Yet another SPD/phase variation

[zornwil]

How about this alternative - and bear in mind this is just a brainstorm - you get your number of actions in a turn according to SPD as normal. At the beginning of the turn, everyone moves in DEX order first, so each character IN THEORY gets one action in at the top of the turn. Ties in DEX are resolved by whoever has higher INT or a DEX roll-off (not sure which is best).

 

However, if someone wants to get in their action before another person's, if they have remaining phases, they may "interrupt" by making a DEX roll - they must declare they want to do so BEFORE the character whose turn it is announces their action. The DEX roll is made to get 11/less on the roll modified as +(DEX/3) AND -(DEX being called off/3) AND it is -2 for the character interrupting per each phase they've already spent. So if your character is DEX 30, and DEX 12 characters are going, you need 11+10-4=17. But if your same character had taken 2 phases already when decaring his intent to interrupt he is at -4 when making his roll, so he actually needs 17-4=13 or less.

 

No one can take more than 1 action in a single DEX "segment". In other words, if DEX 11 characters are going, and a DEX 30 character wants to move again and interrupt the DEX 11 character(s), he may do so assuming he makes his DEX roll HOWEVER he cannot interrupt again at least until DEX 10 character(s) go.

 

Aborts could be done the same as they are now, you simply take the abort when needed and you've used up a phase and cannot go again in the current DEX being called.

 

When all the DEXes have gone, the process simply starts over if anyone has phases left.

[Supreme]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

It's strange to me, but the most frequently occurring thought on the boards (other than various political issues on the Non-Gaming boards) is always that there's something wrong with the Speed system in HERO. Why? I think the Speed system is one of the best things about it. I can only ever see two flaws to it. First, that it can make combats take a long time. There are numerous workarounds to that, though. Second, that the one segment = one second notion is not especially realistic. I'm sure there are many well-trained combatants who can perform more than 12 actions in 12 seconds. Still, I really don't see what the problem is.

[Sociotard]

Originally posted by Supreme

Second, that the one segment = one second notion is not especially realistic. I'm sure there are many well-trained combatants who can perform more than 12 actions in 12 seconds. Still, I really don't see what the problem is.

They do perform more than 12 actions. That's what gets simulated with the different DCV and OCV ratings, for example. If 3 people shoot at me and I abort to dodge for each, then assuming I succeed I'll have done an amazing amount of body movement in just one segment.

Sweep and Autofire are other good examples of this.

Basically, we all need to remember that what we see on the board (X moves over here. Y's turn. Y shoots at something over yonder. next segment) is NOT what is happening in the battle we are simulating. EVERY character is ALWAYS moving. Think about it. A speed 4 character with 10" running doesn't move 65 feet in one second, pause for 3, and then move another 65. You get the idea. Sometimes time is just another special effect.

[Talon]

I think the complaint that has the most validity is that the SPD system is too predictable. A higher SPD character knows when he's going to be able to take two actions in a row, and so can plan for it accordingly. Low SPD characters can do things to counteract this effect, but it requires a little more game-system knowledge than it should.

 

That said, I've never felt the need to alter the SPD rules...but if I did, it would be along the lines of removing predictability while having a minimal effect on the number and order of Phases each character gets per Turn.

[Tom Carman]

Here's a variation I don't think I've seen proposed yet:

 

It has the advantages of minimal change to the existing system, while removing the high degree of predictability. Everyone gets as many actions as they have SPD, and they act in DEX-order (with the usual variation for Lightning Reflexes and Hurry, etc.). Aside from the rule that you can't take two Phases in the same Segment, there is no limitation on which Segments you choose to act in. Aborts still happen when you act before your DEX, but not Helds since you just put your Phase in any Segment you want. (You can still lose an action if you run out of Segments.)

