Thats one nimble little bull

[tesuji]

Ok so things could be done in 6e differently than they have been but so far they aren't and I am wondering why.

 

In the old days your typical supers all had dexs in the 20s and up. 23 or 26 depending on campaign standards was overly common even for supers not known for "agility" There were quite a few dex 23 bricks or at least dex 20 or 18.

 

All of which are "really damn good" or "superhuman" depending on genre/edition/version.

 

All because dex provided CV and speed, two things every hero needed.

 

But now we have HERo6 and all dex is about is who goes first and skills, more or less. CV and speed are totally separate.

 

This opens the possibility for heroes with more normal stats.

 

There is no reason a gadgeteer would need a high dexterity. Certainly a brick wouldn't.

 

There is nothing wrong with a brick say with a 10 dex or maybe he is above average and so has a 13 or so.

 

But when i look at the sample characters provided I don't see any move away from the old way.

 

Taurus a bull-minotaur based brick, who has in his write0upalmost no mention of being especially agile or a previous career as a gymnast, has a 23 dexterity.

 

Why?

 

How does that match his concept?

 

This isn't about nit picking a given character write-up but looking at the sample supers i see a lot of "just like we did in hero 5" ishness on their characteristics.

 

the first five characters i wrote up had widely varying characteristics and many had basically normal dex and such.

 

 

So as you play with hero6 characters are you seeing a lot more "this matches concept" low to normal human characteristics where you used to see the usual superhuman stats?

 

brick with 10 dex - got one yet?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

Looking at the very few in the book, they're pretty much straight translations from the 5E versions.

 

I'll only be truly worried about that kind of thing if there isn't much interesting going on when the Enemies books get released, or other Genre books going down the line.

 

At the moment, I have a feeling, there isn't enough sample to see anything remarkable going on.

 

And... you know... there's 25+ years of habit and history to break.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I agree with ghost-angel that it's too early to say that this will be a trend, and that old habits are hard to break; but I also agree with tesuji. Making character designs more conceptually "logical" is one of the potential strengths of 6E, and it's worth reminding folks of that and pointing out where it's not happening.

 

I could understand Steve Long simply translating the 5E stats of the sample characters to 6E for the sake of expediency; but I hope he'll apply more diversity to the characters in the upcoming villain compendia.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I think a lot of it depends on how you look at things. I've always felt that just about any superhuman should stand roughly 'head and shoulders' above a normal. If a thug has an 11 DEX, then the slowest superhuman in play should have an 18.

[archermoo]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

It all depends on the ground rules for the world. Are superheroes normal people who just have a few special things that set them apart? Are supers superhumans that additionally have extraordinary powers? My take on the CU has always been closer to the second than the first, so in general I'm not surprised when supers whose powers are unrelated to strength or speed or anything like that are still stronger and faster than most normal people. They're superheroes, dangit.

[Peregrine]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

It all depends on the ground rules for the world. Are superheroes normal people who just have a few special things that set them apart? Are supers superhumans that additionally have extraordinary powers? My take on the CU has always been closer to the second than the first' date=' so in general I'm not surprised when supers whose powers are unrelated to strength or speed or anything like that are still stronger and faster than most normal people. They're superheroes, dangit. [/quote']

 

Count me in this camp as well.

 

(Funny, those of us in this camp seem to be more accepting of the other camp's views than they are of ours...)

[archermoo]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

Count me in this camp as well.

 

(Funny, those of us in this camp seem to be more accepting of the other camp's views than they are of ours...)

 

Oh I can and have enjoyed both types of games. It just seems to me that the CU is more the second than the first. Certainly not that the system emphasizes one over the other, or that there is anything wrong with either.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I'm curious whether the sample characters balance at starting character points - ie are they examples of a character which might be built as a beginning character in a game, or are they just sets of abilities identical to their 5e counterparts, with whatever point cost that entails?

 

I agree it would be nice to see more diversity, especially in DEX.

