Shaking up the Speed Chart

[JmOz]

Hey all, I just read Steve's HEROglyphs article from DH #12, got me thinking, I want to here all the various ideas people have for messing with the speed chart.

 

THe idea I will be using in my next few games I got from the people at Pinnicle games (Deadlands/Savage World), modified for Hero.

 

I will deal each character a number of cards equal to his/her Speed, then count down, once I cycle through (Ace-King-queen...two) will be a turn (12 seconds long)

 

Another method I thought of while reading steve's article was everyone brings a number of D12's equal to there speed and roll, what ever number comes up is the phases they go on (So a speed 4 would roll four dice, and get four actions)

[Tim]

Re: Shaking up the Speed Chart

 

 

A problem with both approaches. What if someone is dealt/roll two identical numbers?

 

Also you probably want to strip either the King or Ace out of the card deck to keep a round 12 cards long.

 

Originally posted by JmOz Hey all, I just read Steve's HEROglyphs article from DH #12, got me thinking, I want to here all the various ideas people have for messing with the speed chart.

 

THe idea I will be using in my next few games I got from the people at Pinnicle games (Deadlands/Savage World), modified for Hero.

 

I will deal each character a number of cards equal to his/her Speed, then count down, once I cycle through (Ace-King-queen...two) will be a turn (12 seconds long)

 

Another method I thought of while reading steve's article was everyone brings a number of D12's equal to there speed and roll, what ever number comes up is the phases they go on (So a speed 4 would roll four dice, and get four actions)

[JmOz]

I would allow them two actions that phase, I can see your point about the King/Ace, but at the same time I don't see an extra phase for versitiity being a killer for balance

 

The nice thing about the Cards is you could give the Joker card special abilities (Free recovery + Action?)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by JmOz

I would allow them two actions that phase, I can see your point about the King/Ace, but at the same time I don't see an extra phase for versitiity being a killer for balance

 

The nice thing about the Cards is you could give the Joker card special abilities (Free recovery + Action?)

 

Unlike a lot of randomizing mechanics for the Speed system, this one at least ensures all characters get their correct number of actions each turn, which prevents luck becoming an excessive factor. I'd be inclined to treat doubles as getting an extra action that phase after everyone else moving in that phase has their first action.

 

I'd leave the jokers out just to avoid the additional luck factor, but it depends how much you want luck to enter into the picture.

[Trebuchet]

What exactly is it you're trying to accomplish with these variations on the Speed Chart? Randomness? Unpredictability?

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

What exactly is it you're trying to accomplish with these variations on the Speed Chart? Randomness? Unpredictability?

 

Actually I wanted to see other peoples ideas for changing the speed system around.

 

Personaly I'm trying to do a few things:

 

1-reduce paperwork (no speed chart),

 

2-create some random chance while not hosing either low or high speed characters (Many of the systems I have seen for randimising favor one or the other---mostly high speed),

 

3- Simplifing the game for players (Easier to use a deck of cards that everyone knows that , okay I have a speed of 4 so I go on 3, 6, 9, 12, ohh but now I just got Aided 30 points of speed, so now I am speed 7, what are my phases now)

 

4- To experiment, sometimes I enjoy trying new twists on things

[Captain Obvious]

I've never found the speed chart to be a problem, especially in heroic level games, where everyone has a 3 or 4, except mooks who have a 2. The biggest problems I've ever had have been in superhero games, where the speed 8 speedster, the speed 7 martial artist, the speed 6 energy blaster, and the speed 5 brick were fighting a bunch of speed 3 agents and speed 4 agent-leaders, and trying to get the speed 2 civilians out of the way. Even that wasn't too horrible.

 

Then again, I played Car Wars with the 10 segment speed chart, and found nothing wrong with it either....

[Farkling]

Your Mileage May Vary

 

You still need to track the Speed phases in some manner...we ran a combat sequence at Hexacon between Heroes and Villains...and we tossed the speed chart for cards. Everybody got one action per SPD point. Guess what the hang up was?

