No Gliding Limitation (6E)

[Tasha]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Ok since I obviously wasn't clear.

 

6e1 pg 228

"If a character only wants to be able to Glide, he can buy Flight with the -1 Limitation, Gliding. In this case, the character's Full Move with Gliding is defined as he number of meters of Flight he bought, but otherwise all the rules outlined above apple (including that Gliding costs no END to use)"

 

(Italicized words are as they appear in 6e)

 

Tasha

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

I'm not arguing that the cost of gliding is necessarily wrong: I was but then I was not taking into account the 1m acceleration comes from 1m drop that Hugh mentioned. I had not realised that either. If anything, gliding is too expensive.

 

What I don't like is how it is done. It feels arbitrary. I don't like including 'gliding' in the flight power to start off with, and I don't like a limitaiton that doubles the base movement. It sets a bad precedent.

 

Hmm. That's another way to look at it:

 

20m flight includes 10m of gliding already, so what you're doing is applying '0 END' to the rest of the gliding (cost +5) and then the gliding limitation to that part:

 

The cost of 20m flight is 20 points

The cost of 10m flight 0 END costs +5 points

 

Total 25 points: then apply gliding...I suppose that approach is more acceptable but it is still messy. There's no good reason you need to make gliding '0 END' by default, or add the gliding component to flight. To turn Derek's question to me: was flight too expensive before? If not, why does it need additional compenents now?

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

You don't have to buy Reduced Endurance on your Flight to get Gliding. If you want 20m of pure Gliding, you buy:

Flight: 20m [20 Active]; Gliding (-1) [10 Real]

Since buying the Flight as Gliding only gives you your full Flight distance in Gliding instead of half of it. If you don't put the Gliding Limitation on your Flight:

Flight: 20m [20 Active, 20 Real]

then you can use half your Flight distance to Glide (10m in this case) anyway, and it still costs 0 End without any Reduced Endurance Advantage.

 

I know: it is like 5e regeneration: rules made up to fit a particular vision. There's no need to model old style gliding in a new way, but that is what this does.

 

That's not gliding. That's Flight' date=' 0 END, which is not the same thing as Gliding. With the power you described, you can take off, gain altitude whenever you like, don't have to drop altitude to maintain velocity, don't need an atmosphere, etc. That's not the same thing as gliding. Don't forget that the freebie Gliding aspect of Flight is [i']at the GM's option[/i], so there are no guarantees. Your version of flight above is pretty well guaranteed.

 

You stopped quoting before the bit that turned 0 END flight into gliding: the gliding limitation. I get that I'm moving against the tide here, but my point is that 'freebie gliding' is something that has been added to flight, unnecessarily, and converting that to old style gliding is done in a 'don't look up my sleeves, just believe it is magic' way. I don't like that sort of mularkey, but I can just Tippex over that bit when I eventually get the books. IMO Hero is something that can be built from principles. Gliding COULD be built from flight as was, but instead we mutate flight. I think it is damaging to the overall feel of the game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

What would you replace it with then? "Gliding Only" as a -2 limitation that doesn't remove the halving of distance? Because I think pricing gliding equal to flight (without 0 End) would be massively too expensive.

 

From a "system purity" perspective, I'd replace it with "Gliding Only" that does not halve the distance (ie the limitation removes all aspects of flight other than the ability to glide that the character would receive if the flight had no limitations) at a limitation value of -3 to maintain the same cost of 1 point for 1 meter of gliding.

 

Alternatively, I would continue with Gliding as its own separate power at a cost of 1 point per meter.

 

As a third alternative, I would remove the automatic "half your flight is also Gliding" and make "Gliding Flight" a -1 limitation which imposes all of the Gliding limitations without changing the meters available, so 20 meters of Flight "Only Gliding" would be 20 meters of Gliding, and cost 10 points.

 

I'm actually more inclined to go back to "separate power", so that other limitations on Gliding are not reduced in effect. If you want Flight that also can be used as Gliding, put "usable as a second mode of movement" on it, or slap it in a Multipower (and fix the "using two modes of movement as a single move" nonsense - we can have multiple powers used in a single attack, so there's no reason we can't have multiple movement powers used in a single move). Gliding has enough different parameters (0 END, modified acceleration and altitude rules, etc.) that it seems best as its own power.