 

I don't agree that there is any philosophical basis behind DEX historically. As I see it, this developed as:

 

- DEX is the prime determinant of combat value, and buying CV any other way was not cost effective, so getting the CV needed to be competitive in-game was accomplished by buying up DEX.

 

- the very first sample characters (Champions 1e) set the bar that 18 was a slow Super, 20-23 was pretty typical, and 26-30 was pretty fast. The Enemies books quickly evolved this to 18-20 was slow, 23-26 was typical, and 29-35 was fast, and there it stayed.

 

NOTE: Joe Bystander had a 10 at that time, and there was no benchmark for what passed the level of "non-Super" for characteristics, although STR was pretty clear based on the lifting chart.

 

- Hero branched out into other genres (Espionage, Justice Inc., Fantasy Hero) and needed to set some caps to establish "normal human" levels. NCM was set at 20, likely due to STR issues, as well as point costs, and maybe even the prevalence of 3-18 stat ranges. These were separate games from Champions, so these didn't really impact Champions games.

 

- Along came 4e, which merged everything, and moved NCM into the Supers universe. But we had far too much history with the DEX ranges already established in the numerous Champions sourcebooks to change it now, so they remained.

 

I don't believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that any Hero product has ever commented on the reason why even the slowest Super possesses agility at the high end of human norm, and even typical Supers pass beyond that level in most cases. It has evolved over time, and become part of the psyche for Champions.

 

I agree with tesuji that a change right at the outset of 6e merited consideration. The first sample characters set the bar. If the Enemies books now set a slow Super at, say, DEX 8-11, average at 14-17 and fast at 20+, we'll all point at Taurus' DEX and say "How come a character whose description depicts him as extremely agile is no faster than a cow-man?"

[Eosin]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I, personally, do a benchmarking for each style campaign and expect that I'll do the same with the new system. The benchmarks will be different but give me the same guide.

 

CV will now have its own slot rather than just be filtered through DEX.

 

I do expect that my write-ups will look quite a bit different in the stat department.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I suspect most of my superheroic characters will have pretty high Dex (probably at least 15), though I won't rule out the possibility of creating a big slow brute at some point. **shrug** On the other hand, I foresee creating plenty of average-Dex heroic characters.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

On the converted sample superheroic characters:

 

1. None of them had Elemental Controls, and a couple had AoE powers (which are quite a bit cheaper now), and a couple have had abilities left out to balance cost. Certainly the several that I have converted so far have worked out quite a bit more expensive even than the new point suggestion.

 

2. I'd be surprised if Enemies changed much - think about it. The sample characters in the rule book are all straight conversions, and this is the first look that anyone new to Hero will have - the template they will be implanted with. If you set '8' as the 'standard' CV for heroes, that is going to be a powerful influence in character design thinking.

 

3. Character design will always be heavily influenced by combat efficiency, subject to point 'guidelines' which, even for those who do not believe in them, are still there. DEX has always been a very efficient spend.

 

About High DEX

 

I think you need to define your goals before deciding if 'superheroic High DEX' is an appropriate thing. Personally that bothers me less than 'superheoric High CV'. It would be nice to see the lockstep broken now that we can actually do so in a straightforward way.

[mattingly]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I ran my heroes through a 6E demo yesterday, and one of them did play Taurus. From his background, Taurus is a Tack & Field star, and he even has KS: Track & Field on his sheet. It even came up during play. They were being attacked by small spherical robots, so Taurus grabbed one, and succeeding at a KS: Track & Field, he remembered his shotput experience, and was able to throw one at another without an Unfamiliar Weapon penalty.

 

So in Taurus's case, I can see a justification for a higher than normal DEX.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I ran my heroes through a 6E demo yesterday, and one of them did play Taurus. From his background, Taurus is a Tack & Field star, and he even has KS: Track & Field on his sheet. It even came up during play. They were being attacked by small spherical robots, so Taurus grabbed one, and succeeding at a KS: Track & Field, he remembered his shotput experience, and was able to throw one at another without an Unfamiliar Weapon penalty.

