prestidigitator Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull One might almost consider doing away with characteristics altogether Maybe, but I still think there's a lot of room for Dex. Yes, it can be hard to pin down a specific skill or feat that exemplifies it. Someone who is just generally very coordinated, balanced, and performs just about any physical feat with ease is hard to represent in a 1-2 minute video clip. I'm absolutely certain there will still be things in my games that I will have the characters make straight Dex rolls for, or give the option of a choice between Dex and one or two possible Skills if a character possesses them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull When was the last time Chuck dodges a slash from a laser cutlass wielded by a robotic' date=' space, ninja-monkey?[/quote'] Or a slash from this guy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 20, 2009 Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull So, leave DEX at 10 and... 6 +2 with all Agility Skills (12 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only for skills relating to bodily agility; -1) 6 +1 with all Agility Skills 18 Lightning Reflexes (+18 DEX to act first with All Actions) What you have here is someone with 28 effective DEX for determining combat order (the equvalent of 28 DEX), +3 skill levels with 'Body agility' skills (the equivalent of +15 DEX), and +1 skill level wit other sorts of DExterity skills - the ones that require a steady hand (the equivalent of +5 DEX). So...we have not touched DEX but we have created a quite interesting character: quick - very quick - and that helps with overall agility, but not so much with things that require a steady hand (although the character is still above average even in that department). So long as you steer clear of adjustment powers, you're good. Of course 'doing' 15 DEX (10 points) costs 11 points if you do it with +5 Lightning Reflexes and +1 wit Agility skills. Mind you you get a MUCH more considered character if you build with components (which was tghe point of ditching figureds). Anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayoman Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull What is this guy's DEX? Shape of my heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull ............. It is (as others have said) almost impossible to 'grade' DEX. The coin manipulation is amazing, but I think the one handed card shuffle as amazing: I can manage a 'sort of' coin roll, I can not manage the one handed shuffle at all, but then I've not really tried either in any serious way. Moreover, unless we knew what ELSE the guy (or gal) could do we wouldn't know if we were assigning DEX or skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull I can not manage the one handed shuffle at all' date=' but then I've not really tried either in any serious way. [/quote'] You don't expect us to believe that do you? I'll bet you been practicing that since puberty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull You don't expect us to believe that do you? I'll bet you been practicing that since puberty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull Don't forget that the Skill Levels apply to only one Skill per Phase. Additional Dex applies to all Agility Skill rolls and plain Dex rolls in every Phase. So they aren't quite equivalent. The circumstances where that comes up aren't going to be extremely common, but they are definitely there. Using Fast Draw and then attempting a Breakfall roll when someone throws you before your next Phase, for example, isn't all that far-fetched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull Back though to why: why not just use '+3 with skills involving hand dexterity', rather than a characteristic at all (similar arguments could be made for all the characteristics, not just DEX). I'm definitely with you there, and guessing we've both had conversations with Doc Democracy on this very matter! Characteristics are a useful proxy, but in an effects-based system surely that's all they are - proxies for a range of related effects. Can't wait til Hero 7th.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull Don't forget that the Skill Levels apply to only one Skill per Phase. Additional Dex applies to all Agility Skill rolls and plain Dex rolls in every Phase. So they aren't quite equivalent. The circumstances where that comes up aren't going to be extremely common' date=' but they are definitely there. Using Fast Draw and then attempting a Breakfall roll when someone throws you before your next Phase, for example, isn't all that far-fetched.[/quote'] True. Mind you if you were to separate DEX into its components of manual and bodily agility (treating 'action speed' as a separate case) then it might not be unrealistic that if you are thrown as you land from an acrobatic manoeuvre you have less facility with your breakfall roll. You might then shepherd your skill levels, saving one or two against an unforseen intervention... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull You might then shepherd your skill levels' date=' saving one or two against an unforseen intervention...[/quote'] Which reminds me somewhat of some diceless systems where you have a limited number of resources to spend on actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull True. Mind you if you were to separate DEX into its components of manual and bodily agility (treating 'action speed' as a separate case) then it might not be unrealistic that if you are thrown as you land from an acrobatic manoeuvre you have less facility with your breakfall roll. You might then shepherd your skill levels, saving one or two against an unforseen intervention... True, though technically it takes a Zero Phase Action to allocate Skill Levels, so you'd have to Abort anyway if you're "saving up" your Skill Levels for unforseen events like that (and since you'll probably be able to re-/allocate your SLs to a defensive Skill anyway if you Abort like that...). As far as I know, in the base rules, you'd have to think of the eventuality of being thrown and allocate Skill Levels to Breakfall ahead of time, just in case. Of course, it seems quite reasonable for a GM to allow SLs specifically set aside for that kind of thing to be allocated when needed as an action that takes no time too, as a house rule. I'd probably allow it, though I might ask the player to give me a rough idea of what he wants to use the SLs for (e.g. "Acrobatics or Breakfall if I'm thrown"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull True' date=' though [i']technically[/i] it takes a Zero Phase Action to allocate Skill Levels, so you'd have to Abort anyway if you're "saving up" your Skill Levels for unforseen events like that (and since you'll probably be able to re-/allocate your SLs to a defensive Skill anyway if you Abort like that...). As far as I know, in the base rules, you'd have to think of the eventuality of being thrown and allocate Skill Levels to Breakfall ahead of time, just in case. Of course, it seems quite reasonable for a GM to allow SLs specifically set aside for that kind of thing to be allocated when needed as an action that takes no time too, as a house rule. I'd probably allow it, though I might ask the player to give me a rough idea of what he wants to use the SLs for (e.g. "Acrobatics or Breakfall if I'm thrown"). Since you can abort to multiple Defensive actions (6e2 pg 21), I would allow a character a chance to reallocate their skill levels into defense. I mean if I can dodge and turn on my forcefield, why not allow the reallocation of skill levels. Tasha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull IIRC, Steve answered very much the same question in the Questions forum. IIRC, allocating Skill Levels to a "defensive settings" can also be done with the (defensive) Phase that Aborting has granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull What is this guy's DEX? Shape of my heart Actually, he doesn't have to have a particularly high DEX. Just an outrageously high skill roll for this obviously DEX based skill. OTOH, if he can do equally impressive stuff with a large enough set of otherwise unrelated DEX based skills, =then= we have evidence that he has a high DEX. ...Either way, 1= he never gets to shuffle or deal at any card game I'm in. 2= every gambling casino in the world watches him like a hawk and he's =never= allowed to play cards at any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Re: Thats one nimble little bull Since you can abort to multiple Defensive actions (6e2 pg 21)' date=' I would allow a character a chance to reallocate their skill levels into defense. I mean if I can dodge and turn on my forcefield, why not allow the reallocation of skill levels.[/quote'] Granted. Actually I never assumed otherwise. There are situations where you'd want to use a Level for two different applications in the same Phase though, without an Abort. As one of the more common examples, you don't have to Abort to resist a Throw or Shove with Breakfall or Acrobatics. There are also cases when the GM will ask (or allow) you to make a Skill roll as part of your action, or allow a Complementary skill roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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