bigbywolfe Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Total confusion, please help. From the FAQ: If a character performs a Sweep with a Martial Maneuver, do 3-point Combat Skill Levels with Martial Arts apply to the attack? Yes. But then... Also from the FAQ: If a character performs a Sweep with a Martial Maneuver, do 3-point Combat Skill Levels with Martial Arts apply to the attack? No. The character is performing a Sweep, which isn’t a Martial Maneuver, even if it incorporates a Martial Maneuver in this instance. But he could use a 5-point CSL with HTH Combat. Sorry if this has been covered, but I'm at a loss and my search-fu is weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion *blinks* Wow. Well... I say yes, I agree with the first one. I'm of the opinion the Sweep is a secondary action being performed with a primary attack (from a normal swing of the fist, to a weapon or a martial maneuver). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion Also, when you look up Martial Arts the "yes" answer comes up first but the "no" answer comes up twice. Does that mean anything as to which may be "more official"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion not really. It just means that before the web-site rebuild it was in multiple FAQs, they used to be divided roughly by type of questions and/or sourcebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion Personally, I'd be more strict in the other direction. I'd say that neither 2-point levels with Sweep (or 3-point levels with Sweep and some other two maneuvers), nor 3-point levels with Martial Arts, would apply to this attack. Why? Because it's not a pure Sweep, and it's not a pure Martial Maneuver. It's kinda both and neither. I'd require 5 or 8-point levels if you wanted to apply levels to this attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion Also' date=' when you look up Martial Arts the "yes" answer comes up first but the "no" answer comes up twice. Does that mean anything as to which may be "more official"?[/quote'] If you change the ruleset to only 5er the FAQ answer is reduced to just one. If a character performs a Sweep with a Martial Maneuver, do 3-point Combat Skill Levels with Martial Arts apply to the attack? No. The character is performing a Sweep, which isn’t a Martial Maneuver, even if it incorporates a Martial Maneuver in this instance. But he could use a 5-point CSL with HTH Combat. We'd need to check with Steve to confirm for certain, but since it is essentially the most recent answer it's the one I'd go with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion Personally I'll still go with the first one, the yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion I'm working on a new world religion based on the principle of uncertainty, and I might have to include this example in one of the Life Manuals Let us see. Sweep is a combat maneouvre, but, it seems to me, rather different from most - it can not be used on its own, but acts like a modifier for other maneouvres, a sort of meta-maneouvre. It allows you to use HtH attacks more than once in a phase. The HtH attack may have OCV and DCV modifiers, and Sweep applies penalties to both. If you want to Sweep Martial Punch would it not make sense that I can use levels that apply to the martial punch with that but not with the sweep? Generally the distinction is meaningless but might not be if I had MA PSLs. I'd say that the rules are that you can not use MA CLSs with a sweep, but I'd question why that makes any sense, given the unique nature of sweep, especially as a flurry of blows has a distinctly martial arts flavour to it anyway. Of course it could be that to use your art most efficiently you need to go outside your art - no one is saying you cannot sweep with Martial Strike and use levels - they just have to be more expensive ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion The reason I say yes is because if you have 3pt CSLs with any other attack (either a Purchased Hand Attack or Killing Hand Attack, or Equipment in the form of a Weapon) you can use the CSLs. I see no reason to add another layer of complexity to combat and associated modifiers by saying Purchased Martial Maneuvers can't do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion Sweep / Rapid Fire is odd. It's kind of a Maneuver and its kind of not. The way I've come to think of it over the years is as a modifier to other actions similar to and in opposition to Multiple Power Attacks, but that's just me. Opposition isn't the right word...more like the obverse. The problem with allowing specialized CSL's to apply to a Sweep is that a Sweep can combo various attacks and the CSL's may not apply to all of them. Like a Sweep for Martial Strike and a standard Grab. So, I would say that if the CSL's covered all of the attacks being included in the Sweep then they would apply, but if even one of the attacks included were not covered by the CSL's then they could not be applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion Okay, follow up question. Say you're playing a "Heroic" level game with a character with unarmed martial arts and he will also be using weapons but not with MArtial Maneuvers. How much would it cost to buy Combat Skill Levels only usable to offset the penalties caused by the Sweep maneuver? I was thinking this would be a 5 or 8 point CSL, since it can be used with any (non-ranged) attack; however, those Skill Levels could not be used unless a Sweep is being preformed. So, how would you price that out? A 3 point CSL? An 8 point CSL with a limitation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion Sweep / Rapid Fire is odd. It's kind of a Maneuver and its kind of not. The way I've come to think of it over the years is as a modifier to other actions similar to and in opposition to Multiple Power Attacks, but that's just me. Opposition isn't the right word...more like the obverse. The problem with allowing specialized CSL's to apply to a Sweep is that a Sweep can combo various attacks and the CSL's may not apply to all of them. Like a Sweep for Martial Strike and a standard Grab. So, I would say that if the CSL's covered all of the attacks being included in the Sweep then they would apply, but if even one of the attacks included were not covered by the CSL's then they could not be applied. That makes perfect sense: you can MPA a martial strike and an offensive strike and get the MA levels with it, and MPA doesn't apply any penalties to OCV and DCV. Sweep does penalise both OCV and DCV and it seems mean to prevent the use of MA levels with sweep, just because it is defined as a maneouvre. The rule, as derived from the FAQ seems clear, but I'm not sure it is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion So what about my follow up question? What would you charge for CSL's bought only to offset the Sweep penalty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion 2 point OCV only CSLs w/ Sweep specifically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion I'd make 'em Penalty Skill Levels, as KS said - 2pt PSLs is what I'd suggest as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion Hmm...How do PSLs work with a halved DCV? Presumably you need 2 to offset each -1 you actually suffer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Re: Sweeps and Martial Maneuvers and serious confusion a) As I understand it he's asking for the OCV penalty of Sweep, not the 1/2 DCV penalty. For DCV it's just 5 point DCV levels with the Only to Determine Half DCV -1 mod, and possibly more of Sweep only if desired. I don't have a rulebook handy, but as memory serves youre not supposed to buy PSL's to offset OCV penalties on attacks, though this is a very murky and arbitrary cut off as I've remarked on before (because Hit Locs and Range Levels are offset w/ PSL's and what are they but OCV penalties?). But, really, its just a label anyway; points for effect is what actually matters; I wouldnt blink if a player defined it either way so long as the accounting all worked out. (Hopefully PSL's CSL's and SL's will be unified in 6th Edition). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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