 

So in Taurus's case, I can see a justification for a higher than normal DEX.

 

But should that be an 11, a 13 or even an 18 (remembering the average is 8), rather than a 23 (which is above the normal human maximum)? I would suggest, if 20 is as high as humans will normally ever go (with only a very few 'wow!' exceptions), then a 13 would be plenty. If Taurus has a 23 for being a track & field star, what does an olympic gold medal gymnast have? A 28 is the next step that makes a difference to their skills. Now, what does that mean a Super Agile super needs? A 43 is required to get a 3 point skill difference from an Olympic medalist. If 43 is the bar for "superhumanly agile", what's "the best of all superhumans"? 58, maybe?

 

If we set the bar lower for "above average" and "really impressive", then the bar for "superhuman" levels can drop to a point that it's practical to play such a character. If the 400 point Super must invest 96 points in DEX rolls and combat order to be "the most agile Super in the game", how playable is the concept? Especially when that 21- DEX roll won't fail any more often than the 17- roll enjoyed by the 38 DEX "almost Superhuman" character in most situations, and the 23 DEX "athletic human" will still succeed over 90% of the time.

 

To a large extent, I blame this kind of stat inflation for many players and GM's unwillingness to assess some tasks as "routine - succeeds automatically". The game system tells me an 8- Familiarity is sufficient to accomplish routine skills, but we ignore that and let him accomplish them only 25% of the time. If a 14- roll was actually impressive, instead of routine, maybe we'd be more inclined to accept it can do impressive things, rather than simply accomplish the routine 9 times out of 10 instead of the 1 chance in 4 afforded the character with a mere Familiarity.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

DEX determines how good you are at lockpicking, stealth and acrobatics, assuming you have enough training in these areas to be basically competent, so it governs how steady and precise your hands are, how aware you are of your body's movements in relation to the environment, and how good your overall physical coordination is.

 

That is true even if you do not have those skills.

 

It also governs how quickly you act (not REACT) in combat i.e. if you get to attack first.

 

That is still a lot of different stuff, much of which is only peripherally related.

 

I think you need to decide if characters are just better at everything (justifying high DEX, certainly, but not really explaining why other characteristics (except CON and STR) are rarely as high - if you are generally super, why isn't EVERYTHING at 23+?), or if they are basically normal but with powers that can make then superhuman but only in certain areas.

 

I'm increasingly favouring teh latter approach, but so long as you are consistent (and the players know the ground rules) it shouldn;t matter too much.

 

I am somewhat disappointed that, with an overhaul to the system, we did not get an overhaul of the expectations about the basic character build templates, even if only to show what the new rules can do.

[McCoy]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

It all depends on the ground rules for the world. Are superheroes normal people who just have a few special things that set them apart? Are supers superhumans that additionally have extraordinary powers? My take on the CU has always been closer to the second than the first' date=' so in general I'm not surprised when supers whose powers are unrelated to strength or speed or anything like that are still stronger and faster than most normal people. They're superheroes, dangit. [/quote']

I also assume a certain amount of Darwinian attrition, those with exceptional abilities who try to get "into the business" who are not faster and tougher than average are rather quickly killed.

 

"What was he doing trying to rob a bank in costume anyway? If you can't dodge, or take, a 9 mm slug, don't call yourself a supervillian! If the cop on the beat can shoot you dead. don't be playing in a league where a 2d6 RKA is considered a way to get someone's attention!"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I also assume a certain amount of Darwinian attrition' date=' those with exceptional abilities who try to get "into the business" who are not faster and tougher than average are rather quickly killed.[/quote']

 

But WHICH abilities? A 10 STR, or 8 STR Super seems like he can manage just fine.