 

An aggressive character might take all of his actions early in the Turn, hoping to take out the opposition before they can counterstrike. A defensive one might try to weather the storm with Dodge and defenses, hitting back when the attacker can no longer Dive for Cover.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Supreme

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

It's strange to me, but the most frequently occurring thought on the boards (other than various political issues on the Non-Gaming boards) is always that there's something wrong with the Speed system in HERO. Why? I think the Speed system is one of the best things about it. I can only ever see two flaws to it. First, that it can make combats take a long time. There are numerous workarounds to that, though. Second, that the one segment = one second notion is not especially realistic. I'm sure there are many well-trained combatants who can perform more than 12 actions in 12 seconds. Still, I really don't see what the problem is.

 

I actually agree, I am just fascinated with the alternatives. I don't have any problem with the SPD system as is, except for one aspect: i my games I make all same-segment actions nearly simultaneous. This means that although I'll allow people a chance (they have to make a DEX roll) to put up defenses and similar aborts before a strike hits, all strikes are launched. So even though I might hit and knock you out in a segment, you still get your shot on me.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Tom Carman

Here's a variation I don't think I've seen proposed yet:

 

It has the advantages of minimal change to the existing system, while removing the high degree of predictability. Everyone gets as many actions as they have SPD, and they act in DEX-order (with the usual variation for Lightning Reflexes and Hurry, etc.). Aside from the rule that you can't take two Phases in the same Segment, there is no limitation on which Segments you choose to act in. Aborts still happen when you act before your DEX, but not Helds since you just put your Phase in any Segment you want. (You can still lose an action if you run out of Segments.)

 

An aggressive character might take all of his actions early in the Turn, hoping to take out the opposition before they can counterstrike. A defensive one might try to weather the storm with Dodge and defenses, hitting back when the attacker can no longer Dive for Cover.

 

I thought about that one, the only thing is I felt there should be some penalty if you try to front-load too many actions, so that's why what I proposed is sort of what you said but modified with the penalized rolls if you try to act too often/too many times in too short a time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Tom Carman

It has the advantages of minimal change to the existing system, while removing the high degree of predictability. Everyone gets as many actions as they have SPD, and they act in DEX-order (with the usual variation for Lightning Reflexes and Hurry, etc.). Aside from the rule that you can't take two Phases in the same Segment, there is no limitation on which Segments you choose to act in. Aborts still happen when you act before your DEX, but not Helds since you just put your Phase in any Segment you want. (You can still lose an action if you run out of Segments.)

 

I think the concern with this type of system is the additional value of a high Speed. If one character has an 8, and the other a 4, SPD 8 knows he moves twice, then SPD 4 moves. A bit of sparring will tell him that. If SPD 8 wants a good DCV, he'll have to devote some resources to it every couple of phases.

 

However, if I know my character has SPD 8 under your system, I'll move in Ph 1 (attack) and watch the other guy's reaction. He may attack me back (in which case I expect him to run out of phases before I do) or he may hold back. If he holds back, I may as well take my next 7 actions. BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM. He's STILL standing?? Man these 4 SPD guys are tough! For my 8th phase, I'll (martial) dodge and put all levels to DCV. See you in Phase 1!

 

Now he gets to take all those carefully saved phases against my best dodge DCV, and all it cost me was one of my 8 attacks. At least if he reserved under the usual system, I'd either have to blow a lot of phases dodging, or take some shots at my usual DCV.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by Supreme

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

It's broke.

It's strange to me, but the most frequently occurring thought on the boards (other than various political issues on the Non-Gaming boards) is always that there's something wrong with the Speed system in HERO. Why? I think the Speed system is one of the best things about it. I can only ever see two flaws to it. First, that it can make combats take a long time. There are numerous workarounds to that, though. Second, that the one segment = one second notion is not especially realistic. I'm sure there are many well-trained combatants who can perform more than 12 actions in 12 seconds. Still, I really don't see what the problem is.

No, the worst thing about SPD is that it allows players and GMs to come up with unrealistic tactics that bog the game down, and lessen enjoyment. It's false verisimilitude.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

I think the complaint that has the most validity is that the SPD system is too predictable. A higher SPD character knows when he's going to be able to take two actions in a row, and so can plan for it accordingly. Low SPD characters can do things to counteract this effect, but it requires a little more game-system knowledge than it should.