 

I'm not arguing that the cost of gliding is necessarily wrong: I was but then I was not taking into account the 1m acceleration comes from 1m drop that Hugh mentioned. I had not realised that either. If anything' date=' gliding is too expensive.[/quote']

 

I've never found it unbalanced, and I've never applied, or seen applied, the "1" down per 1" acceleration" rule.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

I'd remove the gliding 'bonus power' for flight for a start: it has only been put there so that gliding can be justified IMO.

 

Then I'd allow 'gliding' as a -1/2 on flight: 'must lose at least 2m height per phase unless GM decides otherwise due to environmental conditions'

 

It would cost END, but why shouldn't it: if you want it to not cost END then buy the advantage.

 

The trouble with having it as a separate power is it costs too little, especially in a MP: 20m flight = 40m gliding - you can get some massive combat velocities going very cheaply.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

I'd remove the gliding 'bonus power' for flight for a start: it has only been put there so that gliding can be justified IMO.

 

Then I'd allow 'gliding' as a -1/2 on flight: 'must lose at least 2m height per phase unless GM decides otherwise due to environmental conditions'

 

It would cost END, but why shouldn't it: if you want it to not cost END then buy the advantage.

 

The trouble with having it as a separate power is it costs too little, especially in a MP: 20m flight = 40m gliding - you can get some massive combat velocities going very cheaply.

But again... "Gliding" as a limited form of Flight costs and behaves exactly the same in 6th Edition as it did in 5th. If you had no problem with it then, what's the problem now?

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

But again... "Gliding" as a limited form of Flight costs and behaves exactly the same in 6th Edition as it did in 5th. If you had no problem with it then' date=' what's the problem now? [/quote']

 

Flight, however, doesn't behave exactly as it did in 5th edition: it has been messed with and does more now than it did then - an unnecessary complication. I might ask whether you had a problem with flight in 5th.

 

The more I think of it the more I think 'gliding' is building a power to emulate a specific sfx, which offends against my Hero-sense. It may not have caused many problems in 5th (although cause problems it did, especially in a MP with Flight - I'd always limit the gliding to the flight distance otherwise things got VERY silly).

 

Sometimes this sort of thing throws a problem into relief: it is not necessarily a problem with the cost or the utility - it is a problem with concept though - what does Gliding add to Hero that applying Power Modifiers to Flight could not accomplish?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Flight' date=' however, doesn't behave exactly as it did in 5th edition: it has been messed with and does more now than it did then - an unnecessary complication. I might ask whether you had a problem with flight in 5th.[/quote']Okay, fair enough. But that hardly seems like a reason to change the cost of Gliding (as you've suggested earlier in this thread, by arguing that the Limitation for "Gliding only" is too large).

Sometimes this sort of thing throws a problem into relief: it is not necessarily a problem with the cost or the utility - it is a problem with concept though - what does Gliding add to Hero that applying Power Modifiers to Flight could not accomplish?

What' date=' as a separate power? Nothing. That's why it was folded into Flight and is now built by applying Power Modifiers to Flight. But I do see your point. I think you could make a strong argument that (A) Flight as presented should not allow gliding for free, and ( that building the Gliding effect could/should include the purchase of 0 END as an Advantage, and the gliding restrictions as a Limitation. I don't [b']agree[/b] with that take, necessarily. But you could make a strong argument...

 

One issue would be that it would actually make Gliding be more Active Points than an equal amount of Flight, which seems very odd... (END or no END).

[prestidigitator]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

When put those ways, I think I basically agree with Sean and Hugh.

 

Actually, I don't really have a problem with the ability to glide being a part of Flight, but I think I would have done it exactly the opposite from the way Steve did: I'd make your Gliding distance twice your normal Flight distance (or perhaps equal to it, I suppose), and allow the character to maintain the velocity (and spend 0 End) only so long as they act according to the restrictions on Gliding. Heck, you normally gain velocity when flying downward (with gravity) in any case, though perhaps not to the same degree.

 

Of course, I'd personally add the exact same thing to Running and call it "Coasting" (or "Rolling" for some vehicles).

[phookz]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

You stopped quoting before the bit that turned 0 END flight into gliding: the gliding limitation.

 

So I did; I apologize, it was unintentional. I went back and read it again, and I'll be honest, I can't follow what you're saying after that point, but it's not worth arguing.