 

"What was he doing trying to rob a bank in costume anyway? If you can't dodge' date=' or take, a 9 mm slug, don't call yourself a supervillian! If the cop on the beat can shoot you dead. don't be playing in a league where a 2d6 RKA is considered a way to get someone's attention!"[/quote']

 

That's DCV and defenses, but not DEX, so I again come back to "which abilities". 6e severed CV's from DEX, so it is no longer necessary to have a high DEX to be competent and efficient. It would have been nice for the sample characters to have been reconsidered in light of this very significant change between 5e and 6e.

 

In 5e, the "typical Super" would have a 23 DEX, 8 OCV and 8 DCV. But, if that character already had high defenses, and does not have agility as part of his concept, why shouldn't the 6e version have a 13 DEX (still 5 points, and one better on the DEX roll, than Joe Normal), an 8 OCV (the same as before - that's why he bought DEX in 5e!) and a DCV of 5, or even 3 (he's amazingly tough, and maybe also overconfident - Dodging isn't his area of expertise).

 

Compared to a 23 DEX, 8 OCV, 8 DCV (ie "exactly what I had in 5e), the updated version recovers, say with DCV 4, recovers 40 points (10% of a starting Super's points!) to spend on abilities that are more consistent with his character concept. And what has he lost? The occasional DEX roll and some DCV when he expected to get hit anyway.

 

Looking at the stats from a Darwinian perspective:

 

DEFINITION: Supers get a lot of exercise, so when I say "normal" below, I refer to a characteristic certainly no lower than 8, the baseline average, and probably in the range of 10 - 13, with 15 - 18 not an unreasonable choice. Definitely, however, below 20 (normal human maximum).

 

The old primaries:

 

STR - unless STR is your prime attack mode, it could be normal without a huge impediment to the character. I have lots of 1-5e characters with 8 - 13 STR already, so this is no big change.

 

DEX - unless agility is in character concept, DEX strikes me as no longer being the "big deal" it once was. But I don't place a huge premium on acting first (in Phase 12 - after that, it's all rotational anyway).

 

CON - this is still the big one - spend a lot of time Stunned, and you will not be successful!

 

BOD - how often do Supers take BOD? Most are in the Normal range already, IMO, and I see no reason that should change.

 

INT - lots of Supers have normal INT already, so no changes here.

 

EGO - lots of Supers have normal INT already, so no changes here. If anything, I would have liked to see EGO as the sole determinant of resistance to PRE attacks, so we would have higher Ego's than we have in the past.

 

PRE - this was another that always seemed to start at 20, primarily because being PRE attacked routinely was annoying. If we removed the defensive aspect, normal PRE could be pretty common, but I'd generally expect the high end of "normal".

 

The old Secondaries

 

PD, ED - this is more reflective of the need for defenses than characteristics, so I ignore it.

 

SPD - this is another big one. The Heroes get more screen time, so they get more SPD. This could also have been deflated (and could have been in prior editions), but "multiple actions" tends to separate the Mundanes from the Heroes, so it seems reasonable it stays higher. I wouldn't mind seeing "slow Supers" with a 2-3 SPD, average with a 4 and fast Supers with a 5 - 6.

 

REC, END, STUN - you need to have staying power somehow. I had a lot of pre-6e characters who didn't buy these up, but the Figured's from CON (always) and STR (sometimes) meant they were still well above "normal". I expect that will continue.

 

New Secondaries

 

CV's - most Supers will have a decent OCV - we all like our attacks to connect. DCV? Well, if I rely on defenses rather than dodging, maybe not. The debate over mOCV rages on - if you don't use it, why buy it? mDCV may be the one that ends up higher, now that you can buy it without the other trappings of Ego.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

It is all a matter of campaign design IMO.

 

Look at the 'Wild Cards' books, if you do not know them: normal people, with powers. Some were excellent all-rounders, but most were not. Most were normals, even sub-normals, but with an ability or a group of related abilities that made them extraordinary. Most Wild Cards still had to worry about bullets and knives. For a slightly more modern version of the same thing, Heroes or the 4400 did much the same: (Super) Humans, not Superior Beings.

