Police Powers & Weapon Permit

[Edsel]

The last question I posted started such a wonderful discussion I thought I'd give this one a try as well. One of my players posed this question during character design so I thought I'd see how some of you would answer it. As part of the character's package deal they gain Federal Police Powers (3-point Fringe Benefit) and Concealed Weapon Permit (2-point Fringe Benefit).

 

Question From The Player: I have not read the rules on this, but wouldn't the ability to have a concealed weapon be covered under "local police powers"? I mean, that is what membership in that organization provides, as well as access to information and detainment/arrest authority.

 

How would you answer this? I am searching through my books right now.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

Local police do not carry concealed weapons. They have them on display. There is a real difference between being able to carry a weapon in public legally (which local police powers covers) and carrying a concealed weapon (which you need something more for).

 

The Feds have access to more resources than local police, which is why the perk cost more.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

Local police do not carry concealed weapons. They have them on display. There is a real difference between being able to carry a weapon in public legally (which local police powers covers) and carrying a concealed weapon (which you need something more for).

 

Plain clothes police officers carry concealed weapons. As do off-duty police officers who work for departments who require them to carry when in their jurisdiction - even when off duty. Further, being a sworn officer conveys with it the right to carry a concealed firearm without a permit in the state in which you are sworn, and most states extend that right to out of state police officers.

 

The Feds have access to more resources than local police' date=' which is why the perk cost more.[/quote']

 

Again, sworn federal agents may carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, by dint of the fact that they are sworn federal agents. All fifty states recognize this right and, theoretically, couldn't interfere with it even if they wanted to. They, like their local counter-parts, do not need to apply for a carry permit.

[sinanju]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

Local police do not carry concealed weapons. They have them on display. There is a real difference between being able to carry a weapon in public legally (which local police powers covers) and carrying a concealed weapon (which you need something more for).

 

The Feds have access to more resources than local police, which is why the perk cost more.

 

Never mind. I see that Vondy beat me to it.

 

If I were GM I'd rule that buying the police powers perk (local or national) included the ability to carry concealed. No need to buy that separately.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

Yes, if you choose to interpret it as such.

 

I would say this -- if a character had only Police Powers, and they lost them for some reason ("Turn in your badge and your gun! Yer suspended!") then they lose the concealed carry privilege along with it.

 

If the character ALSO had Concealed Weapon Permit, then it represents they have been permitted independently of being a cop and don't lose the privilege if they lose their Police Powers.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

Yes, if you choose to interpret it as such.

 

I would say this -- if a character had only Police Powers, and they lost them for some reason ("Turn in your badge and your gun! Yer suspended!") then they lose the concealed carry privilege along with it.

 

If the character ALSO had Concealed Weapon Permit, then it represents they have been permitted independently of being a cop and don't lose the privilege if they lose their Police Powers.

 

This is accurate to real world (american) law - and how I would rule as a GM.

 

Though suspending - or firing - a cop in departments with strong police unions isn't always so simple.

 

It makes for a nice TV Trope, though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

Plain clothes police officers carry concealed weapons. As do off-duty police officers who work for departments who require them to carry when in their jurisdiction - even when off duty. Further' date=' being a sworn officer conveys with it the right to carry a concealed firearm without a permit in the state in which you are sworn, and [u']most[/u] states extend that right to out of state police officers.

 

Again, sworn federal agents may carry a firearm, concealed or otherwise, by dint of the fact that they are sworn federal agents. All fifty states recognize this right and, theoretically, couldn't interfere with it even if they wanted to. They, like their local counter-parts, do not need to apply for a carry permit.

 

Being from the UK I do not know whether local police have the right to carry concealed weapons. Do you know if they do?

 

Ours don't but some police fficers can - which would mean that you would have to take the concealed weapon perk on top of the local police powers perk.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

Being from the UK I do not know whether local police have the right to carry concealed weapons. Do you know if they do?

 

In the US? Yes. They may carry in the state in which they are sworn, and most other states extend that right to out of state police officers. They do not need a concealed weapons permit. The same is true of feds. They may carry in all fifty states without a permit. In both cases the local/federal police/agent credentials are all that is needed.

