Blocking or Deflection

[RPMiller]

I'm trying to wrap my head around what Deflection actually gives you versus Blocking and apparently my head ain't big enough.

 

I'm converting Cheshire Cat to 6th, along with a few others, and trying to figure out the best way to give him his Missile Deflection. It would appear that this ability is simply part of the Block maneuver now, and a power is not required. The only thing I can see Deflection provides is the ability to deflect/block at range; however, the description of Block suggests that it too can be used at range, so I am confused.

 

Anyone care to chime in that really understands what the difference between Block and Deflection are?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

As I understand it, you can Block an attack which is HTH or ranged under 6e rules. Deflection permits you to Block an attack at range, so you could Block an attack aimed at someone else, or Block a ranged attack before it reaches you.

[RPMiller]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

As I understand it' date=' you can Block an attack which is HTH or ranged under 6e rules. Deflection permits you to Block an attack at range, so you could Block an attack aimed at someone else, or Block a ranged attack before it reaches you.[/quote']

 

See that's the confusing thing... Note the following from the rules regarding Block:

...a superhero using his energy bolt to shoot down a villain’s energy bolt....

...characters can use CSLs that apply to Ranged attacks to improve their Block OCV versus Ranged attacks.

A Ranged attack doesn’t necessarily have to hit a character for that character to be able to Block it.

 

See why I'm confused? It sure reads like it does the same thing that Deflection does.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

The question is where the attack being Blocked was aimed. Was it aimed at you, or someone adjacent to you? Then a normal Block will suffice, provided the GM believes you have the necessary tools/powers/whatever. On the other hand, if it is aimed at your DNPC buddy George across the room from you, you need to use Deflection.

[phookz]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

6E1, Pg 187:

This Defense Power expands a character’s ability to Block Ranged attacks

Deflection allows the player to block a Ranged attack at range. This would allow you to block a ranged attack against someone else.

6E2, Pg 57:

Block - This Combat Maneuver allows a character to block an opponent’s HTH attack and set himself up to deliver the next blow.

 

6E2, Pg 59:

With the GM's permission, characters may Block Ranged attacks.

As I read it, while you may be able to Block a Ranged attack, you can't do it at range; it needs to be near you to do it. This viewpoint is supported by this statement:

6E2, Pg 52:

...the GM could rule that an attack that misses by a considerable margin (say, 5 or more) doesn’t even come close to the character and therefore is not Blockable.

 

At first glance, it seems like 20 points is a lot for the subtle distinction. But think about the potential impact on the battlefield - blocking other attacks at range makes it much easier to defend innocent bystanders, DNPCs, friends, etc.

[Beast]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

the big thing about the new block is

does the sfx of the character allow him to block the attack and take no damage(sorry avoiding the damage is a dodge)

when Darth Vader blocks the blaster bolts from Han Solo in TESB the sfx would be that he used the force to protect his hand so there was no need for deflection to be bought

 

Captain America would need to use his mighty shield to block shots at him or at range

if he got hit his chain mail armor would stop the hit but he would take stun damage as normal

he might be able to use a man hole cover as a shield but it would be breakable

this would depend on how Capt bought his deflection/reflection as a power he has train to do with what is at hand or his shield as a personal focus that he has trained with and it is unbreakable

 

Superman just braces for it and maybe does a 1/2 move and lets bullets bounce off his chest

 

it boils down to does the character have the right special effect that the GM will allow you to block any shot based on the characters special effect

 

My personal feeling is if you want to block more than a punch thrown at you

buy Defection and end the argument before it starts

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

At first glance' date=' it seems like 20 points is a lot for the subtle distinction. But think about the potential impact on the battlefield - blocking other attacks at range makes it much easier to defend innocent bystanders, DNPCs, friends, etc.[/quote']

 

Deflection + No Range Modifier + levels adding to Block OCV = a character who can reliably defend everyone on the battlefield.