 

That said, I've never felt the need to alter the SPD rules...but if I did, it would be along the lines of removing predictability while having a minimal effect on the number and order of Phases each character gets per Turn.

All rules systems are exploitable by those who know the system better. Switching to a new system won't stop that.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

It's broke.

No, the worst thing about SPD is that it allows players and GMs to come up with unrealistic tactics that bog the game down, and lessen enjoyment. It's false verisimilitude.

I don't really think realism is an issue. RPGs, for most, are an escapist past-time. Playability is an issue, though. Can you give me an example/anecdote of an "unrealistic tactic" that you've seen that is an example of what you're talking about?

[Talon]

Originally posted by Supreme

All rules systems are exploitable by those who know the system better. Switching to a new system won't stop that.

 

True, which maybe is why I've never changed myself.

 

More importantly, I guess, the ways in which you exploit the SPD chart bear little resemblance to real life. If it were possible to create a system which was no harder or more complex to use and which was exploitable in ways more in keeping with reality, I'd use it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Supreme

I don't really think realism is an issue. RPGs, for most, are an escapist past-time.

 

I always laugh when I see a post about the realism of the mechanics we use when role playing comic book superheroes or swordsmen and wizards fighting fire breathing dragons.

[Guest Keneton]

Speed is not broken.

 

The Speed chart is not broken.

 

People have no problem seeing the difference between an 50 Strength character and a 10 strength character, but tend to balk at the diffence between a speed 3 and a speed 7.

 

40 points is a big deal!

 

The tactics are not false by the way. In chess people would say dont bring out your queen too early or move the same piece twice. The computers do these things all the time because they sometimes work! Tactics that work can be infuriating but are not necessarily false.

 

Games that allow every one to GO the same number of times each turn are unrealistic. Supers are fast than normals in tye comics and in a comics style game.

 

On the heroic level speeds are generally 3 or 4 so it does not matter.

 

 

 

[Talon]

(Remember, I like and use the current rules. )

 

In many ways, SPD 3 vs. 4 is more broken than SPD 3 vs. 6. With 3/6, you see a consistent difference -- the SPD 6 person goes twice as often. Everyone can understand this pretty easily and there are no surprises.

 

With SPD 3/4, you have the "special Phase" in Segment 8. A smart Hero player will avoid certain actions in that Phase, actions that would be fine to do in 4 or 12. Why? Because they know that the SPD 4 character gets two Phases (assuming a higher DEX) before they get to go again, effectively doubling any CV penalty or other disadvantage they might incur.

 

Someone not versed in Hero will easily overlook this and treat Segment 8 like any other Segment, and get hosed. Hero veterans will shake their heads.

 

What would be ideal? If the "special Phase" was randomized, so that you know it's going to happen at some point, but you don't know when until it actually happens. How would you do that without adding a ton of die rolls or other time-consuming randomizing factors? Beats me.

[Supreme]

An anecdote to refute the idea that using your knowledge of the Speed chart is not entirely false...

 

I used to study Kung Fu. One day when my teacher was giving me a sparring lesson he told about the problems with committing to an action. When you throw a punch or a kick you have committed yourself to a movement which, if unsuccessful, will leave you exposed to a counter-move. So he told me that one thing to do is to move part-way forward, but intentionally hesitate until you see what your opponent is doing. When he told me that I thought, "Oh, I get it. He's saving his phase."

[Damon_Dusk]

I almost hate to jump into this discussion, but another thought about SPD (and keep in mind that I don't necessarily dislike the Speed Chart)...

 

Do away with the speed chart altogether and assume all characters get 1 "action" every 6 second Round by default or a number of actions equal to their DEX/10 (minimum of 1). This is pretty much as standard. They can buy their speed up +1 SPD for 20 points. But SPD in combat is handled differently. In each round, everyone gets 1 action according to their DEX + Lightning Reflexes + whatever else. Characters with higher speed will get more actions after all characters have gotten their first actions. So, two characters with SPD 4 and SPD 5 will get 4 Actions "traded off" according to their DEX values, then the faster character will get one more after the other character is finished for the round. What to do about the Post-12 Recovery, though...Every other round maybe?