 

In the UK? I'm not an expert, but I do know your police (such as the met) do deploy armed responders in plain clothes for diplomatic events and protection details. I do not know if your trained armed responders are allowed to carry when off-duty, but my impression is that they are not. I have also seen references to plain-clothes investigators for British customs being armed (though I believe they are separate from your police and they prefer to remain mum about it).

 

Ours don't but some police officers can - which would mean that you would have to take the concealed weapon perk on top of the local police powers perk.

 

Why? Do they have a license separate from their police credentials, or are they authorized internally (after selection and training) to serve as armed responders? Unless the right to carry is independent of their status as a police officer I wouldn't require the additional perk. I would, however, charge an additional point for their police powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

......................

 

 

Why? Do they have a license separate from their police credentials, or are they authorized internally (after selection and training) to serve as armed responders? Unless the right to carry is independent of their status as a police officer I wouldn't require the additional perk. I would, however, charge an additional point for their police powers.

 

That isn't what I'm thinking: to become a police officer you might have to take the perk AND take concealed weapon permit. In fact, thinking about it that must be true: local police powers costs 2 points as does concealed weapon permit. If local police powers included concealed weapon permit it would have to cost more.

 

The fact that a police officer has both in reality means their qualification as a police officer is their authorisation, doesn't mean that the LPP perk in game has to automatically include that. The LPP (or FPP) perk may well simply give you access to resources. The 'right' to carry a concealed weapon would have to be bought seperately. That makes sense if you look at private investigator: that costs 2 points too, and presumably doesn't automatically have a right to carry concealed weapons. So, a local police officer in America needs to take LPP and also CWP: the game is designed with the possibility that not everywhere has the same rules as America.

 

A GM can decide that LPP carries certain responsibilities with it that effectively pay for CWP, of course, which is why there is not a cost hike. Mind you the player would not be able to double dip - take disadvantages to reflect that extra responsibility as well as get freebie perk points.

 

Bear in mind that you may have to pay for something in game that takes no effort to obtain in reality: you have to pay 1 point for a passport but pretty much everyone is entitled to one as of right, even if not everyone applies for them.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

That isn't what I'm thinking: to become a police officer you might have to take the perk AND take concealed weapon permit. In fact' date=' thinking about it that must be true: local police powers costs 2 points as does concealed weapon permit. If local police powers included concealed weapon permit it would have to cost more./snip[/quote']

 

I do not agree that it must be true. Indeed, conceptually, quite the opposite. Unless the character has the right to carry a firearm independent of his police status they should not purchase separate perks. You are making a cost based argument based on unsupported supposition in terms of how much perks should cost and doesn't reflect how these things two separate concepts work in the real world. Hero doesn't just require a mathematical-mechanical check. It also requires an effects-concept check. You don't require a conceptually inappropriate perk to appease your math gut. If you don't like the math it would be better to change the cost. There's nothing that says the cost in the book is sacrosanct, or even correct in terms of actual utility.

 

Personally, I would charge something like this:

 

Concealed Weapons Permit: 1

Professional License: 1 (incl. private investigators)*

Local Police Powers: 3 (incl. right to carry)

Federal Police Powers: 4 (incl. right to carry)

 

*Most states in the US have separate armed and unarmed licenses for PIs. However, armed PI's must still have a concealed weapons permit and the distinction between armed and unarmed doesn't convey enough practical benefit to the character to be worth charging more for it. Indeed, its more of a hassle in some ways (I used to have one). With this model the armed PI ends up paying 2 points, anyways - which fits in terms of utility.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

So, I've been doing some research on armed police in England. It turns out its not as cut and dried as people think. The met allowed officers to decide for themselves if they wished to be armed from the 1880's on. In 1936, however, the policy was changed and London officers could only carry a firearm if authorized to do so by a sergeant for "good reason." This policy remained in effect until the issue was revisisted in 1952 when a constable was shot dead and his sergeant severely wounded, and again in 1966 after the Massacre of Braybrook Street. As a result, until the 1980's, about 17% of the Metropolitain Police were armed. Several incidents in the 80's, however, led to this policy being reversed and the creation of CO19 in 1991. Interestingly, the West Yorkshire Police had been using the ARV model since 1976. At present, the following british police units are known to carry firearms:

 

 

1. CO6: the diplomatic protection group.
   
2. CO19: Scotland Yard. Has 2 types of units. SFO's, which are akin to US Swat Teams. And Armed Vehicle Responders, which are akin to regular US police (equipment wise), though they have three man cars. Most US departments have 1. Some have 2.
   