 

Most of the reason for high DEX based in historical character assumptions (including 30 DEX = 60 points = nominal campaign cap) and mechanical reasons: you can not compete with a CV of 8 unless you have a CV someone near.

 

We then retroactively justify the decision in game terms - easy to do but unsatisfying to my mind.

 

Better by far to decide what effect superpowers would have on the world, and individuals, and build from those assumptions.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I wouldn't say there is that big a difference in Dex between a really good gymnastic athlete and a really good track and field athlete. Some, but not a huge amount. The rest is in the other things they've bought. Extra Running and Leaping for the track and field guy, Acrobatics and Breakfall for the gymnast (with extra levels, most likely), probably Str for the gymnast, and different Professional Skills for each of them. That's plenty of difference without needing the track and field guy to stay down at Dex 13. I'd probably go 18-20 for the gymnast and 15-16 for the track and field guy.

 

(Speaking as a not-so-really-good gymnast. )

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I wouldn't say there is that big a difference in Dex between a really good gymnastic athlete and a really good track and field athlete. Some' date=' but not a [i']huge[/i] amount. The rest is in the other things they've bought. Extra Running and Leaping for the track and field guy, Acrobatics and Breakfall for the gymnast (with extra levels, most likely), probably Str for the gymnast, and different Professional Skills for each of them. That's plenty of difference without needing the track and field guy to stay down at Dex 13. I'd probably go 18-20 for the gymnast and 15-16 for the track and field guy.

 

Fair enough. So was Taurus an olympic-medal quality track & field star, or just a fellow with some natural aptitude? What would the Hero difference be between, say:

 

- a high school track team member (good enough to make the team and maybe win an event on occasion)

- the high school track star (every school knows his name; he always wins his events)

- a contender for a couple of Olympic track and field events

- an Olympic team member in a couple of track & field events

- an Olympic medal contender on his best day in one or two events

- a consistent winner of Olympic-level medals in one or two events

- a consistent winner of Olympic-level medals in most track & field events

- a guy so consistent as a winner that his name is known to the general public in connection with track & field events ("the world's fastest man" in respect of track, say)?

 

If we start with the assumption the team member must be better than average (let's give him an 11 DEX), and that each step up the chart has a roll one better, we get 13- for an Olympic contender (18 DEX, no levels or 13 DEX and a level), 15- to be consistent in one or two events (probably two more specific levels), 17- to be "The Name" (call that 18 DEX and 4 levels or 23 DEX and 3 levels).

 

This makes the average Super (23 DEX) as good in all events able to be a contender with a little luck in every DEX-based event (presuming, I suppose, a little training) and that really agile character (33 DEX) is equal to a consistent winner of events in most track & field events after a crash course in the event.

 

If we set the bar higher, we cheapen high skill rolls. If we set it lower, we make Supers even better at virtually everything because they have an expectation of 23 DEX. I'd rather lower the bar and lower Supers' DEX unless they are highly agile. They no longer NEED a 23 DEX to be combat-capable, so why not let high DEX mean "wow - he's incredibly/superhumanly agile" rather than "ho hum - another typical SuperGuy".

[prestidigitator]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

If we set the bar higher' date=' we cheapen high skill rolls. If we set it lower, we make Supers even better at virtually everything because they have an expectation of 23 DEX. I'd rather lower the bar and lower Supers' DEX unless they are highly agile. They no longer NEED a 23 DEX to be combat-capable, so why not let high DEX mean "wow - he's incredibly/superhumanly agile" rather than "ho hum - another typical SuperGuy".[/quote']

 

Oh, I'll agree with that one. I don't give every superhero over 20. That's typically just in the Characteristics where they shine. Why, just the other day I generated a superhero with a 15 Str and a 10 Int. Heh.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

Oh' date=' I'll agree with that one. I don't give every superhero over 20. That's typically just in the Characteristics where they shine. Why, just the other day I generated a superhero with a 15 Str and a 10 Int. Heh.[/quote']I think it's entirely reasonable that supers generally not have Characteristics out of the normal human range except in those specific areas they're supposed to be superhuman in. Keeping in mind that a STR of 8 is a typical man on the street*, a STR 15 one is a very strong man indeed and a STR of 20 makes him someone who can beat a normal to death with fists alone...

