rer) = 7 points for the control cost. Each slot would cost 60/4 = 15 real points, so you need a 15 point pool. You now have a pool that can have an unlimited number of 60 AP 1 charge OAF powers.

 

You could then, reasonably, place Cosmic on the control cost as a naked advantage (+2 on 30 points = 60), apply the same -3 limitations, and a further -3/4 for 5 charges, so the cost of making the pool cosmic is 13 points (60/4.75). You can now set the pool 5 times per day. After changing it for the fifth time, the pool is useless - it's stuck in a 1 charge slot, and you already used the 1 charge.

 

But that's purely a house rule solution to solve the problem that you don't benefit from the ability to have 4 15 real point powers in an attacks only type VPP.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

If you have 5 arrows total and each has a 60 active point total (60 point VPP), then you have 300 AP total. If you use all the points at once or one a time, you still only have 300 AP- I could not use one arrow charge to suddenly become 5 arrows with 60 AP each.

 

If this pool is for emergencies and I shoot off all my arrows at once, then I have no arrows left for the next emergency and am, therefore, limited. Any VPP can be used for multiple effects at one time but the charges on this one insures that if you do that you are still not getting any extra effect for doing so as you are still using up your limited number of effects for each power seperately.

 

OK - lemme get simple: Active Points Per Power.

 

If you are not Limiting the Active Points Per Individual Power you have not Limited the Pool and I say "no" - there is no Limit being placed there for me to even consider for any reason that the Pool is Limited and should get a price break.

 

If you can't understand that concept I cannot help you. You smell of bad-munchkinism already.

[fbdaury]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

OK - lemme get simple: Active Points Per Power.

 

If you are not Limiting the Active Points Per Individual Power you have not Limited the Pool and I say "no" - there is no Limit being placed there for me to even consider for any reason that the Pool is Limited and should get a price break.

 

If you can't understand that concept I cannot help you. You smell of bad-munchkinism already.

 

 

Wow, coherent argument there- I have an idea that is in keeping with the genre, that makes sense for the character, and that is tightly restricted and because you cannot come up with a valid reason not to do it the way I would like to do it (the simplest and cleanest way to do it, in fact as well), I'm munchkin? Hot damn, you're a narrow-minded jerk!

[JmOz]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Okay, I understand what you`re getting at, but with a 30 point VPP without the limitation I'm proposing you could use that pool for an almost limitless number of points over the course of the day- even if you used all 5 arrows at one time with my build and got 300 AP worth of powers out of the deal, you are now done for the day. The potential abuse is countered, or greatly reduced, by the fact it can only be done once per day. That seems to be a balancing effect to me.

 

Bottom line, if I want my archer to have a 60 point VPP so that I can use the 60 active point total for an arrow, but only want to be able to use it 5 times per day, why should I have to pay 60+6 (All Powers OAF, 2 handed weapon, Str Min 18/does not add, real weapon, 5 charges)= 66 points for something that I will get very limited use out of?

 

Instead, why not this:

Emergency Arrow quiver- 60 point VPP, 5 single-use charges (-3/4) plus 30 point control, All powers are OAF (-1), Real Weapon (Bow, -1/4), Str Min 18/does not add (-1 1/2), 2 handed weapon (-1/2)= (34+7)= 41 real points cost.

 

 

Because, and admitingly for a couple phase only, you could have 60 real points of powers active for 41 real points spent...that is broken

[JmOz]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Wow' date=' coherent argument there- I have an idea that is in keeping with the genre, that makes sense for the character, and that is tightly restricted and because you cannot come up with a valid reason not to do it the way I would like to do it (the simplest and cleanest way to do it, in fact as well), I'm munchkin? Hot damn, you're a narrow-minded jerk! [/quote']

 

While I agree that he did not need to call you a munchkin, however, returning insult for insult is not the way to resolve issues. Furthermore long experience with G-A tells me that he is not a jerk. He has tried to be helpful to you and has been met with an attitude of "But I'm right".

 

So, let me ask a few questions to frame this:

 

How long have you been playing with the Hero System?

 

Are you the GM for the Game?

 

Is this for a character you will be playing or someone else, or a design experiment?

 

How much experience do you have with VPP's in game?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

While I agree that he did not need to call you a munchkin' date=' however, returning insult for insult is not the way to resolve issues. Furthermore long experience with G-A tells me that he is not a jerk. He has tried to be helpful to you and has been met with an attitude of "But I'm right".[/quote']

 

That last part pretty much sums it up. Everyone here has stated a number of thoughts - yes some have gone "it's not in the rules" - but most have thought about the idea and explained why the request shouldn't be granted.

 

You (Snapt) can think I'm a jerk, doesn't bother me any. But you, Snapt, really have come off as looking for vindication rather than explanation.