 

Aborting phases. Some of the low speed characters never spent their card, and pulled a sequence of actions. One of the mid characters simply saved all his actions...and proceeded to maul the high speed target at the end of the turn.

And if you allow holds, you must collect the cards or demand actions if multiple people are holding. They cannot just continue to hold when you have made your way through the DEX order.

 

Oh wait....you are going to try dealing the cards to the players as PHASE markers? I got a 3,5,7,10 so those are my phases for movement? Seems arbitrary...what if I draw 9,10,11,12 ?? I'm gonna get squashed before I even get to move...

 

My whole view on the objections to the SPEED chart is this:: Most of the objectors have slow characters and/or no concept of holding phases. They waited and waited for their action and couldn't wait anymore...so they spent it. So when they needed to USE the HELD phase...they had to abort instead and thus the cycle ensues.

 

Players I have had always got annoyed when the SPD 3 and SPD 4 agent squad simply unloaded on them during Phase 8...and half made their Temamwork rolls. I heard crys of "half of them can't move", to which I reply, "they waited from 6, didn't you notice they weren't moving then?"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Your Mileage May Vary

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Oh wait....you are going to try dealing the cards to the players as PHASE markers? I got a 3,5,7,10 so those are my phases for movement? Seems arbitrary...what if I draw 9,10,11,12 ?? I'm gonna get squashed before I even get to move...

 

I think the point is to make when you move less predictable. The possibility a 2 SPD guy moves on 1 and 2, and the 8 SPD guy moves twice each on 9-12 is a risk you take for the shake up. I don't see the need myself, but some people are frustrated with the fact that, after a turn or two, we all know when each opponent has his next phase.

 

I think a partial answer to your concern is that you can abort your Ph 9 move, if desired. In fact, with those cards, it may be the way to go. "Abort to start my force field, martal dodge, all levels on DCV." On phase 10, you have 3 actions coming and most opponents will have used most/all their actions (uness they noticed you weren't moving and held a reserved phase somewhere). To me, that abuse is as bad as anything we see with the current speed chart, so shaking up the phases really doesn't change things (except for a brief period as we adjust to the new structure and figure out how to maximize effectiveness under it).

[Damon_Dusk]

I'll repost my Round-Based Initiative system from an earlier thread. Still haven't tested it...

 

- Combat is based on a 12 Second (Segment) Turn.

- Characters determine their Speed normally.

- The turn begins with the character with the highest effective DEX (Initiative) taking one action (or holding), then going to the character with the next highest Initiative, and so on until all participating combatants have taken 1 action. This sequence of actions is called a Round.

- Another Round is begun if any characters have a Speed of 2 or more and is resolved in the order above.

- The base number of rounds in a turn are determined by the slowest SPD of all characters in the combat. Faster characters can insert their extra actions at the end of any round, but only 1 action each (initiative is determined by effective DEX as usual), unless it is at the end of the round, where they can use their remaining actions.

- Rounds continue until characters have taken as many actions equal to their Speed.

- When all characters have used all of their actions, a new Turn is begun and the sequence starts over.

- At the End of every Turn, each character takes a free Post-12 Recovery.

- Characters holding actions can only have 1 held action at a time and any actions they might have taken during a Round are lost in place of the held action.

 

Notes:

1.) Characters performing Haymaker or other 1+1 Segment Maneuvers begin the action on their effective DEX on their action. The action happens on the same effective DEX in the next Round, and their next action (provided they have one) happens at the end of that round, before faster characters insert extra actions. They cannot insert a 3rd action in this round even if they have more actions than the base rounds.

[Ndreare]

Frtom my experiance the only two ways of adjusting the speed system that have worked for me are...

 

1: Use the existing system in reverse. Basicly count down from 12 instead of up from 1.

 

2: Ignore speed altogether. Assume every one gets one action per phase, 4 phases per turn and if someone wants more than one action they perform a sweep manuver.