 

I'm converting Cheshire Cat to 6th' date=' along with a few others, and trying to figure out the best way to give him his Missile Deflection. It would appear that this ability is simply part of the Block maneuver now, and a power is not required. The only thing I can see Deflection provides is the ability to deflect/block at range; however, the description of Block suggests that it too can be used at range, so I am confused.[/quote']

 

(sorry avoiding the damage is a dodge)

 

Cheshire Cat's Missile Deflection is a classic example of "block with the SFX of avoidance", as he blink teleports so the attack bypasses him. With the much clearer link between Block and Missile Deflection, I suspect the 6e Enemies books will quickly tell us whether official Hero rules allow Block with an avoidance SFX or not.

[RPMiller]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

The question is where the attack being Blocked was aimed. Was it aimed at you' date=' or someone adjacent to you? Then a normal Block will suffice, provided the GM believes you have the necessary tools/powers/whatever. On the other hand, if it is aimed at your DNPC buddy George across the room from you, you need to use Deflection.[/quote']

 

Deflection allows the player to block a Ranged attack at range. This would allow you to block a ranged attack against someone else.

 

As I read it, while you may be able to Block a Ranged attack, you can't do it at range; it needs to be near you to do it. This viewpoint is supported by this statement:

 

At first glance, it seems like 20 points is a lot for the subtle distinction. But think about the potential impact on the battlefield - blocking other attacks at range makes it much easier to defend innocent bystanders, DNPCs, friends, etc.

 

These two statements make me firmly believe that 6th edition Cheshire Cat does not need to buy Deflection and will simply use his Billy Club to perform a block maneuver.

 

My personal feeling is if you want to block more than a punch thrown at you buy Defection and end the argument before it starts

 

I have to disagree based on the comments above. If you have a SFX that allows you to perform a block, per the statements in the description of the Block maneuver, then you can block any attack. It comes down to GM decision whether that will be the case. In Cheshire's case, it really doesn't give many details concerning his club, but considering that it is assumed to not break when he hits stuff with his 30 STR behind it, I have to believe it is tough enough to handle most attack types. I think I would probably say he can't block any attack that exceeds 12d6 worth of DCs since that is how much he can deal out with it.

 

Cheshire Cat's Missile Deflection is a classic example of "block with the SFX of avoidance"' date=' as he blink teleports so the attack bypasses him. With the much clearer link between Block and Missile Deflection, I suspect the 6e Enemies books will quickly tell us whether official Hero rules allow Block with an avoidance SFX or not.[/quote']

Sorry, no. He has DCV levels that represent his blink TP. His Missile Deflection is part of his Billy Club MP.

[Beast]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

all that means is his club can withstand as much damage as Cheshire cat can deal out with a 30 Str

so it might has as little def as 9(1/2 again Cheshire's str)

if it is defined as an handwavium club that cannot be destroyed then that would maybe meet the GM OK

or it could be a normal club that might be able to withstand a hit or 2 and he just goes to the truck stop and gets another tire club(used in checking a big rigs tires)

 

I would go more with Cheshire's ability to teleport(had forgotten he could do that) and to put a small portal between himself and the attack

 

the big thing is that I have a problem with is Joe Q Normal could block a shot by Dr D by hiding behind a manhole cover for at least 1 shot

it is giving a power for free just because of SFX of the character

 

These two statements make me firmly believe that 6th edition Cheshire Cat does not need to buy Deflection and will simply use his Billy Club to perform a block maneuver.

 

 

 

I have to disagree based on the comments above. If you have a SFX that allows you to perform a block, per the statements in the description of the Block maneuver, then you can block any attack. It comes down to GM decision whether that will be the case. In Cheshire's case, it really doesn't give many details concerning his club, but considering that it is assumed to not break when he hits stuff with his 30 STR behind it, I have to believe it is tough enough to handle most attack types. I think I would probably say he can't block any attack that exceeds 12d6 worth of DCs since that is how much he can deal out with it.

 

 

Sorry, no. He has DCV levels that represent his blink TP. His Missile Deflection is part of his Billy Club MP.

[RPMiller]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

Cheshire can actually deal out 12d6 attacks with his club as I mentioned, but I am pretty confident that we are on the same page regarding that aspect.