3. SO1: Prime Ministerial Protection Detail.
   
4. SO14: Royalty Protection Detail. Has 2 units. The Royalty Protection Squad, which provide executive protection. And the Specialty Escort Group, who operate the royal families motorcades.
   
5. The Royal Ulster Constabulary: issued firearms as a matter of course. And these officers may carry when off duty.
   
6. The Ministry of Defense Police: issued firearms as a matter of course.
   
7. Civil Nuclear Constabulary: issued firearms as a matter of course.
   
8. The West Yorkshire Police ARV units.
   
9. The Nottinghamshire Police: have been running armed patrols in St. Anne Meadow's estates since 2000.
   

 

This begs the question: is the unarmed "bobby" a misnomer? The actual law (see Police and Criminal Evidence Act of 1894 and Common Law precedents) indicates an officer of the rank of Inspector or greater can authorize a police officer to be an AFO based on necessity and local circumstance. However, I looked at the 2003 ACPO Manual of Guidance on Police Use of Firearms (the british police federations voluntarily accepted standard). It indicates local Chief Constables have control over AFO recruitment, training, and deployment - with guidelines following the ARV/AFO model used in London. Still, despite cultural resistance to the idea (even among the police), the british police have traditionally had armed responders - or even armed patrols - in areas where it was perceived as being necessary.

[Edsel]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

The source of the original thread is my preparing to run a campaign that borrows heavily from the Shadow Angelus stuff on Mike Surbrook's website. The XSWAT Package Deal has the two perks; XSWAT Police Powers (3 points) essentially this is Federal Police Powers since we are dealing with a large city-state. The package also includes the Perk Concealed Weapon Permit (2-points). Our group got to wondering about this. Looking through the various Law Enforcement Package Deals in the Dark Champions book I see that every one of them includes both the police powers and the weapon carrying perks.

 

I wish I could ask Steve Long about the reasoning of the two perks but since that's a design philosophy question I guess I will just have to make a judgment call on my own. Besides in a 100+100 point game a difference of one or two points in a Package Deal isn't going to cause too much of a problem.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

The source of the original thread is my preparing to run a campaign that borrows heavily from the Shadow Angelus stuff on Mike Surbrook's website. The XSWAT Package Deal has the two perks; XSWAT Police Powers (3 points) essentially this is Federal Police Powers since we are dealing with a large city-state. The package also includes the Perk Concealed Weapon Permit (2-points). Our group got to wondering about this. Looking through the various Law Enforcement Package Deals in the Dark Champions book I see that every one of them includes both the police powers and the weapon carrying perks.

 

I wish I could ask Steve Long about the reasoning of the two perks but since that's a design philosophy question I guess I will just have to make a judgment call on my own. Besides in a 100+100 point game a difference of one or two points in a Package Deal isn't going to cause too much of a problem.

 

Personally, the costs are a legacy from previous editions that needs to be reassessed. They don't reflect actual utility. A private citizen with a concealed weapons permit has nowhere near the social authority of a sworn local police officer, let alone a federal agent. Also, I think there is a conceptual disconnect that has led to the current package deal including both when, in the real world, police officers don't actually need both. Shrike hit their respective applicability on the head in his post (above). I would readjust the costs of the police powers perk rather than require both. Additionally, I don't think a weapons permit is worth two points. I think its worth 1. See my proposed costing above.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

I basically agree with Von D, but I will say that IMO the value of perks is almost always a function of setting / campaign.

 

Personally I use the printed Perks in the rules as a useful benchmark, but I also apply judgment regarding the nature of the setting / campaign in question.

 

In this specific case, requiring a concealed carry permit perk in the first place only makes sense in a campaign where law / custom exists to limit who can do such a thing. In some campaigns or settings within a campaign, it might be fairly open or of smaller scope and only be worth 1 point, in others it might be more restrictive and worth 2, and in others it could conceivably be worth more. It's not impossible to imagine a culture where concealed weapons are 100% verboten and only very small elite and covert govt agencies or some other very rare special case are permitted to carry them; in such a setting the perk could be worth 3, 5, possibly even 10 points.