 

It could be done with a 12 Second Round using the standard rules for buying and determining Speed as well, and it wouldn't cause troubles with the Post-Segment 12 Recovery. It's just with 12 full Phases, you'll have a lot more opportunity for slower characters to be finished with their actions and a really fast character getting a whole bunch of attacks afterward...which, in truth, isn't that much different than it is already. And keep in mind characters can still hold actions, etc.

 

While this system doesn't do away with any metagame tactics in the Speed Chart, it simplifies things.

[Fitz]

I don't think the Speed Chart is broken, per se, but I also don't think it does a very good job of reflecting the way that combat works in the real world, and I don't use it. (Just to lay out my credentials in support of this opinion: I've been training in various martial arts for over 30 years now, and currently hold a sandan in aikido).

 

Unfortunately, none of the variations I've tried have been entirely satisfactory either. What I'm looking for is a system which does several things:

 

• A higher SPD must be clearly beneficial
  
• Phase order must not be mechanical or predictable
  
• The system must engage the players so that they feel some control of their own destinies
  
• Low SPD characters must not be left hanging forever because of bad luck
  
• The system must not be a huge drag or bummer, causing wailing and lamentation through the nations of the world and bringing about the end of all things, causing civilization to fall.
  

 

The system I'm currently considering uses a single randomizer die per player to indicate whether or not they get an action in the current Phase. Rolling their SPD or lower on the die indicates an action. If no action is indicated for the player, it becomes a Null Phase and only Aborts may be engaged in.

 

A player always gets an action after a number of Null Phases, the exact number depending on the ratio of their SPD to 12 (the number of Phases per Turn). For example, a character with a SPD of 4 would get an action after 3 Null Phases, a SPD 3 character would get one after 4 Null Phases, and a SPD 2 character would get one after 6 Null Phases.

 

So far, so good. The only problem I'm having is working out how many Null Phases should be required for SPDs 5 andhigher than 6, but I'm leaning towards SPD 5-8: 2, and SPD 9-11: 1. A SPD of 12 would, of course, require no Null Phases.

 

As far as I can see without having yet playtested the system, this should fulfill all of my requirements, allowing the potential for luck to give a low-speed character a day of glory without making relative SPDs meaningless.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I think the concern with this type of system is the additional value of a high Speed. If one character has an 8, and the other a 4, SPD 8 knows he moves twice, then SPD 4 moves. A bit of sparring will tell him that. If SPD 8 wants a good DCV, he'll have to devote some resources to it every couple of phases.

 

However, if I know my character has SPD 8 under your system, I'll move in Ph 1 (attack) and watch the other guy's reaction. He may attack me back (in which case I expect him to run out of phases before I do) or he may hold back. If he holds back, I may as well take my next 7 actions. BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM. He's STILL standing?? Man these 4 SPD guys are tough! For my 8th phase, I'll (martial) dodge and put all levels to DCV. See you in Phase 1!

 

Now he gets to take all those carefully saved phases against my best dodge DCV, and all it cost me was one of my 8 attacks. At least if he reserved under the usual system, I'd either have to blow a lot of phases dodging, or take some shots at my usual DCV.

 

EDIT - KILLED THIS, sorry, I was responding incorrectly, I thought this was referring to the method i mentioned

[zornwil]

I mean no offense, but to those of you quoting "realism" and how combat really works, I think you're missing the point of the HERO combat system - to replicate FICTIONAL HEROIC DRAMA.

 

As such, I think the SPD/time method works great. You can calculate the timing of actions better, you can achieve those "split second" actions pretty well, even if not ideally. The differences in SPD to my mind work well in exaggerating the difference between, say, Doc Savage and the Regular Thud.

 

IMHO.

[Damon_Dusk]

I'm not so worried about realism as I am about making the combat faster, yet still having a reason to have "fast" characters (i.e. not completely getting rid of the SPD characteristic as suggested in FREd). But I also don't necessarily need the distinction of 12 different Speeds (I run mostly heroic-level games).

 

I'll rewrite more clearly what I wrote above:

 

- Combat is based on a 12 Second (Segment) Turn.