 

I get that I'm moving against the tide here' date=' but my point is that 'freebie gliding' is something that has been added to flight, unnecessarily, and converting that to old style gliding is done in a 'don't look up my sleeves, just believe it is magic' way. I don't like that sort of mularkey, but I can just Tippex over that bit when I eventually get the books. IMO Hero is something that can be built from principles. Gliding COULD be built from flight as was, but instead we mutate flight. I think it is damaging to the overall feel of the game.[/quote']

 

I don't see the 6E Gliding as a mutation of Flight, but rather that Flight now has an added Gliding facet to it. It makes a lot of sense on one hand, but as others have pointed out, why doesn't Running have this as well.

 

What if we tried to build the new Flight - how would it point out:

8 6E Style Flight w/ Gliding: Multipower, 10-point reserve, (10 Active Points); all slots Unified Power (-1/4)

1f 1) He Can Fly!: Flight 10m (10 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 1

1f 2) He Can Glide!: Flight 5m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4), Gliding Restrictions (-1) 0

 

Did I do this right? Anyone see any problem with this build? It points out the same, which makes me feel the new Flight isn't really problematic at all.

[SteveZilla]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Folding Gliding into Flight possibly makes building some vehicles easier. For example, a fixed-wing aircraft in 5ER would need to purchase the base Flight (for wings + engines on), then either add (for wings w/out engines) Useable As Gliding *and* a Naked Advantage of Zero END - Only When Using Flight As Gliding(-?) -- or buy the two seperately, but limit the Flight so that it needs both the Engines and the Wings...

[SteveZilla]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

And...

 

40 5ER Flight Only: Flight 20"

10 5ER Gliding Only: Gliding 10"

 

32 6E Flight Only: Flight 40m - No Gliding(-1/4)

10 6E Gliding Only: Flight 20m - Gliding(-1)

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

That's a good strong argument for 'No Gliding' being -0, which is an argument for not having gliding as part of flight at all.

 

IMO

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

........................

 

One issue would be that it would actually make Gliding be more Active Points than an equal amount of Flight, which seems very odd... (END or no END).

 

Gliding that costs END would cost no more active points than flight. While I'm no this, I'm somewhat disappointed that Swimming and Swinging still exist and are 1 point for 2m - that may be a discussion for another day though. Certainly swimming is pretty difficult to simply remove, but swinging isn't.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

...................

 

What if we tried to build the new Flight - how would it point out:

8 6E Style Flight w/ Gliding: Multipower, 10-point reserve, (10 Active Points); all slots Unified Power (-1/4)

1f 1) He Can Fly!: Flight 10m (10 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 1

1f 2) He Can Glide!: Flight 5m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4), Gliding Restrictions (-1) 0

 

Did I do this right? Anyone see any problem with this build? It points out the same, which makes me feel the new Flight isn't really problematic at all.

 

 

Is this 'Unified MP' an official thing, because if so, roll on 7e...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Gliding that costs END would cost no more active points than flight.

It also wouldn't be Gliding.

[SteveZilla]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

So I did; I apologize, it was unintentional. I went back and read it again, and I'll be honest, I can't follow what you're saying after that point, but it's not worth arguing.

 

I don't see the 6E Gliding as a mutation of Flight, but rather that Flight now has an added Gliding facet to it. It makes a lot of sense on one hand, but as others have pointed out, why doesn't Running have this as well.

 

Have what? The ability to "Coast downhill"? Hmmmm...

 

What if we tried to build the new Flight - how would it point out:

 

8 6E Style Flight w/ Gliding: Multipower, 10-point reserve, (10 Active Points); all slots Unified Power (-1/4)

1f 1) He Can Fly!: Flight 10m (10 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4) 1

1f 2) He Can Glide!: Flight 5m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Unified Power (-1/4), Gliding Restrictions (-1) 0

 

Did I do this right? Anyone see any problem with this build? It points out the same, which makes me feel the new Flight isn't really problematic at all.

 

I think the second slot doesn't need Reduced Endurance. Just the 5m of Flight and the Gliding(-1) Limitation (and the UP as well).

[phookz]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Is this 'Unified MP' an official thing' date=' because if so, roll on 7e...[/quote']

 

That was the question that I was asking. I think it is book legal.

 

Without Unified Power, any drains on the MP will only affect a single slot (6E1 p140); having the Unified Power effect means that a drain on any slot will affect all of them. This makes sense for this MP, the Gliding is meant to be a reduced form of Flight. If you have the same limitation on every slot, then you may also apply the limitation to the reserve (6E1 p 406).

 

Have what? The ability to "Coast downhill"? Hmmmm...