 

That comment about the small portal is intriguing and certainly feasible, but in this instance I'm trying to do a direct conversion from 5th to 6th, as best as I can, and the Missile Deflection he has is bought through the club MP. That isn't to say that when they redo him for 6th they won't give him some sort of TP Block which would be cool and probably make more sense, but from the years of using him in games and his various incarnations and write-ups, I don't see him as using his TP in that way preferring to show off his superior HtH skills.

 

Thank you everyone for your comments and insights. I think I'm going to stick with the Block Maneuver as the replacement for the Missile Deflection since he wouldn't be doing it at range, it doesn't make sense that he would buy Deflection except for one possibility:

 

He blink TPs around the battle field knocking aside attacks aimed at his partners. That would be the only situation where I could see buying Deflection as a power.

[torchwolf]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

all that means is his club can withstand as much damage as Cheshire cat can deal out with a 30 Str

so it might has as little def as 9(1/2 again Cheshire's str)

if it is defined as an handwavium club that cannot be destroyed then that would maybe meet the GM OK

or it could be a normal club that might be able to withstand a hit or 2 and he just goes to the truck stop and gets another tire club(used in checking a big rigs tires)

 

Either the Breakable/Unbreakable Focus issue - or - GM call. It depends on how the Focus is defined, but as RPMiller said, there is nothing said about the billy club. If he could just use Deflection with any club, it should maybe be an OIF (Club of Opportunity).

 

I would go more with Cheshire's ability to teleport(had forgotten he could do that) and to put a small portal between himself and the attack

 

You have a point there, though that would involve a slight redefinition.

 

the big thing is that I have a problem with is Joe Q Normal could block a shot by Dr D by hiding behind a manhole cover for at least 1 shot

it is giving a power for free just because of SFX of the character

 

I would use House Rule that in such cases I would roll Knockback if the Block is successful, in the interest of verisimilitude (such as it is in the genre). In case of something less powerful than Destroyer's attack, such a Block could be described as having resulted in a glancing blow that only just deflected the attack (and possibly cracked the manhole cover if Joe Q Normal didn't pay points for a Special Manhole Cover). Since Cheshire is a super, and paid for his Billy Club, he should probably get the benefit of the doubt - YMMV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

The way I interpret the distinction as Deflection allows you to Block an Attack that is Targetting at another Character (not yourself), or an AoE Attack that is Blockable, that is more than 1m from you (i.e. not adjacent).

[RPMiller]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

The way I interpret the distinction as Deflection allows you to Block an Attack that is Targetting at another Character (not yourself)' date=' or an AoE Attack that is Blockable, that is more than 1m from you (i.e. not adjacent).[/quote']

 

So then would you come to the same conclusion I have that the 6th ed version of Cheshire Cat would not have Deflection for his Billy Club?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

Nope, I wouldn't put it on the character as written.

 

If I were to add it, the SFX would be CC teleports over to the intended target, deflects the attack, and teleports back isntantly. And then I'd add a Limitation "Only within the range of his Teleport" to it. It'd certainly be a cool trick.

 

But as written in CKC, no, Deflection is not needed to fit his concept.

[RPMiller]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

That is exactly the same conclusion I came to, including how to add the Deflection power as I indicated above. Great minds do indeed think alike.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

Nope, I wouldn't put it on the character as written.

 

If I were to add it, the SFX would be CC teleports over to the intended target, deflects the attack, and teleports back isntantly. And then I'd add a Limitation "Only within the range of his Teleport" to it. It'd certainly be a cool trick.

 

But as written in CKC, no, Deflection is not needed to fit his concept.

 

Or he throws the Billy Club to intercept the attack, and it bounces back to him.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

Or he throws the Billy Club to intercept the attack' date=' and it bounces back to him.[/quote']

 

Another good SFX for Deflection.

[torchwolf]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

Uh. I just had a vision of CheshireDare CatDevil.

[jye42]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

The way i GM it is you can block any ranged attack that could be resonibly blocked by 'normals' in other words under 5th ed missile deflection 'thrown objects' anything faster than that i require the player to buy deflection.

 

For example a sniper may have 5 ranged combat levels but without a power theirs no way he can dodge or deflect a bullet it just dosent make sense.