 

And you aren't going to get any.

 

I have - in the past, thought of a reason I would allow a discount on a Pool and Control both.

 

And in the end only one conclusion came to mind:

If the Active Points of any single Power can not exceed a percentage of the Pools available Active Points it's a Limited Pool:

 

60 Point Pool; No Power may exceed 40 Active Points

 

This is saying only 2/3s of the Pool is available when building a Power to determine its Active Points; you can't, for whatever reason, get full functionality out of the Pool.

 

an application that doesn't seem to apply to your construct at all. And even then I'm not really keen on discounting the Pool Cost.

[JmOz]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

That last part pretty much sums it up. Everyone here has stated a number of thoughts - yes some have gone "it's not in the rules" - but most have thought about the idea and explained why the request shouldn't be granted.

 

You can think I'm a jerk, doesn't bother me any. But you, Snapt, really have come off as looking for vindication rather than explanation.

 

And you aren't going to get any.

 

I have - in the past, thought of a reason I would allow a discount on a Pool and Control both.

 

And in the end only one conclusion came to mind:

If the Active Points of any single Power can not exceed a percentage of the Pools available Active Points it's a Limited Pool:

 

60 Point Pool; No Power may exceed 40 Active Points

 

This is saying only 2/3s of the Pool is available when building a Power to determine its Active Points; you can't, for whatever reason, get full functionality out of the Pool.

 

an application that doesn't seem to apply to your construct at all. And even then I'm not really keen on discounting the Pool Cost.

 

 

First, I think you are right about the vindication over explanation (Been trying to figure out what was bugging me, and that was it)

 

Second, and I will admit I'm tired and easily confused right now, but when I have tried to come up with: When would it be appropriate to limit the pool, I have always come up with "When it reduces the amount of real points that can be used simultaniously". It was the core behind my idea of splitting the pool with the control (Which admitigly someone else came up with way before me, but I SWEAR I thought of it on my own as well, or at least only subcontiously remember)

 

Third, and this I am sure is the tired paranoid me, but you knew I was not calling you a jerk...like I said sure it is the lack of sleep, and paranoia...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Third' date=' and this I am sure is the tired paranoid me, but you knew I was not calling you a jerk...like I said sure it is the lack of sleep, and paranoia...[/quote']

 

I clarified, didn't mean you - you can focus that paranoia in other more useful directions.

[JmOz]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

I clarified' date=' didn't mean you - you can focus that paranoia in other more useful directions. [/quote']

 

glad to hear, I got lots of places to direct it...

[Ice9]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

I see where he's coming from, though. Let's take the limitation "1 Charge". That's a potent limitation - so potent that powers with it only cost 1/3 what they normally would. So:

 

Energy Blast 12d6, 1 Charge

60 AP for 20 RP, 1/3 the cost

 

Multipower (60p)

1) Energy Blast 12d6

2) RKA 4d6

3) Flash 12d6

60 AP for 26 RP, 1/3 the cost

 

VPP (60p)

60 AP for 70 RP, 7/9 the cost?

 

Sure, VPP is potent. But so are a lot of powers, and all of those are considered 2/3 less potent when they only have one charge. Why is it that a 1 charge VPP costs only slightly less than a normal VPP, when a 1 charge anything else costs massively less?

 

Personally, I believe the houserule JmOz mentioned is a good solution - pay for what you get. And while it may have potential for abuse, I don't think it has much more than VPP already does. Not to mention, it encourages people to put reasonable limits on their VPPs, rather than making them waste points to do so.

[Ice9]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Double post.

[Vox]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Why is it that a 1 charge VPP costs only slightly less than a normal VPP' date=' when a 1 charge [i']anything else[/i] costs massively less?

 

Because it's one charge of absolutely anything. The power of adaptability is hard to quantify. The tougher your enemy, the greater the difference between his best defense and his weakness. Being able to strike at the BBEG's weakness, no matter what it is, has the potential to be game-breaking. Even if it's just one shot.

 

I'm new to HERO, but I've seen adaptable characters break entire campaigns in Gamma World, D&D, and other gaming systems. In light of that, I believe allowing limitations on the pool cost on VPPs is a very bad idea.

 

~Gabriel

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Sure' date=' VPP is potent. But so are a lot of powers, and all of those are considered 2/3 less potent when they only have one charge. Why is it that a 1 charge VPP costs only slightly less than a normal VPP, when a 1 charge [i']anything else[/i] costs massively less?

 

Personally, I believe the houserule JmOz mentioned is a good solution - pay for what you get. And while it may have potential for abuse, I don't think it has much more than VPP already does. Not to mention, it encourages people to put reasonable limits on their VPPs, rather than making them waste points to do so.