 

As I always say, it's all relative.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

...but i will say that imo the value of perks is almost always a function of setting / campaign.

 

100%

[JmOz]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

I basically agree with Von D, but I will say that IMO the value of perks is almost always a function of setting / campaign.

 

Personally I use the printed Perks in the rules as a useful benchmark, but I also apply judgment regarding the nature of the setting / campaign in question.

 

In this specific case, requiring a concealed carry permit perk in the first place only makes sense in a campaign where law / custom exists to limit who can do such a thing. In some campaigns or settings within a campaign, it might be fairly open or of smaller scope and only be worth 1 point, in others it might be more restrictive and worth 2, and in others it could conceivably be worth more. It's not impossible to imagine a culture where concealed weapons are 100% verboten and only very small elite and covert govt agencies or some other very rare special case are permitted to carry them; in such a setting the perk could be worth 3, 5, possibly even 10 points.

 

As I always say, it's all relative.

 

From your keys to Steve's brain...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

The law here is that it is illegal to carry a weapon of any sort unless you have lawful authority or reasonable excuse, so even a truncheon is illegal unless you have lawful authority etc - the police do.

 

To have in your possession a firearm you need a firearms certificate.

 

Being a police officer does not get you a firearms certificate automatically but the police will certainly train officers to use firearms - but not all officers want the training. Bournemouth has an armed response unit - I think all forces do - and when we have political conferences here half the officers on the streets seem to have semi automatic weapons - but they will be the ones with the firearms training and certificate.

 

You could therefore be a police officer and not be trained (or permitted) to use a firearm. Police status and firearms certification are seperate, but often connected.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

I do not agree that it must be true. Indeed' date=' conceptually, quite the opposite. Unless the character has the right to carry a firearm independent of his police status they should not purchase separate perks. You are making a cost based argument based on unsupported supposition in terms of how much perks should cost and doesn't reflect how these things two separate concepts work in the [i']real world[/i]. Hero doesn't just require a mathematical-mechanical check. It also requires an effects-concept check. You don't require a conceptually inappropriate perk to appease your math gut. If you don't like the math it would be better to change the cost. There's nothing that says the cost in the book is sacrosanct, or even correct in terms of actual utility.

 

Personally, I would charge something like this:

 

Concealed Weapons Permit: 1

Professional License: 1 (incl. private investigators)*

Local Police Powers: 3 (incl. right to carry)

Federal Police Powers: 4 (incl. right to carry)

 

*Most states in the US have separate armed and unarmed licenses for PIs. However, armed PI's must still have a concealed weapons permit and the distinction between armed and unarmed doesn't convey enough practical benefit to the character to be worth charging more for it. Indeed, its more of a hassle in some ways (I used to have one). With this model the armed PI ends up paying 2 points, anyways - which fits in terms of utility.

 

 

My cost argument is hardly unsupported, or supposition - the rules as they stand peg CWP and LPP at the same cost. Maybe that's wrong or needs updating but - and I'm constantly being upbraided for applying the 'real world' to Hero mechanics - the only assumption I'm making is that not every police force works like the ones in America and there is real utility in seperating the 'cost' of access to police resources (which you can only get by being a police officer) and access to something like a concealed weapons permit, which some countries might allow - in the UK you can not carry a firearm in public even if you do have a firearms certificate unless you are authorised to do so - and private citizens never are, except for secure transport. You can not just tuck a gun in your waistband and go shopping.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

 

Being a police officer does not get you a firearms certificate automatically but the police will certainly train officers to use firearms - but not all officers want the training. Bournemouth has an armed response unit - I think all forces do - and when we have political conferences here half the officers on the streets seem to have semi automatic weapons - but they will be the ones with the firearms training and certificate.