 

But a jedi or a telekenetic that can stop bullets with their mind... sure if they by deflection to represent this.

[RPMiller]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

That isn't fair to the players, by the rules all the players should have to have is a SFX that could be used to block an attack.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

That isn't fair to the players' date=' by the rules all the players should have to have is a SFX that could be used to block an attack.[/quote']

No, by the rules:

6E2, Pg 59:

With the GM's permission, characters may Block Ranged attacks.

It's up to the GM if he wants to allow the players to Block Ranged attacks at all. Some GM's may require a focus (baseball bat, Wonder Woman style bracers), some may require a SFX to make sense, some might not allow it at all depending on the genre and playstyle. Of course I think you could buy Deflection with the No Range Limitation if you have a fussy GM to make sure you're covered regardless of the SFX of the attack or block.

[RPMiller]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

No, by the rules:

 

It's up to the GM if he wants to allow the players to Block Ranged attacks at all. Some GM's may require a focus (baseball bat, Wonder Woman style bracers), some may require a SFX to make sense, some might not allow it at all depending on the genre and playstyle. Of course I think you could buy Deflection with the No Range Limitation if you have a fussy GM to make sure you're covered regardless of the SFX of the attack or block.

 

Which is exactly what I was saying in far more words based on what I've said previously. At least having them buy it with the No Range Limitation would be more fair than making them buy the default version. But then I am an accommodating GM that believes that the fun and enjoyment of role playing should override game mechanics whenever GM adjudication is needed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

The way i GM it is you can block any ranged attack that could be resonibly blocked by 'normals' in other words under 5th ed missile deflection 'thrown objects' anything faster than that i require the player to buy deflection.

 

For example a sniper may have 5 ranged combat levels but without a power theirs no way he can dodge or deflect a bullet it just dosent make sense.

 

But a jedi or a telekenetic that can stop bullets with their mind... sure if they by deflection to represent this.

 

To me, one of the biggest weaknesses of 5e Missile Deflection was its definition by SFX. To continue that in the form of Block rules into 6e is, in my opinion, a poor decision.

 

It does not cost any extra to have a bullet SFX, or a laser beam SFX, than to have a thrown object SFX. As such, there should not be a significant mechanical difference between the three. If some can be blocked by anyone, and others can only be blocked by a smaller group (whether defined by SFX, point expensitures, or whatever), then the cost of the attack should rise based on the dificulty of Blocking.

 

That could mean a default rule that all ranged attacks can be blocked by anyone, and those with resricted Blocking must pay for an advantage. It could mean a default that no ranged attack can be blocked by default, and an attack that should be blockable by default takes a limitation. But to say "You both paid 45 points for a 9d6 Blast - this one can be blocked by anyone and that one can only be blocked by a select few, but you both pay 45 points for 9d6" is unfair.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

To me' date=' one of the biggest weaknesses of 5e Missile Deflection was its definition by SFX. To continue that in the form of Block rules into 6e is, in my opinion, a poor decision.[/quote']

 

There's a difference though. 5E had those groups of SFX pretty clearly defined in official lingo, whereas 6E leaves it a lot more up to the GM. So the GM is free to leave SFX completely out of it, or draw the line at a point that is reasonable for "fairness between different SFX" or whatever. In that sense I think it was not so bad decision, myself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking or Deflection

 

There's a difference though. 5E had those groups of SFX pretty clearly defined in official lingo' date=' whereas 6E leaves it a lot more up to the GM. So the GM is free to leave SFX completely out of it, or draw the line at a point that is reasonable for "fairness between different SFX" or whatever. In that sense I think it was not so bad decision, myself.[/quote']

 

To clarify, I think allowing characters, by default, to Block ranged attacks in 6e was a terrific decision. If anything was a bad decision in 6e itself, it was leaving the out for the GM to say "Character X cannot block Attack Y".

 

The bad decision I see is GM's deciding they will allow "cannot be blocked as a default", or imposing "can be blocked as a default" on certain attacks, wth no offsetting detriment/benefit and no change in cost for those atacks which are more/less difficult to block than the default.