 

That part that says "so are a lot of powers" - that VPP is ALL of those potent Powers. Sure, you get it once an adventure/session/however often the GM resets the Charge - but you can build pretty much anything in the book.

 

You haven't reduced the utility of the VPP itself with 1 Charge, all you've done is reduce availability. And there is a difference between the two.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

I see where he's coming from, though. Let's take the limitation "1 Charge". That's a potent limitation - so potent that powers with it only cost 1/3 what they normally would. So:

 

Energy Blast 12d6, 1 Charge

60 AP for 20 RP, 1/3 the cost

 

Multipower (60p)

1) Energy Blast 12d6

2) RKA 4d6

3) Flash 12d6

60 AP for 26 RP, 1/3 the cost

 

VPP (60p)

60 AP for 70 RP, 7/9 the cost?

 

Sure, VPP is potent. But so are a lot of powers, and all of those are considered 2/3 less potent when they only have one charge. Why is it that a 1 charge VPP costs only slightly less than a normal VPP, when a 1 charge anything else costs massively less?

 

Personally, I believe the houserule JmOz mentioned is a good solution - pay for what you get. And while it may have potential for abuse, I don't think it has much more than VPP already does. Not to mention, it encourages people to put reasonable limits on their VPPs, rather than making them waste points to do so.

 

Technically, the VPP itself can still be used an unlimited number of times. The limitation on the control cost only means that each power has only one charge. So, after using my 1 charge Flame EB, I change to a Blinding Light Flash, 1 charge, then maybe an Ice EB with 1 charge.

Presumably, one could take 1 charge twice, requiring every power to have one charge and preventing any change to the pool allocation more than once a day. This still only limits the control cost, however.

 

And I agree the character is not getting full utility. He is paying 60 points (pool) + 18 (30 x 3 for Cosmic /5 for 1 charge twice) = 78 for 1 use of a 1 charge power - basically unlimited choice of a single 60 AP power usable once a day.

 

We can talk all we want about the power of flexibility, but for 90 points, the character could have had a 60 point pool, taken one charge only once, and had the ability to swap between 60 AP powers to his heart's content all day long, so long as he never reused any, and he could have three of them operational at once, as each only uses 20 real points from the pool.

 

By comparison, the same character can have a Multipower of 60 AP slots, with 1 charge in total, and the pool costs 20 points. Each Ultra slot will cost 2 points, so he can buy 29 slots for that 58 point extra cost to get up to the VPP cost. 29 slots seems pretty versatile. It's not infinitely flexible, of course.

 

But a 60 point VPP with Cosmic costs 150 points total. The comparable Multipower would also be 60 points for the pool, leaving 90 for slots - only 15 slots available, so considerably less flexible. And this VPP can have multiple 60 AP slots if they're limited, or mix & match so variable, not fixed, slots are a more comparable cost.

 

Really, the cost of infinite flexibility on an unlimited basis isn't that high. It's true that the more limitations on the powers, the worse the VPP compares.

 

So, to me, there are really two questions.

 

The first is whether I'm comfortable with that level of flexibility in my game, whether or not it's limited. Assuming I am, the second is how to set a fair price for that flexibility, and I should be able to compare the "fair cost" of an unlimited pool with that flexibility, and one that is limited, and be satisfied that the reduction in cost is commensurate with the limitations applied.

 

The VPP which uses limitations to reduce both the control cost and the real cost of each power within the pool, facilitating use of multiple powers due to the limitations, seems to work out reasonably well in practice. But when the VPP has been further 'limited' to not have all of its real points available at any one time, I am inclined to agree that the VPP costs too much.

 

One solution, at least in my view, is to have VPP charges reduce the real points available in the VPP after the charges are used. So I could buy a VPP, all slots OAF Bow and Arrow, 1 charge. The VPP could be set to a 60 AP power with 1 charge, OAF Bow and Arrow. That's 15 real points. After firing that arrow, the VPP has 45 real points left - it's good for 3 more 1 charge 60 AP arrows of choice. COST: 60 + 22 [30 x 3 /4] = 82 points. I can now have any four 60 AP powers of my choice, each with one charge. That could be the same power four times ("Luckily, I packed four Tuning Fork arrows today"), or four entirely different powers. Note that he could also, technically, fire off four arrows at a time - he can have all four powers active at once. However, the MPA rules preclude him using multiple attack arrows in that four arrows at once.

 

The cost could be further reduced, by noting it is a restricted group of powers - if there are some things I define that an arrow can't do. Reasonably, you could also limit it to "only one power at a time".