 

This isn't reflected by the Met site, the 2003 ACPO guide your police use (I read the whole thing along with data on CO19 last night), or the fact that, excepting Ulster, your firearms officers may only carry when on duty and assigned to AFO duties. According to the documents I read, AFO may not carry when off duty or even when on duty and not functioning in an SFO/ARV capacity. If they had a permit-certificate in addition to training-authorization they would be allowed to carry when off duty independent of their supervisors' authority or status as a police officer. From the official documents I read, the average British firearms officer does not have this ability. The permit/certificate and police powers/AFO status are two separate things. Again, I assert your firearms officers simply have more training and may have to pay more for their police powers than other officers.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

There are police units in the USA that go unarmed, though this is the exception, not the rule. The main example I can think of are the “auxiliary police” units some large cities have. They are mostly only used for riot control and such, and cannot carry firearms while on duty even if they are personally licensed to carry concealed. I believe some such individuals are often granted more authority than the normal person in terms of making “citizen’s arrest” and such, but generally could not use a firearm to make such an arrest unless they were licensed to carry the gun and had to draw it in self-defense.

 

That having been said, in the US, police power and weapons usually go hand-in-hand. This isn’t the case in all countries, and would be far from the case in many campaign settings, so it makes sense to me that they are separate perks. I can even think of many situations where the perk is about equal in use. I mean, if you shoot someone, even in self-defense with witnesses, but used an illegally concealed weapon, your butt’s going to jail. The ability to walk around armed is worth 2 points or more in many campaigns.

[Vondy]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

My cost argument is hardly unsupported' date=' or supposition - the rules as they stand peg CWP and LPP at the same cost.[/quote']

 

I know what the book cost is. Nor did you merely state the book cost. You asserted two things: 1) that police officers require police powers and a concealed weapons permit, and 2) that if police powers allows one to carry a weapon without a permit the cost must be wrong. Neither necessarily follows without further substantiation. The first is clearly incorrect for the US. Based on the fact that most of your AFOs may not carry when off duty it appears to be incorrect for the UK as well. The second is a subjective call: is the pricing correct based on campaign utility?

 

Maybe that's wrong or needs updating but - and I'm constantly being upbraided for applying the 'real world' to Hero mechanics -

 

Are you applying the real world to hero mechanics in this case? How so? The perk list doesn't reflect British reality at all.

 

...the only assumption I'm making is that not every police force works like the ones in America...

 

I totally agree with this assumption. However...

 

...and there is real utility in seperating the 'cost' of access to police resources (which you can only get by being a police officer) and access to something like a concealed weapons permit' date=' which some countries might allow -in the UK you can not carry a firearm in public even if you do have a firearms certificate unless you are authorised to do so - and private citizens never are, except for secure transport. You can not just tuck a gun in your waistband and go shopping.[/quote']

 

I went and read the FAC materials online (isn't the internet grand?). It has absolutely nothing to do with being a police officer, armed or unarmed. It is for the private ownership of firearms and ammunition, and their transport to a licensed range or approved hunting ground (with additional certificates for that). Your AFOs use police issued firearms and ammunition. They do not own their firearms privately. They do not need the certificate.

 

Further, you call out the problem with your assertion yourself: a FAC/SGC has solely to do with private ownership and secure transport. Authorization for private citizens to carry/conceal firearms is independent of the FAC/SGC - and as you say - "never given." What is more: there is no mention of any requirement that AFOs obtain a FAC/SGC in either the 2003 ACPO document, or the Met's training and doctrine manual (isn't the internet grand?). If they do not privately own and store their weapons and ammo (and it appears they do not) they wouldn't need the FAC/SGC.

 

You're right: All nations function in their own way and perks should reflect that (or whatever genre your are working in). But based on what you've told me and what I've read, your argument doesn't reflect the "real world" in terms of the milieu you are operating in because the perks don't reflect the milieu you are operating in. Indeed, the application of the perks in the official materials doesn't even reflect the American-centric milieu that produced them in terms of what they represent, or their cost. The perk list is not complete or sacrosanct, and the costs aren't inviolate. It frequently makes no sense.

 

For Merry Old England you might do something like this:

 

• Non-Firearms Weapon-Certificate: 1 Point.
  
• Firearms&Ammunition Certificate or Shotgun Certificate: 1 Point.
  
• Civillain or Off-Duty Carry Authorization: 1 Point.
  
• Police Powers: 2 Points.
  
