No Gliding Limitation (6E)

[prestidigitator]

Gliding is now built-in to Flight. For Flight that can only be used for Gliding, you can take a -1 Limitation. What do you think about Flight that cannot be used for Gliding (probably mostly for jetpacks, etc.)? Do you think it should get a Limitation now? If so, should it be a -1/4 or what? Interesting that this does not seem to be addressed in the book....

[Duke Bushido]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Hhmmm...

 

Before thinking about it, can you tell me if Gliding END is different from "straight" Flight endurance?

[Tasha]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Hhmmm...

 

Before thinking about it, can you tell me if Gliding END is different from "straight" Flight endurance?

 

It would be the same. Since limiting the power wouldn't change the active cost. ie Yes gliding costs more endurance to use.

[prestidigitator]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Actually Gliding costs 0 End. That's kinda the point. Your Gliding distance equals half your Flight distance, has the same basic movement restrictions as in 5E (and before; being that you can't gain altitude easily, must lose altitude to move horizontally, etc.), and costs 0 End to use.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

If Prestidigitator is correct on the END, then right away loosing the ability to Glide would make a prolonged flight much more exhausting.

[prestidigitator]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Well...

 

At the GM’s option, any character who has Flight can also Glide...

...

A character’s Full Move with Gliding equals his Half Move with Combat Movement Flight, but Gliding doesn’t cost END.

 

Gliding has some restrictions....

...

If a character only wants to be able to Glide, he can buy Flight with the -1 Limitation, Gliding. In this case, the character’s Full Move with Gliding is defined as the number of meters of Flight he bought, but otherwise all the rules outlined above apply (including that Gliding costs no END to use).

[Tasha]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Actually Gliding costs 0 End. That's kinda the point. Your Gliding distance equals half your Flight distance' date=' has the same basic movement restrictions as in 5E (and before; being that you can't gain altitude easily, must lose altitude to move horizontally, etc.), and costs 0 End to use.[/quote']

 

He is correct. Looking it up. Gliding costs no endurance and is a property of standard flight. Basically your full move gliding is = to your Half move using regular Flight.

 

There is a -1 limitation for flight that only allows gliding. The nice thing is that with the limitation you get your Full flight length in meters for your Gliding movement. It also keeps the 0 end aspects of Gliding as well.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

He is correct. Looking it up. Gliding costs no endurance and is a property of standard flight. Basically your full move gliding is = to your Half move using regular Flight.

 

There is a -1 limitation for flight that only allows gliding. The nice thing is that with the limitation you get your Full flight length in meters for your Gliding movement. It also keeps the 0 end aspects of Gliding as well.

Doesn't that also include the not so nice things like having to lose altitude to go your full distance, and hardly being able to gain altitude and losing velocity if you do certain things (like try to go up), or did all of that change in 6E?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

To answer the original question, Yes, I would have to assume that Flight that doesn't allow Gliding would be worth some kind of a Limitation. I'd say it would have to be only -1/4 no matter what, because if it was -1/2, it could offset the cost (Real, if not Active) of 0 END, which would make regular full-powered Flight superior to Gliding anyway...

[prestidigitator]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

To answer the original question' date=' Yes, I would have to assume that Flight that doesn't allow Gliding would be worth some kind of a Limitation. I'd say it would have to be only -1/4 no matter what, because if it was -1/2, it could offset the cost (Real, if not Active) of 0 END, which would make regular full-powered Flight superior to Gliding anyway... [/quote']

 

Good point! That's a nice comparison. Rep.

[ghost-angel]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Derek beat me to it. -1/4 for losing an ability, but not more.

 

You must spread Rep yadda yadda.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

It seems to me that 'Gliding Only' is far too generous at -1. If I'm reading this right, you do NOT halve the flight inches when you can only glide, it costs no END and you have the normal gliding restrictions (have to drop 2m per phase but can climb at GM discretion, might need a DEX roll to land exactly where you want to, starting height and velocity = leap).

 

So, 10m of flight, no END costs 15 points, but 10m of gliding costs 5 points, so the gliding limitation is actually worth -2, if you properly account for 0 END.

 

Far too much.

 

Question: If you bought Flight at 0 END, would you allow any limitation for 'no gliding' especially given the new power visibility rules?

 

I think this was an attempt to create the old version and cost of gliding, without necessarily going through all the working.