 

 

*At least in 5E; I don't know if that's changed in 6E.

[Susano]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

It is all a matter of campaign design IMO.

 

Look at the 'Wild Cards' books, if you do not know them: normal people, with powers. Some were excellent all-rounders, but most were not. Most were normals, even sub-normals, but with an ability or a group of related abilities that made them extraordinary. Most Wild Cards still had to worry about bullets and knives. For a slightly more modern version of the same thing, Heroes or the 4400 did much the same: (Super) Humans, not Superior Beings.

 

I was also thinking of Wild Cards. If you look at the GURPS book, a lot of the characters had fairly low DEXs. The Turtle, for example, has around a 10 or so. He's not very fast. The new system (6E) will let you build that, than up his OCV to account for his skill with TK (or just use lots of levels). On the other hand, you could argue for a 3-4 SPD, since he's been a hero for years and could react fairly well when acting as the Turtle. Of course, many of the characters also had high DEXs, but even then, not all of them were bullet proof.

 

I've found the split stats to work out fairly well already. My Bryan Mills character sheet has a 16 DEX (he's fairly quick) a 6 OCV (he hits a lot) but only a 5 DCV. It nice to be able to simply define innate combat talent with OCV and DCV and not worry about cranking up the DEX to superhuman levels. Granted, if you need the high DEX rolls you're going to needto do both, but that's the trade off.

[archermoo]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

It is all a matter of campaign design IMO.

 

Which is what I said back in post #5 of this thread...

 

[archermoo]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

I think it's entirely reasonable that supers generally not have Characteristics out of the normal human range except in those specific areas they're supposed to be superhuman in. Keeping in mind that a STR of 8 is a typical man on the street*, a STR 15 one is a very strong man indeed and a STR of 20 makes him someone who can beat a normal to death with fists alone...

 

 

*At least in 5E; I don't know if that's changed in 6E.

 

Very similar. STR, DEX, CON and BODY in 6th become Superhuman at 31+ in both versions. INT, EGO and PRE become Superhuman at 51+ in both versions. SPD becomes Superhuman at 8+ in both versions. PD and ED become Superhuman at 16+ in both versions. Recovery becomes Superhuman at 14+ in both versions. END and STUN become Superhuman at 61+ in both versions.

 

The only differences are that the CVs weren't covered in 5e, and that the movements are measured differently, though they all become Superhuman within rounding error of the 5e benchmark in 6e.

 

So it looks like between 5e and 6e the CU's benchmark levels didn't really change. Though it is nice that 6e also gives a large list of examples from both fiction and reality.

 

As to the "typical man on the street", 6e lists the "average person" as 8s for the most part, and the "noteworthy normal" as 10's. "Skilled normal" is a little better, and "competent normal" is mostly 13s. Which is to say pretty much was they were in 5e.

[Ice9]

Re: Thats one nimble little bull

 

3. Character design will always be heavily influenced by combat efficiency, subject to point 'guidelines' which, even for those who do not believe in them, are still there. DEX has always been a very efficient spend.

But not anymore. In 6E, DEX does nothing essential for survival, and at twice the cost of the other primaries, might even be overpriced*. For pure optimization purposes, there's no point having a high DEX unless you plan on getting lots of Agility Skills. Heck, you could even be a low-DEX speedster now, with no loss of combat effectiveness.

 

As far as "necessary for survival", that could apply to CON, EGO, PRE, SPD, DCV, and PD/ED - but not DEX.

 

* Sure, there's initiative, but since that's a straight binary comparison, the cost of DEX has no effect. Having a 10 DEX to your foe's 12 is the same as having a 100 DEX to your foe's 1000.