- Characters determine their Speed normally.

- The turn begins with the character with the highest effective DEX (Initiative) taking one action (or holding), then going to the character with the next highest Initiative, and so on until all participating combatants have taken 1 action. This sequence of actions is called a Round.

- Another Round is begun if any characters have a Speed of 2 or more and is resolved in the order above.

- Rounds continue until characters have taken as many actions equal to their Speed.

- When all characters have used all of their actions, a new Turn is begun and the sequence starts over.

- At the End of every Turn, each character takes a free Post-12 Recovery.

- Characters holding actions can only have 1 held action at a time and any actions they might have taken during a Round are lost in place of the held action.

 

I'm looking at all aspects of my own speed suggestion and considering implementing it in my next campaign. Hoping some of you out there can point out any flaws (besides it not following the Speed Chart) that I might have missed.

So far what I see is...

 

1.) How do I deal with Haymakers and maneuvers that are +1 Segment to complete?

 

Suggestion: Ruling that it happens on the characters effective DEX in the next Round, and s/he automatically goes last in that round (potentially gives the character a chance to go twice in a row).

 

Those who want a bit of randomness to their combat order can take my above suggestion and add a die roll (1, 2, or 3d6?) to the character's effective DEX score to determine when combatants go in the Turn. If they want to get really wild, they can say a critical roll (6, 12, or 18) allows the character an extra action that turn. Just throwing out ideas here...

 

Edit: The above method of dealing with Speed could also be used in a standard 12 Segment Turn, and probably works out better that way, so I changed the default to account for this. It was originally a 6 Segment Turn.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Damon_Dusk

I'm not so worried about realism as I am about making the combat faster, yet still having a reason to have "fast" characters (i.e. not completely getting rid of the SPD characteristic as suggested in FREd). But I also don't necessarily need the distinction of 12 different Speeds (I run mostly heroic-level games).

 

Originally posted by Damon_Dusk

I'll rewrite more clearly what I wrote above:

 

- Combat is based on a 12 Second (Segment) Turn.

- Characters determine their Speed normally.

- The turn begins with the character with the highest effective DEX (Initiative) taking one action (or holding), then going to the character with the next highest Initiative, and so on until all participating combatants have taken 1 action. This sequence of actions is called a Round.

- Another Round is begun if any characters have a Speed of 2 or more and is resolved in the order above.

- Rounds continue until characters have taken as many actions equal to their Speed.

- When all characters have used all of their actions, a new Turn is begun and the sequence starts over.

- At the End of every Turn, each character takes a free Post-12 Recovery.

- Characters holding actions can only have 1 held action at a time and any actions they might have taken during a Round are lost in place of the held action.

 

So if I have a fast character, and I watch everyone else move, no sense holding back - blaze away with full OCV, shut down defense i favour of offense and then shift everything to DCV in my last phase. Saved phases will stop this, but now it becomes a matter of drawing out the saved phase (or blazing away while he saves his phases and still using the last one all for defense). That's certainly as tactically annoying as anything happening under the current system.

 

Originally posted by Damon_Dusk

I'm looking at all aspects of my own speed suggestion and considering implementing it in my next campaign. Hoping some of you out there can point out any flaws (besides it not following the Speed Chart) that I might have missed.

So far what I see is...

 

1.) How do I deal with Haymakers and maneuvers that are +1 Segment to complete?

 

Suggestion: Ruling that it happens on the characters effective DEX in the next Round, and s/he automatically goes last in that round (potentially gives the character a chance to go twice in a row).

 

That would seem to work. How often does a character lose a phase doing a haymaker? It can only happen if he has SPD 7+ under the existing system. You could push his next phase top the following segment, but that's a bigger drawback than the current system mechanic.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I think the concern with this type of system is the additional value of a high Speed. If one character has an 8, and the other a 4, SPD 8 knows he moves twice, then SPD 4 moves. A bit of sparring will tell him that. If SPD 8 wants a good DCV, he'll have to devote some resources to it every couple of phases.