• AFO Status: 1 Point.
  

A british police officer could theoretically have Police Powers, AFO status, and a personal FAC/SGC allowing him to privately own firearms and ammunition. But again, if he doesn't privately own/store his firearm he does not need a FAC/SGC. But even if he had an FAC/SGC [1], he would not be able to carry off-duty without further authorization from his supervisors[2], which would be yet another perk.

 

I might build the perks for the ulster constabulary thus:

 

1. Police Powers: 2 Points.
   
2. AFO Status: 1 Point.
   
3. Off Duty Carry Authorization: 1 Point.
   

However, a typical AVR/SFO officer in most areas would only have:

 

1. Police Powers: 2 Points.
   
2. AFO Status: 1 Point.
   

And then there is the unarmed bobby who likes to hunt quail:

 

1. Police Powers: 2 Points.
   
2. Shotgun Certificate: 1 Point.
   

But he cannot carry a firearm on or off duty! He can just take his shotgun to the range or on hunting expeditions.

And then there is gun-bunny gamer-run bobby who privately owns his own guns and works in the special "carry at all times and smoke 'em if you've got 'em" version of various SDC units that are ridiculous realistically speaking... but fun to play:

 

1. Police Powers: 2 Points.
   
2. AFO Status: 1 Point.
   
3. Off-Duty Carry Authrization: 1 Point.
   
4. FAC: 1 Point.
   
5. SGC: 1 Point.
   
6. Non-Legal Weapons Certificate: 1 Point.
   

Ah. To be a gamer... such joy.

[1]I don't see why he would need one unless he

privately

owns and stores his firearm.

[2]As I read it. I am merely a hyperliterate American-Israeli fellow with a CrimJ degree, past experience as a private investigator and reserve officer, and a penchant for reading police manuals and related law codes. I am neither british, nor deeply acquainted with your police.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

This isn't reflected by the Met site' date=' the 2003 ACPO guide your police use (I read the whole thing along with data on CO19 last night), or the fact that, excepting Ulster, your firearms officers may only carry when [u']on duty[/u] and assigned to AFO duties. According to the documents I read, AFO may not carry when off duty or even when on duty and not functioning in an SFO/ARV capacity. If they had a permit-certificate in addition to training-authorization they would be allowed to carry when off duty independent of their supervisors' authority or status as a police officer. From the official documents I read, the average British firearms officer does not have this ability. The permit/certificate and police powers/AFO status are two separate things. Again, I assert your firearms officers simply have more training and may have to pay more for their police powers than other officers.

 

In the UK you can not habitually carry a firearm in public as a private citizen, or unless required to do so in the course of authorised empolyment no matter who you are and certificate or not. There is therefore a difference between a police officer and firearms officer - the latter have additional training and authorisation, and that should probably be reflected in a cost difference - an additional cost for a perk allowing you to carry a firearm (albeit in the course of employment), or a CWP on top of police powers.

 

On re-costing, Hero makes you pay a point for a passport: generally a CWP would be more valuable than a passport (depends on the situation, of course) to a PC so I think that if you do re-cost either passports should be 'free' or CWP needs to cost more than 1 point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

I know what the book cost is. Nor did you merely state the book cost. You asserted two things: 1) that police officers require police powers and a concealed weapons permit, and 2) that if police powers allows one to carry a weapon without a permit the cost must be wrong. Neither necessarily follows without further substantiation. The first is clearly incorrect for the US. Based on the fact that most of your AFOs may not carry when off duty it appears to be incorrect for the UK as well. The second is a subjective call: is the pricing correct based on campaign utility?

 

 

 

Are you applying the real world to hero mechanics in this case? How so? The perk list doesn't reflect British reality at all.

 

 

 

I totally agree with this assumption. However...

 

 

 

I went and read the FAC materials online (isn't the internet grand?). It has absolutely nothing to do with being a police officer, armed or unarmed. It is for the private ownership of firearms and ammunition, and their transport to a licensed range or approved hunting ground (with additional certificates for that). Your AFOs use police issued firearms and ammunition. They do not own their firearms privately. They do not need the certificate.

