Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

[ajackson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

So, ponder if these things can be done with AVAD (technically, we're not talking proper defenses here, so it might not be):

 

'Hurricane Wind': this is an attack that does knockdown/knockback, but which applies greater force against larger objects, because they have more area to apply force to. EB, knockback only, AVAD (knockback resistance + size CV modifier) -- i.e. 3 levels of growth (normally +3 knockback resistance) would only give 1 point resistance because of increased size mod. Knockback isn't really the primary effect of a power, so doing knockback resistance based on it is weird, but this seems plausible.

'Earthquake': since it's really moving the ground, the amount of force will depend on the mass of the object (this is why brick buildings do badly). Also, does physical damage to objects that are attached to the ground. AVAD (knockback is resisted by KB resist - weight; damage is resisted by PD - weight, and is all-or-nothing vs being attached to the ground). Similar to the above.

'Gravity': again, gravity is proportional to weight. Here, we have TK (one direction only); AVAD (resisted by strength - weight), with various other modifiers to reflect the fact you can't really 'break free' of gravity, you can just succeed in moving despite it. Strength really isn't a defense per se, making this a particularly strange construct.

'Psychic Invisibility': the Shadow clouds minds; there's no reason enhanced senses would help here. Invisibility (AVAD: mental defense or no ego). Enhanced senses aren't really a 'defense' per se at all, so this is a very odd construct, but very useful (likewise, things like 'invisibility vs machines' would be AVAD (biological senses)).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

So' date=' sure the PC who sells their mOCV down to a 1 saves X points over the normal character who has 3 mOCV but I'll do my best to make sure that PC gets X points worth of mOCV trouble for it. There's your balancing factor.[/quote']Do we even know if 6E permits selling back Characteristics? Without Figured Characteristics, there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back. Why would any hero want Characteristics below the baseline of a Normal in any genre?

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Do we even know if 6E permits selling back Characteristics? Without Figured Characteristics' date=' there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back. Why would any hero want Characteristics below the baseline of a Normal in any genre?[/quote']

 

All Characteristics except more than one Figured have always been sell-able, I've seen no indication that this will change. And just because few would want to sell them back doesn't mean there should be a restriction about it, can you think of any balance issues in doing so that need an extra rule to restrict them?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

While STR is the most often sold back Char ... I would see no reason to remove them from the game in any way. There'd be no point in such a limit to a system that appears to be adding more options. Why randomly remove one.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Do we even know if 6E permits selling back Characteristics? Without Figured Characteristics' date=' there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back. Why would any hero want Characteristics below the baseline of a Normal in any genre?[/quote']

 

Low powered normals (say in the -25 to +25 point range) often have to sell back at least one Characteristic to have a viable character, and some GMs like to put their games there to start with. It can be damn fun to try to squeak by playing teens or children or goblins who don't have enough growth or experience to take anything for granted. Try it some time.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I'm in a Horror campaign on Hero Central that did just that.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Do we even know if 6E permits selling back Characteristics? Without Figured Characteristics' date=' there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back. Why would any hero want Characteristics below the baseline of a Normal in any genre?[/quote']

 

Not any genre. Some guys where you play extremely low powered characters (even children) almost require it. And some GMs treat 8 as the base stat for regular Joe not 10 (It represents the cinematic trope that even ostensibly "normal" heroes are a little better off) The official standard seems to bounce around a little.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Low powered normals (say in the -25 to +25 point range) often have to sell back at least one Characteristic to have a viable character' date=' and some GMs like to put their games there to start with. It can be damn fun to try to squeak by playing teens or children or goblins who don't have enough growth or experience to take anything for granted. Try it some time. [/quote']I'm well aware of how it works in earlier versions. My question was if we had any confirmation that 6E actually permits selling back Characteristics. As I noted upthread, without Figured Characteristics there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back.

[Netzilla]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I'm well aware of how it works in earlier versions. My question was if we had any confirmation that 6E actually permits selling back Characteristics. As I noted upthread' date=' without Figured Characteristics there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back.[/quote']

 

I'd be very surprised if the option of having below-average characteristics went away. After all, some characters currently choose to have below-average INT, PRE & COM; none of which have ever been tied to Figured Chars.

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I'm well aware of how it works in earlier versions. My question was if we had any confirmation that 6E actually permits selling back Characteristics. As I noted upthread' date=' without Figured Characteristics there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back.[/quote']

 

And you've yet to show any reason why this would change, neither a post from Steve saying it was going to nor any balance issues that changing a long-standing rule would need to address nor any tangible benefit from adding such a restriction. But, technically, no, there has been no public confirmation. But it's confusing that the question has even come up without any apparent reason.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I'm well aware of how it works in earlier versions. My question was if we had any confirmation that 6E actually permits selling back Characteristics. As I noted upthread' date=' without Figured Characteristics there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back.[/quote']

 

It'd make it harder to model a whole lot of things - especially animals in the bestiary.