 

However, if I know my character has SPD 8 under your system, I'll move in Ph 1 (attack) and watch the other guy's reaction. He may attack me back (in which case I expect him to run out of phases before I do) or he may hold back. If he holds back, I may as well take my next 7 actions. BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM. He's STILL standing?? Man these 4 SPD guys are tough! For my 8th phase, I'll (martial) dodge and put all levels to DCV. See you in Phase 1!

 

Now he gets to take all those carefully saved phases against my best dodge DCV, and all it cost me was one of my 8 attacks. At least if he reserved under the usual system, I'd either have to blow a lot of phases dodging, or take some shots at my usual DCV.

 

If SPD-4 Man has an area-effect attack, you are in serious trouble at this point. The game might become even more tactical than before, since both defensive fighting and go-for-broke are viable approaches.

 

Speed is so expensive because it is always a major advantage to out-act the opposition. The standard system keeps this somewhat in check, but then we get the complaints about combat being too predictable.

[Toadmaster]

Stop reading my mind

 

Originally posted by Damon_Dusk

I almost hate to jump into this discussion, but another thought about SPD (and keep in mind that I don't necessarily dislike the Speed Chart)...

 

Do away with the speed chart altogether and assume all characters get 1 "action" every 6 second Round by default or a number of actions equal to their DEX/10 (minimum of 1). This is pretty much as standard. They can buy their speed up +1 SPD for 20 points. But SPD in combat is handled differently. In each round, everyone gets 1 action according to their DEX + Lightning Reflexes + whatever else. Characters with higher speed will get more actions after all characters have gotten their first actions. So, two characters with SPD 4 and SPD 5 will get 4 Actions "traded off" according to their DEX values, then the faster character will get one more after the other character is finished for the round. What to do about the Post-12 Recovery, though...Every other round maybe?

 

It could be done with a 12 Second Round using the standard rules for buying and determining Speed as well, and it wouldn't cause troubles with the Post-Segment 12 Recovery. It's just with 12 full Phases, you'll have a lot more opportunity for slower characters to be finished with their actions and a really fast character getting a whole bunch of attacks afterward...which, in truth, isn't that much different than it is already. And keep in mind characters can still hold actions, etc.

 

While this system doesn't do away with any metagame tactics in the Speed Chart, it simplifies things.

 

I had a similar thought while reading the too many stats thread. After reading your idea I ran right into the kitchen and wrapped my head in foil GET OUT OF MY MIND!!!!!

 

Anyway my thought was to cut the turns down to 6 seconds, allow 1/2 REC at the end of each turn. Speed still determines number of actions. Spd 2 gets 1 action per turn, Spd 3 gets an extra action every other turn (3/2), spd 4 gets two actions etc. Actions go based on Dex, this would actually make dex more important. Currently a dex 20 spd 3 vs a dex 18 spd 4 character, the dex only matters on phase 12. Under this system the dex 20 would always get the option of going first, while the spd 4 character would get more actions. This might also increase the use of non break point Dex.

 

I don't think this would work so well for supers as the higher speeds utilize the speed chart more, but it might be worth exploring for heroic level games. I don't really have a problem with the speed chart but its use really is an unnecessary complication when the highest speed in the game is a 4 or 5.

[J4y]

. Second, that the one segment = one second notion is not especially realistic. I'm sure there are many well-trained combatants who can perform more than 12 actions in 12 seconds. Still, I really don't see what the problem is.

 

I would go in the opposite direction. I think generally people get way too many actions. Thinking that each punch is an action is just too fine grained, an entire set of blows being a more realistic thought of what an attack is. You can't model a fire fight in Hero realistically because of it. A Hero firefight will never last more than 30 seconds, and I can't think of any of our super powered fights that have lasted even a minute despite our team having favouring bricks. A typical movie fight usually lasts several minutes, and real fire fights even longer. but in Hero it's like hitting the fast forward button.

 

Because of the very short fights it has pretty much mandated that the team either a) stick together or buy megascale movement or c) bring a book to sessions because if you're not at a fight you got some time to waste as the next 36 seconds of intense bloodshed could take hours to play out.