 

Further, you call out the problem with your assertion yourself: a FAC/SGC has solely to do with private ownership and secure transport. Authorization for private citizens to carry/conceal firearms is independent of the FAC/SGC - and as you say - "never given." What is more: there is no mention of any requirement that AFOs obtain a FAC/SGC in either the 2003 ACPO document, or the Met's training and doctrine manual (isn't the internet grand?). If they do not privately own and store their weapons and ammo (and it appears they do not) they wouldn't need the FAC/SGC.

 

You're right: All nations function in their own way and perks should reflect that (or whatever genre your are working in). But based on what you've told me and what I've read, your argument doesn't reflect the "real world" in terms of the milieu you are operating in because the perks don't reflect the milieu you are operating in. Indeed, the application of the perks in the official materials doesn't even reflect the American-centric milieu that produced them in terms of what they represent, or their cost. The perk list is not complete or sacrosanct, and the costs aren't inviolate. It frequently makes no sense.

 

For Merry Old England you might do something like this:

 

• Non-Firearms Weapon-Certificate: 1 Point.
  
• Firearms&Ammunition Certificate or Shotgun Certificate: 1 Point.
  
• Civillain or Off-Duty Carry Authorization: 1 Point.
  
• Police Powers: 2 Points.
  
• AFO Status: 1 Point.
  

A british police officer could theoretically have Police Powers, AFO status, and a personal FAC/SGC allowing him to privately own firearms and ammunition. But again, if he doesn't privately own/store his firearm he does not need a FAC/SGC. But even if he had an FAC/SGC [1], he would not be able to carry off-duty without further authorization from his supervisors[2], which would be yet another perk.

 

I might build the perks for the ulster constabulary thus:

 

1. Police Powers: 2 Points.
   
2. AFO Status: 1 Point.
   
3. Off Duty Carry Authorization: 1 Point.
   

However, a typical AVR/SFO officer in most areas would only have:

 

1. Police Powers: 2 Points.
   
2. AFO Status: 1 Point.
   

And then there is the unarmed bobby who likes to hunt quail:

 

1. Police Powers: 2 Points.
   
2. Shotgun Certificate: 1 Point.
   

But he cannot carry a firearm on or off duty! He can just take his shotgun to the range or on hunting expeditions.

And then there is gun-bunny gamer-run bobby who privately owns his own guns and works in the special "carry at all times and smoke 'em if you've got 'em" version of various SDC units that are ridiculous realistically speaking... but fun to play:

 

1. Police Powers: 2 Points.
   
2. AFO Status: 1 Point.
   
3. Off-Duty Carry Authrization: 1 Point.
   
4. FAC: 1 Point.
   
5. SGC: 1 Point.
   
6. Non-Legal Weapons Certificate: 1 Point.
   

Ah. To be a gamer... such joy.

[1]I don't see why he would need one unless he

privately

owns and stores his firearm.

[2]As I read it. I am merely a hyperliterate American-Israeli fellow with a CrimJ degree, past experience as a private investigator and reserve officer, and a penchant for reading police manuals and related law codes. I am neither british, nor deeply acquainted with your police.

 

I've obviously repped you oo recently to do it again - this is an interesting discussion, and well thought out (at least by you )

 

In the UK we have some of the toughest gun control laws in the world. You can not get authorisation to carry a firearm except in the course of certain employments where it is deemed necessary. A private investigator, for instance, could never carry a gun in public no matter how dangerous he thinks the situation might get. There are some authorisations that might seems a little weird: farmers can carry shotguns (not while doing the shopping, you understand, but on their land for pest control) and authorisatins and exceptions can be found (we don't have the most straightforward legal system), but generally, unless you are int he forces, police or are authorised by government contract you can not carry a gun in England.

 

Expect lots of farmer PCs....

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

If I ever go back to Scotland I'm going to have to become a farmer...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Police Powers & Weapon Permit

 

In certain campaigns I might do otherwise, but I think in general I'd require the permit be purchased by police officers (or other officials) who can so carry. If every officer is trained in interrogation we don't give them the Interrogation skill for free; we require that they purchase it (unless there is good story justification) to have the job. Since there are probably real world examples of police officers (somewhere) who can't carry concealed weapons, I'd make the two independent mechanically even if they may not always be dramatically.