 

A character who chooses not to place that 1 charge limitation would pay 60 + 45 [30 x 3/2] = 105 points and could change arrows at will. He could have two arrows available at a time (each one 60 AP and 30 RP), but can't MPA with them. He could further reduce the real cost with charges, but he'd also be out of arrows after four 1 charge shots, as that would use up his 60 point reserve.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Yes, there are illegal builds in official products. The thing is, IMNSHO, you should only use an illegal build if there is no legal way to create an effect. The 'variable skills pool' is a good example; there's no rules-legal way to do that, so with special GM permission, you can.

 

There are legal ways to build what you want to build. I can't see any reason for attempting this construction other than making it less expensive. And I'll be the first to admit, there are several things in HERO I think are pretty overpriced (50 points for full life support?!), but VPPs aren't one of them.

 

On the other hand, if there IS a legal way to do it, it should be done legally. I'm hidebound enough that I tend to lean towards 'there's no legal way to do it, so we can't, so we won't'. I figure any power the rules can't govern is pretty likely to bend the game in ways I'm not going to find amusing.

[Ice9]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

I'm not denying that a VPP is powerful. That's why it costs more than a comparable normal power. However, if a non-limited VPP is balanced at 150% the cost of the powers inside it, then why would a limited VPP need to cost 250% or more? Essentially, how are VPP limits (specifically, limited charges) less limiting than other limits?

 

And honestly, pricing the VPP this way just encourages people not to limit it. If a "must prepare powers in advance, only 1 charge per day, only fire-based attack powers" VPP only costs 10% less than an unlimited one, most people will be inclined to go for the latter. Or if they do get a limited one for character/sfx reasons, they feel like a sucker for doing so - that's not how HERO is supposed to work.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

I'm not denying that a VPP is powerful. That's why it costs more than a comparable normal power. However, if a non-limited VPP is balanced at 150% the cost of the powers inside it, then why would a limited VPP need to cost 250% or more? Essentially, how are VPP limits (specifically, limited charges) less limiting than other limits?

 

And honestly, pricing the VPP this way just encourages people not to limit it. If a "must prepare powers in advance, only 1 charge per day, only fire-based attack powers" VPP only costs 10% less than an unlimited one, most people will be inclined to go for the latter. Or if they do get a limited one for character/sfx reasons, they feel like a sucker for doing so - that's not how HERO is supposed to work.

 

Here's another way to think about.

 

Take a look at one of my earlier Multipower & VPP comparisons on this thread. Specifically the part illustrating that to replace the functionality of the VPP you must buy "X" number of slots for the Multipower. No matter how many limitations you take on the slots they will ALWAYS have a minimum cost of 1 real point each. The mechanics of a VPP just appears to shift its minimum cost from what looks like the equivalent to the 'slots': the Control Cost. But part if not all of the 'slots' are actually part of the Pool Cost. That's why no Limitations can be taken on that component of a VPP.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Because a VPP, no matter how you Limit it, has an infinite number of slots to work with.

 

I can build the same Power with 58 different Special Effects, even if only each one had a single Charge that's 58 Powers.

[Multiplex]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

A hard example...

 

10 Multipower, 20-point reserve, all slots OAF(-1)

1U 1) EB, 2d6 (10 active)

1U 2) Entangle, 1d6 1DEF (10 active)

 

12 Variable Power Pool, 10 base + 2 control cost (15 Active) all slots OAF (-1)

powers..near INFINITE

 

 

These 2 pools give similar abilities, the capability to use 2 powers at the same time, and a choice of power. However, the VPP allows for an unending number of powers to be available. This extension to the capability of the MP is the reason for not allowing the limitation to be applied to the base points. Otherwise, you should be using the MP, where each power slots costs at least 1 pt.

 

Note, you already have an effective 50% reduction on the base pool cost.

[fbdaury]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

Because a VPP, no matter how you Limit it, has an infinite number of slots to work with.

 

I can build the same Power with 58 different Special Effects, even if each one had a single Charge that's 58 Powers.

 

If you limit the pool with 5 total charges per day, how exactly can you use an infinite number of attacks? 5 does not = infinite, it equals 5.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

I didn't say that, now did I?

 

I said infinite number of Powers. Just because you can only use 5 of them a day doesn't mean you don't have a lot of options open as to which one CAN be used.

 

I build a VPP, I build 152 Powers inside that VPP. I say "But I can only use 5 of them a day" - I still have 152 Powers to choose from.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations on VPP Pool

 

If you limit the pool with 5 total charges per day' date=' how exactly can you use an infinite number of attacks? 5 does not = infinite, it equals 5.[/quote']

 

He means that each individual use can be infinitely appropriate to the current circumstance.

 

Imagine a manager to a large old hotel. He has individual keys for each and every room (slots of a multipower). He also has a 'master' key that can fit any room in the entire hotel and possibly others of the same 'chain' in different cities (a VPP).