[Mr. Negative]

Re: Shaking up the Speed Chart

 

Originally posted by JmOz

I will deal each character a number of cards equal to his/her Speed, then count down, once I cycle through (Ace-King-queen...two) will be a turn (12 seconds long)

 

Another method I thought of while reading steve's article was everyone brings a number of D12's equal to there speed and roll, what ever number comes up is the phases they go on (So a speed 4 would roll four dice, and get four actions)

 

I like this idea, but there is a different permuation I thought of (some of which is stolen from multiplayer games of WFB & WH40K).

 

Separate the deck into each suit (so that you have 4 sets of Ace-King, Queen, etc. Instead of dealing each player cards, let them note which Segments they get their actions on. Shuffle one suit of cards, and deal them one at a time. The number that comes up is the phase that goes then. Resolve all actions on that phase in normal order, then deal the next card. Everyone gets a free "post-12" recover on the Ace. This prevents you from having to have more than one deck of cards, doesn't require cards to be dealt for the opposition, and randomizes the post-12 period as well.

 

You can handle held actions by allowing them to hold an action, once their number has been drawn, until their number comes up again. You allow them to abort, but they can't do it again until their number has been drawn (and they don't get that action). This system also easily allows you to handle changes in SPD, in that the character simply has a different set of phases to act on when drawn (admittedly, this may well result in a net gain or loss of phases, but most of these systems don't have a good way to handle speed changes anyway).

 

There is a lot more uncertainty in this method, but it does still allow the player to predict (somewhat) the action sequence, as they will know when a slow character has used all of their actions, and, from the cards already dealt, they will have a good idea of when their remaining actions might fall. On the other hand, it is certainly much more unpredictable than standard HERO (and if you sort and shuffle each suit in advance, you can go for 48 game phases without needing a shuffle).

 

Let the players draw the cards for added effect. Despite the randomizing effects of the shuffle, most gamers will blame the poor slob who pulls a bad number from the deck, and cheer the genius who pulls a good number, for much hilarity.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Shaking up the Speed Chart

 

Originally posted by Mr. Negative

I like this idea, but there is a different permuation I thought of (some of which is stolen from multiplayer games of WFB & WH40K).

 

Separate the deck into each suit (so that you have 4 sets of Ace-King, Queen, etc.

 

I've seen similar systems described before. I'd use Ace as Ph 1 so 2-10 also match up. King for PS 12 and J/Q for 11/12. I've considered this not for a wholesale change, but for a "time is out of joint" effect. If you use the whole deck (or more than one), it can enhance the randomization effect.

[DarkFuture]

One thing I've done...

 

...based off something someone said in a forum here, was:

*get a bunch of business cards

*write character names on a number of cards = spd

*write "phase" on 12 cards.

shuffle together

 

Putting the deck together at the start of a combat can take a while, but as I keep NPCs together, the real problem is taking them out

 

I keep drawing cards. If I draw a "phase" card, a second has passed (for when that is important for grenades, timed effects, etc)

If I draw a card for a character, that character may either take their action, or "hold" (literally) their card.

If you hold a card and your action is drawn again, you lose an action. If you abort, you just lose the next card "drawn" for you.

When a card is drawn, I place it face down in another pile

Once all cards heave been drawn, reshuffle.

 

This isn't SLOWER than the speed chart, means DEX isn't important to initiative (or all my players would buy a 20) except in held actions (where it makes sense), and means people cannot "game" the speed chart (I'll dodge, then recover, then punch, then dodge again, because that will be their action...)

Also adds some drama to holding for someone (people actually said "c'mon!")

 

To whoever thought of this: thanks

Tim:D

[Delthrien]

Curious...

 

Has anyone tried the "countdown" variant that Steve had discussed in the DH#12 article? Of the ones presented, I think that one appeals to me the most. I was thinking of trying it out in my next combat to see how it works.

[prestidigitator]

Ooh. I like the shuffle all actions and segments idea.

 

Here's another one, designed to introduce some randomness (because realisitcally it does happen at various points in a combat):

• Rather than everyone starting at 12, each character rolls 2d6, and starts on that segment (the curve still tends to start people off around the same place, but there is some randomness).
   
  
• If your Spd is 6 or less, and you have an action on Segment x, your next action is on x+p, where the period p=12/Spd.
   