 

I'd see no reason why it'd be made harder (i.e. require GM Permission) to sell back your pirate captains parrot's Characteristics. . .

 

so yes, we will still need a reason to sell them back - primarily because Hero is more than just the Player Characters. It's a whole lot of things.

 

Not letting them be sold back would force Normals to be the same level as the Heroes.

 

The question isn't even warranted, with or without the issue of Figurged Characteristics.

 

 

EDIT: Also - if selling back anything weren't permitted, why start above 0 baseline? It'd be the same effective thing as starting at 0 as it would to disallow selling below starting.

[Vurbal]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I already have a house rule very similar to this so (not surprisingly) I think it's a great change. It's the kind of change that makes me think I should buy 6E as soon as I can instead of sticking with 5E for a few more months.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I also would protest having to take a Disadvantage just to play a 100 pound weakling.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I also would protest having to take a Disadvantage just to play a 100 pound weakling.

 

I agree that this should not be a disadvantage. However, the system is presently inconsistent in this regard, in my opinion. If I want a character who falls short of the baseline in characteristics, or running or swimming, I sell back these abilities, and offset the cost of my "above baseline" abilities.

 

But if my character lacks other abilities provided by the baseline (he cannot see, or hear, for example), he must take a disadvantage - he cannot "sell back" this baseline ability. Daredevil is a classic example of this. Assuming the character has compensatory senses - he is exactly as capable as a character with neither enhanced senses nor a physical limitation - he has used 25 points of disadvantages and spent 25 character points. *

 

I would rather see the character able to sell back base abilities consistently across the board. However, I would prefer to see ALL sellbacks eliminated (take it as a disadvantage) rather than have the mixed structure we presently have.

 

We'll know whether there have been any changes in this regard when 6e is released.

 

* Actually, it's worse in that the RAW encourage the GM to reduce the disadvantage points for Blindness because the character has compensatory senses, but does not give him a discount on the price of those compensatory senses.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

So' date=' ponder if these things can be done with AVAD (technically, we're not talking proper defenses here, so it might not be):[/quote']

I'm not sure these things are even in the right category for AVAD.

 

'Hurricane Wind' - as you've described it, it doesn't sound like an AVAD at all, just a regular EB with a Limitation of "Knockback Only".

 

'Earthquake' - don't confuse an attack that doesn't work against certain targets with an NND/AVLD/AVAD. It could just be a limitation "Does not work on targets that aren't on the ground."

 

'Gravity' - TK already doesn't act against a defense at all, so I don't see what AVAD has to do with it.

 

'Psychic Invisibility' - and Invisibility isn't even an Attack (which is what the first A in AVAD stands for.)

[ajackson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I'm not sure these things are even in the right category for AVAD.

Hence the reason I commented.

'Hurricane Wind' - as you've described it' date=' it doesn't sound like an AVAD at all, just a regular EB with a Limitation of "Knockback Only".[/quote']

Knockback resistance is a defense. Using something other than knockback resistance (or, for that matter, modified knockback resistance) is thus an alternate defense.

'Earthquake' - don't confuse an attack that doesn't work against certain targets with an NND/AVLD/AVAD. It could just be a limitation "Does not work on targets that aren't on the ground."

The AVAD part is ignoring defense based on weight.

'Gravity' - TK already doesn't act against a defense at all' date=' so I don't see what AVAD has to do with it.[/quote']

Strength acts somewhat like a defense against TK, as does mass, and having TK that isn't resisted by strength/mass is not entirely absurd.

'Psychic Invisibility' - and Invisibility isn't even an Attack (which is what the first A in AVAD stands for.)

It can be thought of as 'you cannot see me, defense: enhanced senses'.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

It'd make it harder to model a whole lot of things - especially animals in the bestiary.

 

I'd see no reason why it'd be made harder (i.e. require GM Permission) to sell back your pirate captains parrot's Characteristics.

I know you likely have a much better idea on how 6E will work, but there's no reason that reducing Characteristics automatically implies selling them. It could be that if one needs a number to be lower, one simply lowers it with no corresponding point refund. So if pirate captain's parrot needs 1 BODY, you simply give him 1 BODY.

 

I know that's probably wrong, but I feel like being argumentative today.

[Lucius]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Do we even know if 6E permits selling back Characteristics? Without Figured Characteristics' date=' there's going to be a lot less probability of having "excess" Characteristics in the first place; much less needing a mechanism to sell them back. Why would any hero want Characteristics below the baseline of a Normal in any genre?[/quote']

 

 

I can't believe you would even ask that.