 

Gliding = 'No End Flight' +1/2 with control limitations (which are probably worth -1/2; -1 only if the GM is VERY drunk) giving a final cost of 0.7 to 1 point per metre of gliding.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Wow! That wasn't included. Most of my flying heroes couldn't rationally glide and could use only real powered flight.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

He is correct. Looking it up. Gliding costs no endurance and is a property of standard flight. Basically your full move gliding is = to your Half move using regular Flight.

 

There is a -1 limitation for flight that only allows gliding. The nice thing is that with the limitation you get your Full flight length in meters for your Gliding movement. It also keeps the 0 end aspects of Gliding as well.

 

I would suggest the true limitation is -3. 10 meters of Flight, Gliding only that results in 10 meters of Gliding is really 20 meters of Flight, Gliding only without removing the "gliding only gets half your flight distance" rule.

 

Of course, 10" Flight in 5e cost 20 points, and 20 meters in 6e costs 20 points. 10" Gliding in 5e cost 10 points, and 20 meters of gliding costs 10 points in 6e. If the balance wasn't out of whack in 5e, it's not out of whack in 6e.

 

The most significant 5e drawback of Gliding (read the rules before contradicting me - I just tripped over it myself a week or two ago) is the requirement to lose 1" altitude for every 1" acceleration. So if you had 30" Gliding, you needed to lose 30" altitude to achieve that velocity.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

I would suggest the true limitation is -3. 10 meters of Flight' date=' Gliding only that results in 10 meters of Gliding is really 20 meters of Flight, Gliding only without removing the "gliding only gets half your flight distance" rule.[/quote']

 

-2, surely: 10m of flight at 0 END (-limitations) gets you 5m of gliding?

 

 

...........................

 

The most significant 5e drawback of Gliding (read the rules before contradicting me - I just tripped over it myself a week or two ago) is the requirement to lose 1" altitude for every 1" acceleration. So if you had 30" Gliding' date=' you needed to lose 30" altitude to achieve that velocity.[/quote']

 

Great point. I'm withdrawing my objection to the -1! I might even agree that it is worth -2 but the way of doing it does seem a bit cock-eyed.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

I think this was an attempt to create the old version and cost of gliding' date=' without necessarily going through all the working[/quote']So did you think Gliding was too expensive/too powerful before? If not, then I see no issue...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

-2' date=' surely: 10m of flight at 0 END (-limitations) gets you 5m of gliding?[/quote']

 

20 meters of flight costs 20 points and gets you 10 meters of Gliding. To get 10 meters of gliding only costs 5 points (10 meters of Flight, Gliding only). If we remove the "gliding isn't halved if your flight only glides" inconsistency, you would buy 20 m Flight which only lets you Glide 10m, which is 1/4 the cost of the flight. The effective limitation is -3.

 

Whether that's appropriately priced or not is another question entirely.

[Ice9]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

-2 (effectively) sounds about right actually.

1) Massively less useful in combat.

2) Can't escape from pits, quickly reach rooftops, or stop an escaping helicopter.

3) Can't even reliably travel long distance without a second movement power to gain height or tall things to jump off.

 

The effective limitation is -3.

When comparing 10" of flight (0 End) to 10" of gliding, the gliding costs 1/3 as much, hence a -2 effective limitation. That a hypothetical method would cost more isn't relevant.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

20 meters of flight costs 20 points and gets you 10 meters of Gliding. To get 10 meters of gliding only costs 5 points (10 meters of Flight, Gliding only). If we remove the "gliding isn't halved if your flight only glides" inconsistency, you would buy 20 m Flight which only lets you Glide 10m, which is 1/4 the cost of the flight. The effective limitation is -3.

 

Whether that's appropriately priced or not is another question entirely.

 

I think you are applying the limtations twice: 20 metres of flight costs 20 points and gets you 10 metres of gliding.

 

10 metres of gliding costs you 5 points AFTER you apply the limitation. Actually it costs 30 points (20 pints of flight at zero END) AND THEN a limitation for 'gliding only' (bear in mid the '0 END thing' is stupid: you still have to pay the ful whack for 0 END flight despite the fact that 'gliding' is part of it).

 

To be worth -3, the 'parent power' would have to cost 4x as much: it doesn't.

 

I'm arguing that the whole cost construct is wrong, bady conceived.

