Markdoc Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... You'd still make it pretty easy to build an Entangle/Barrier killer by buying 60 points worth of No STUN dice (26.5)' date=' giving an average of 26.5 Body per attack. Obviously it's a cheezed-out build but its one of the same weaknesses I found with doing separate Body and Stun dice before.[/quote'] Right, but as I commented to Sean, in the original thread, if you push the advantage out to +11, you'll get some unbalanced results. However, I think most GM's would look askance at any attack that was advantaged to +11! Compare it against what we can do now - you can build an even more effective Entangle/barrier killer with: Killing Attack - Ranged 1/2d6, No Normal Defense ([standard]; +1), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (10 shots; +2) (60 Active Points) giving you an average of 25 BOD, that has no normal Defences - and, costs no END and does stun into the bargain. Against a normal target the autofire 10 probably won't get many hits (though it'll still hurt), but against a building, giant robot or entangle, it should work fine. However, few GM's would allow such a power! Had such a rule been added to the toolkit, I'd have Exclamation-signed it and suggested that GM's look closely at any usage above +2 (though actually the math looks pretty good out to about +5 in advantages). The fact that you really have to push the system to the extreme to break it, suggests it's pretty robust, to me. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... I can't remember, has anyone ever suggested the idea of a Body Multiplier instead? Roll the dice and count them like a Normal Attack, total = Stun and the Body is 0-2. Then roll a D6 or something and multiply the Body by that number. Call it, I dunno, 10 points/1D6. skip the 1 pip KA thing and jump in 1/2D6 increments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... I'm sure somebody did. On SETAC I suggested doing the reverse; making Normal and Killing attacks work using Killing style dice' date=' with a higher Stun Multiple for Normal attacks. Didn't go over too well.[/quote'] Mainly because most of us prefer a less volatile combat system. I could see providing a "no volatility" (standard effect), "high volatility" (xd6 with a multiple) and "mid volatility" (normal attack and a modified KA) approach for each power, to allow the players and GM to set the level of volatility desired for the specific game. If you want combat to be less certain, use the higher volatility approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... I can't remember, has anyone ever suggested the idea of a Body Multiplier instead? Roll the dice and count them like a Normal Attack, total = Stun and the Body is 0-2. Then roll a D6 or something and multiply the Body by that number. Call it, I dunno, 10 points/1D6. skip the 1 pip KA thing and jump in 1/2D6 increments. 60 points gets 6d6 x 1d6 Body Min = 0b/6s Average = 21b/21s Max = 72b/36s Seems a bit much, especially compared to the 6E 4d6 KA Min = 4b/4s Ave = 14b/28s Max = 24b/72s Let's try a 1d3 Body Min = 0b/6s Ave = 12b/21s Max = 36b/36s Better, though I'm still not thrilled with the max body and the Stun nerf seems even harsher than now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... Part of the problem, maybe, is we expect guns to be a kill threat with as little as 15 active points in them. Maybe we should change how KAs work and just spend more on attacks that can one-shot kill? Maybe we should ditch resistant defence in its current form altogether. So....you've got 10pd, which means you are harder than a normal human. YET a bullet has the same effect because you have no rPD. What if....just thinking aloud here....we has some sort of attack multiplier that made attacks progressively more deadly. Hmmm...actually let's change damage too, while we are at it. OK, this is something we've talked about befopre but there are some extra bells and whistles here... Roll your damage, subtract PD, divide by (say) 5 to get the Body damage (no rounding - ignore fractions). More dangerous attacks take an adder or advantage (+1/4, say) that reduces the kill ratio by 3: 1/3 then 1/1. So: 6d6 attack with a +1/2 advantage against (that's 45 active points: should be about 18 PD in a supers game) 18 PD: you get about 3 points through but that would be 3 stun AND 3 body. Defences can ALSO buy an advantage that increases the kill ratio by 2: without having massively higher defences you can become largely untroubled by 'killing' attacks. I have not thought this right through - it is just stream of consciousness. Hmm. Might also want a heroic 'gritty' rule that actual Body damage does a minimum of X stun: where X is 2 or 3 (or even 1d6) - so in the above example the stun would have been 6 or 9 because, you know, a3 Body wound HURTS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... So: 6d6 attack with a +1/2 advantage against (that's 45 active points: should be about 18 PD in a supers game) 18 PD: you get about 3 points through but that would be 3 stun AND 3 body. The flaw is right here: since people almost always have more STUN than BOD, any such attack that can KO someone will almost always kill them first. Not what we are looking for. At least, not what I am looking for and I voted "more killy" cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... The flaw is right here: since people almost always have more STUN than BOD, any such attack that can KO someone will almost always kill them first. Not what we are looking for. At least, not what I am looking for and I voted "more killy" cheers, Mark Ah, but then, we might look again at the effects of Body damage, so that it is not the binary 'alive or dead' counter it is at present: perhaps you suffer penalties, or even become incapacitated, at certain percentages of your total. I think this will require a holistic approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... Based on responses to Sean's poll, I have another idea. NA do STUN + BODY NNDA do STUN KA do BODY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... And now you know why g-a says "Bloody KAs!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... And now you know why g-a says "Bloody KAs!" All too true. Even I am getting tired of this debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZilla Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... My other though is a stun mult of 1d{1' date='2,2,3,3,4} which also has a nice curve (ok a nice scatter graph), but calls for some custom dice.[/quote'] Not really. Just take a d6 with pips instead of numbers, and color in 4 pips on the 6 side, and 2 pips on the 5 side. And since it is the "stun die", you only need one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... I've been doing some experimental builds based on KD doing 3x STUN Multiplier and a possible new Ad/DisAd of "Change STUN Multiplier" which is -1/4 for each -1 down to a minimum of 1x STUN Multiplier and +1/4 for each +1 up to a maxmium of 5x STUN Multiplier. Perliminary results seem reasonable so far. What do others think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... 5ER p194. The values are standard. We've used a Flat StunX of 3 and a max StunX of 5 for years. Works pretty well, I definitely recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki-rin Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Re: Well, we haven't talked about Killing Attacks in a while... 5ER p194. The values are standard. We've used a Falt StunX of 3 and a max StunX of 5 for years. Works pretty well, I definitely recommend it. "D'oh!" No wonder it sounded so reasonable.:o *Ki-rin realizes just how forgetful he is getting as he gets older* Thanks Ghost_Angel. ...and I agree that this is much better than any STUN Lottery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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