 

Uh, the shortest and simplest answer I can think of is, "To fulfill a character concept."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thought that was blindingly obvious....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I know you likely have a much better idea on how 6E will work' date=' but there's no reason that[i'] reducing[/i] Characteristics automatically implies selling them. It could be that if one needs a number to be lower, one simply lowers it with no corresponding point refund. So if pirate captain's parrot needs 1 BODY, you simply give him 1 BODY.

 

I know that's probably wrong, but I feel like being argumentative today.

 

Along with the "you get what you pay for" is a corresponding "you get back for what you've reduced.

 

To address Hughs comment on Disad vs Sell Back - sight is a binary aspect. You either have it or you dnt. STR is not, since it's on a 1 pt scale you either "sell" it back or we have a really minute scale for Disads.

 

I'm ok with them being different. But if we went one way or the other I'd lean to selling back Sight or Hearing or What Have You.

[Gary]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I'd actually prefer disads rather than sellbacks. Sellbacks become especially pernicious when dealing with Summons and similiar structures since they allow the summons to be more points than paid for by selling back abilities worthless to the summons. A 100 pt summons can easily be 125-150 through judicious use of sellbacks for things the summons might not really need.

 

If only disads were allowed, a 100 pt summons can still only be 100 even selling back Swimming or Int or Ego for a combat summons, or Str, Con, Body for a scout summons, etc.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I think we used to count sold back Characteristics toward the max Disadvantage points anyway. But being able to sell them back gives a hell of a lot better resolution than the 5, 10, 15, etc. points that Disadvantages come in and it gives consistency, since you can buy a Characteristic back up at the same rate for which it was sold back. I also like the fact that being able to "sell back" Characteristics makes their default starting point a trivial detail and not really a hinge point of the system.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Along with the "you get what you pay for" is a corresponding "you get back for what you've reduced.

 

To address Hughs comment on Disad vs Sell Back - sight is a binary aspect. You either have it or you dnt. STR is not, since it's on a 1 pt scale you either "sell" it back or we have a really minute scale for Disads.

 

I'm ok with them being different. But if we went one way or the other I'd lean to selling back Sight or Hearing or What Have You.

 

Look at the animals in the bestiary that Cannot Leap. We already have that 1 point increment disadvantage, as they get a disad equal to the point cost their leaping would otherwise have.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

Look at the animals in the bestiary that Cannot Leap. We already have that 1 point increment disadvantage' date=' as they get a disad equal to the point cost their leaping would otherwise have.[/quote']

 

I don't like the Cannot Leap Disad at all. You already get points for selling back your Leaping Score. It's double dipping IMO to also take a Disad if you've sold Leaping to 0.

 

It's also an artifact of negative STR and still being able to Leap if you have both light weight, low STR and 0" Base Leaping. It's a bizarre special case because of bizarre rules allowances.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

I don't like the Cannot Leap Disad at all. You already get points for selling back your Leaping Score. It's double dipping IMO to also take a Disad if you've sold Leaping to 0.

 

It's also an artifact of negative STR and still being able to Leap if you have both light weight, low STR and 0" Base Leaping. It's a bizarre special case because of bizarre rules allowances.

 

Actually, none of these builds sell back Leaping. They might sell back Running, or INT or EGO, but their inability to Leap was taken as a Physical Limitation, described out with severity and frequency, but only awarded points equal to the value of the Leaping. IIRC, Elephants and Rhinos have it.

[torchwolf]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

 

An excellent evolution of these Advantages.

 

Steve Long himself already introduced ACV in Ultimate Mentalist (p77) - though this is naturally both revised and expanded; I suspected this would be done somewhere in 6E. It will be interesting to see how this connects with the Works Against [CHAR] Advantage/Limitation (UM, p65) which is built similarly but was mainly intended for variants on Entangle and Transform.

 

ACV & AVAD also opens up the possibility of adding optional CHAR much easier; all you need is to define 2 new CVs that match the new (or existing) CHAR.

 

Possibly you could also use this to inflict lethal damage on any CHAR other than BODY... which, in the interest of having more options, would actually be a good reason to reintroduce COM.

 

8 ways to die is better than 7... or is it just me...

 

 

On a side note, I hope more text will be spent in defining the CHAR values comparative to "average human abilities", just to make it easier on new HERO gamers who want to get a baseline (especially now that Figureds went away). I can remember a brief such discussion in Champions III (the supplement) but have not seen anything like it collected in one place since (or have I missed it?). The benchmarks in 5ER are just values on a table, which are also inconsistent with 5ER CHAR breakpoints (i mean CV, ECV, Skill Roll bases, not PD/ED/etc). OK, it's GM's choice, campaign guidelines, character concept, etc., but a descriptive guideline is useful when you start up, even if you do what you want in this system.