  For Spd 5, there are a few options:
  
  1. Disallow this Spd.
     
  2. Skip it (10 pts gets you from Spd 4 to Spd 6).
     
  3. Treat it as Spd 6, but skip the first action in each Turn.

  [*] If your Spd is between 6 and 11, and you don't have an action on Segment x, you have actions each Segment until x+p, where the period p=12/(12-Spd). For example, if your Spd is 8, you will not act every 12/(12-8)=3 Segments. Treat Spd 7 similarly to Spd 5.

   

  [*] If your Spd is 12 or higher, you get an action every Segment for each 12 points of Spd, plus whatever you would get for the remaining Spd.

   

  [*] Obviously, Segment 13 becomes Segment 1 of the next Turn, 14 becomes 2, etc. (just subtract 12).

   

  [*] Optionally, certain events may cause a slowdown or speed up for a character, due to the randomness of combat. When these events occur, a character's next Phase will be 2d6 Segments after the event.

   

  Some of these events might be:

  1. Character recovers from being stunned.
     
  2. Character wakes up after being knocked out.
     
  3. Character is knocked down (or back).
     
  4. Oppenent pulls off a surprise Maneuver (causing hesitation, or providing an opening).

  [*] Optionally, characters even slower than Spd 1 can be handled by treating them as Spd 1, but making them skip 1-Spd Phases before they can act (also, perhaps these characters would be too slow to react defensively by aborting an action).

[zornwil]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

Ooh. I like the shuffle all actions and segments idea.

 

Here's another one, designed to introduce some randomness (because realisitcally it does happen at various points in a combat):

• Rather than everyone starting at 12, each character rolls 2d6, and starts on that segment (the curve still tends to start people off around the same place, but there is some randomness).
   
  
• If your Spd is 6 or less, and you have an action on Segment x, your next action is on x+p, where the period p=12/Spd.
   
  For Spd 5, there are a few options:
  
  1. Disallow this Spd.
     
  2. Skip it (10 pts gets you from Spd 4 to Spd 6).
     
  3. Treat it as Spd 6, but skip the first action in each Turn.

  [*] If your Spd is between 6 and 11, and you don't have an action on Segment x, you have actions each Segment until x+p, where the period p=12/(12-Spd). For example, if your Spd is 8, you will not act every 12/(12-8)=3 Segments. Treat Spd 7 similarly to Spd 5.

   

  [*] If your Spd is 12 or higher, you get an action every Segment for each 12 points of Spd, plus whatever you would get for the remaining Spd.

   

  [*] Obviously, Segment 13 becomes Segment 1 of the next Turn, 14 becomes 2, etc. (just subtract 12).

   

  [*] Optionally, certain events may cause a slowdown or speed up for a character, due to the randomness of combat. When these events occur, a character's next Phase will be 2d6 Segments after the event.

   

  Some of these events might be:

  1. Character recovers from being stunned.
     
  2. Character wakes up after being knocked out.
     
  3. Character is knocked down (or back).
     
  4. Oppenent pulls off a surprise Maneuver (causing hesitation, or providing an opening).

  [*] Optionally, characters even slower than Spd 1 can be handled by treating them as Spd 1, but making them skip 1-Spd Phases before they can act (also, perhaps these characters would be too slow to react defensively by aborting an action).

 

The only particularly troubling thing is the 2d6 delay after the events thing, as it's a bit of a penalty to the point that those characters who deliberately have high REC or some reduction in knockback are getting into more trouble than they bargained for and in particular REC is devalued somewhat. However, I can see this in the attempt you're taking at increasing realism, and I think therefore it wouldn't be too provocative in a heroic setting, but I think it's going too far in a super-heroic setting. Just my initial thoughts.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by zornwil

The only particularly troubling thing is the 2d6 delay after the events thing...I can see this in the attempt you're taking at increasing realism, and I think therefore it wouldn't be too provocative in a heroic setting, but I think it's going too far in a super-heroic setting. Just my initial thoughts.

 

True. I probably wouldn't use the random delay most of the time in a superheroic game. There's only so much realism I want for superheros anyway.