 

Here's gliding:

 

Flight 10 metres: 10 points

0 END: +5 points

 

Cost: 15 points

 

THEN 'Gliding only': geting you 5 metres of gliding: a -2 limtation on 'real' flight.

 

'Gliding only' becomes both an advantage (you do not have to halve the distance) and a limitation (gliding stuff: quaere - if you switch from flight to gliding (assuming 'normal' flight) do you lose your velocity if you are not diving - precedent says you do). I'm violently opposed to 'both advantage and limitation' in one 'thing'. This is going to attract 'regeneration' arguments: if it is a rule, you can not argue with it, but I'm arguing that the rule is badly constructed to start off with.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

I think you are applying the limtations twice: 20 metres of flight costs 20 points and gets you 10 metres of gliding.

 

And if I apply the "-1 limitation", I get 20 meters of gliding for 10 points. So I'm getting only the Gliding component of 40 meters of Flight (the fellow who paid 20 points for 20 meters of flight didn't get 20 meters of Gliding) for a cost of 1/4 the cost of 40 meters of flight.

[Ice9]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

but I'm arguing that the rule is badly constructed to start off with.

What would you replace it with then? "Gliding Only" as a -2 limitation that doesn't remove the halving of distance? Because I think pricing gliding equal to flight (without 0 End) would be massively too expensive.

[phookz]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

Here's gliding:

 

Flight 10 metres: 10 points

0 END: +5 points

 

Cost: 15 points

 

That's not gliding. That's Flight, 0 END, which is not the same thing as Gliding. With the power you described, you can take off, gain altitude whenever you like, don't have to drop altitude to maintain velocity, don't need an atmosphere, etc. That's not the same thing as gliding. Don't forget that the freebie Gliding aspect of Flight is at the GM's option, so there are no guarantees. Your version of flight above is pretty well guaranteed.

 

I'd say those are pretty big limitations.

 

'Gliding only' becomes both an advantage (you do not have to halve the distance) and a limitation (gliding stuff: quaere - if you switch from flight to gliding (assuming 'normal' flight) do you lose your velocity if you are not diving - precedent says you do). I'm violently opposed to 'both advantage and limitation' in one 'thing'. This is going to attract 'regeneration' arguments: if it is a rule, you can not argue with it, but I'm arguing that the rule is badly constructed to start off with.

 

I don't see the problem with it. The example comparisons you're providing are apples and oranges. The cost structure is exactly what it was before; the only thing new in 6E is that you get limited Gliding for free when you buy Flight, at the GM's option. Just remember that Flight, 0 END is not the same thing as Gliding. If it makes you happier, make Gliding a separate power like it was in previous editions, and don't allow the freebie gliding; the cost is the same.

[prestidigitator]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

I think you are applying the limtations twice: 20 metres of flight costs 20 points and gets you 10 metres of gliding.

 

10 metres of gliding costs you 5 points AFTER you apply the limitation. Actually it costs 30 points (20 pints of flight at zero END) AND THEN a limitation for 'gliding only' (bear in mid the '0 END thing' is stupid: you still have to pay the ful whack for 0 END flight despite the fact that 'gliding' is part of it).

 

You don't have to buy Reduced Endurance on your Flight to get Gliding. If you want 20m of pure Gliding, you buy:

 

Flight: 20m [20 Active]; Gliding (-1) [10 Real]

 

Since buying the Flight as Gliding only gives you your full Flight distance in Gliding instead of half of it. If you don't put the Gliding Limitation on your Flight:

 

Flight: 20m [20 Active, 20 Real]

 

then you can use half your Flight distance to Glide (10m in this case) anyway, and it still costs 0 End without any Reduced Endurance Advantage.

[Beast]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

in the sidebar discriptions page 228 of 6e bk1

Parachute is 12m of flight with gliding and the limited movement

glider cape is also giving a full movement

 

the limitations looks to say you get the full amount of flight but you have to follow all the restrictions and it includes becoming a zero end power

this is what it implies to me

the gliding limitation countermands the gliding option here

 

If a character only wants to be able to Glide, he

can buy Flight with the -1 Limitation, Gliding. In

this case, the character’s Full Move with Gliding

is defined as the number of meters of Flight he

bought, but otherwise all the rules outlined above

apply (including that Gliding costs no END to

use).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: No Gliding Limitation (6E)

 

What phookz said.