 

I think the second slot doesn't need Reduced Endurance. Just the 5m of Flight and the Gliding(-1) Limitation (and the UP as well).

 

That's correct, it doesn't by 6E rules, I was trying to build something like the freebie Gliding without using new modifications to Flight, which is why it's in there. It was based on what Sean had been saying about the free Gliding that you get when you buy Flight, and was thrown up more as an example of another way to get the same thing the new Flight gives you.

 

I think the free Gliding with Flight will make dramatic and common sense in a number of situations, and I suspect that's why it has been added. I would prefer it not be free as well, but then again, I don't see it as a deal-breaker; it's really not that big an issue with me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

It also wouldn't be Gliding.

 

Well, it wouldn't be 5e Gliding.

 

Why should Gliding not cost END? It is not as if it CAN'T cost END (you can build Gliding Costs END without setting off the alarms in the SteveCave). A decision was made, in PreHerostry, that was how it works, before we'd really got the 'reason from effect' dogma fully implanted. Now we can laugh at such juvenile fumblings, and emerge, fully formed and whole in body, mind and soul, into a brave new world, devoid of such confusion.

 

Gods, but I love beer.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

That was the question that I was asking. I think it is book legal.

 

Without Unified Power, any drains on the MP will only affect a single slot (6E1 p140); having the Unified Power effect means that a drain on any slot will affect all of them. This makes sense for this MP, the Gliding is meant to be a reduced form of Flight. If you have the same limitation on every slot, then you may also apply the limitation to the reserve (6E1 p 406).

 

.............

 

 

However a limitation that doesn't limit is not worth anything. Whilst the MP is arguably limited, the actual slots are not, so you can not apply the limitation to them, and as you can not apply the limitation to JUST one thing (the pool - although, arguably, the whole MP is 'just one thing anyway), I'd say it is not legal, not at -1/4. -0, I'd give you.

[phookz]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

However a limitation that doesn't limit is not worth anything. Whilst the MP is arguably limited' date=' the actual slots are not, so you can not apply the limitation to them, and as you can not apply the limitation to JUST one thing (the pool - although, arguably, the whole MP is 'just one thing anyway), I'd say it is not legal, not at -1/4. -0, I'd give you.[/quote']

 

So, if the limitation were a Focus instead of Unified Power, you wouldn't allow that for the reserve and the slots either?

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

So' date=' if the limitation were a Focus instead of Unified Power, you wouldn't allow that for the reserve and the slots either?[/quote']

 

Why not? I'd allow it for the base power.

 

12d6 Blast OAF: 30 points

 

30 MP 60 point pool All slots OAF

3 12d6 Blast

3 4d6 RKA

 

The problem is you can allow this:

 

48 MP 60 point pool All slots Unified Power

5 12d6 Blast

5 4d6 RKA

 

But you can not allow this:

 

48 12d6 EB (unified power)

 

I would not even allow this:

 

48 12d6 EB (negatively adjusted by powers affecting Blast OR RKA -1/4)

 

That simply is not enough of a limitation to count.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

NB if I did have a MP with Focus, none of this 'a whole lot of guns' foolishness: the pool has OAF on it, so you can take away the pool with one grab. It is one gun that fires several types of ammo.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

NB if I did have a MP with Focus' date=' none of this 'a whole lot of guns' foolishness: the pool has OAF on it, so you can take away the pool with one grab. It is one gun that fires several types of ammo.[/quote']

 

By the book, if all the slots have the same limitation, that limitation is also applied to the pool (with very limited exceptions).

 

Now, what if our Glider/Flyer were to also buy, say, Extra Limbs - Wings which have limited manipulation, and are also part of the Unified Power? Now there is a power outside the MP which is also affected by the UP limitation. Does buying this small ability outside the MP justify the limitation?

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

By the book, if all the slots have the same limitation, that limitation is also applied to the pool (with very limited exceptions).

 

Now, what if our Glider/Flyer were to also buy, say, Extra Limbs - Wings which have limited manipulation, and are also part of the Unified Power? Now there is a power outside the MP which is also affected by the UP limitation. Does buying this small ability outside the MP justify the limitation?

 

Yes: why? because you could apply it to the base power whether or not it is in a MP.

 

It is probably not worth -1/4 in a lot of cases because being vulnerable to drains affecting two powers is simply not worth the single most beneficial limitation value, but it's got to be better than ECs. I'm willing to pay to see them gone.