Elemental Controls

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Gary

About 250 pts in characteristics, 200 pts in skills and martial arts, 50 pts in perks, 200 pts in vehicles and bases, 50 pt gadget pool, and 75-100 pts in commonly used gadgets.

That's 825-850, and you left out Talents, including but not limited to Ambidexterity, Combat Sense, Danger Sense, Double Jointed, Eidetic Memory, Lightning Calculator, Lightsleep, Perfect Pitch, and Speed Reading.

 

Batmobile, Batplane, and Batcave on 200 points? Maybe.

 

Originally posted by Gary

He is not and should not be a starting character, but you can easily scale him back by getting rid of a lot of stuff like the perks, vehicles and bases, and gadget pool. You can use xp to buy that stuff.

That's still 525-550. For the scaled back version. So I ask again, is Batman really the example you want to go with?

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Gary

Nope, you still wouldn't allow the Batman EC. No GM that I know of would think that batarangs, leap, damage reduction, and missile deflection are closely related enough to warrant a EC. Unless you're suggesting that a player could slap down any collection of powers and get a EC bonus?

 

I probably wouldn't allow it, but not because of the two reasons you mentioned, because I don't agree with either of those two rules.

[Kristopher]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the long-time comic-book characters end up with a lot of extraneous crap slapped on them when they're written up in HERO, or other systems.

 

Batman, for example, doesn't have Danger Sense, at least not that I've ever seen. He has a high PER, but he does get blindsided or ambushed from time to time.

 

Spider Man has Danger Sense.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Kristopher

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the long-time comic-book characters end up with a lot of extraneous crap slapped on them when they're written up in HERO, or other systems.

 

Batman, for example, doesn't have Danger Sense, at least not that I've ever seen. He has a high PER, but he does get blindsided or ambushed from time to time.

 

Spider Man has Danger Sense.

Seems that he gets suprised or ambushed about one time out of three, which I interpet as Danger Sense on a 12 or 13 or less. Spider-man has Danger Sense on at least 22-. Call it hyperdeveloped combat instincts, but that's just SX. Bottom line, Bats is prepared for suprise attacks more often than not.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

If you take out the drain one drain all limit, do you really think that these vague intangibles are worth the functional equivalent of a -1 limitation on EC powers (I don't think it's worth -1 even with drain one drain all)? Let's call it what it is, free points for a structure that rarely limits the player.

 

In fact, EC's could be worth even more than -1 if the player can stack other limitations on the framework.

 

Put another way, do you really think that the MP disad is worth 1/10 or 1/5 the points for powers, setting conceptual awards aside? Really?

 

Rhetorical question. I'm sure you do, or you wouldn't argue re the difference. I sure don't, though. Not by a longshot, for the flexibility you get with an MP.

 

Fair point re martial arts stacking. But that doesn't take away from their base values, which is at issue here. ECs stack way too effectivley as you add more, and MPs are worse than ECs that way. If we steer the discussion into which is more abusive when taken advantage of (as opposed to use as anticipated/regulated properly), that's a different topic.

 

As stated, I have seen lots of character concepts that don't work outside of using ECs. I am not arguing there's some "point for concept" (which you insint on calling points for free),but I've yet to see the difference in those points for concept versus MPs or versus the way people (normally) award XPs.

 

And I'm annoyed at one point you make - "vague intangibles". Scew that. There's nothing vague about SFX drains. Are you seriously arguing that if I build a "drain Energy Blast" and all it does is drain active energy blasts that it shouild drain a force field de facto? Now, of course, I shouldn't build "drain EB" as such, I should qualify it. But in my example, I qualified it as a drain on aggressive energy, energy directed at others. Explain to me why that should drain an FF in an EC. This is an area where 5th is dead wrong.

 

It's fine, as I've stated, for you to feel that ECs are way too cost-effective - that's your right - but don't impugn the way many people play them, especially when I have yet to see anyone construct a logical defense of 5th's change aside from "well, it limits it more". hich is only barely logical, as in this game SFX are a major in-play determinant of results.

 

In any case, as I've said and you don't agree (though I'd like to hear more commentary on the different methods), I feel ECs provide a much less arbitrary method of fitting character concepts into a preordained points total, whatever that points total is. HERO has given us a model which removes the arbitariness of "hmm, well, here's an extra 50 points for you, but for you I'm only giving 30". I think they did a good job, ultimately. Everyone bitches about ECs - but I've not seen an effective substitute in play.

 

I think one can be justified in feeling this way simply because it's been playtested and no viable alternative has been embraced by HERO as of yet. Even aside from that legacy, which one is free to disregard, I feel from pure experience that it's clear ECs are not unfair (unless the GM makes a mistake, which I've not personally witnessed yet).

[Agent X]

There are plenty of "frameworks" that can be abused. Elemental Controls save a character points.

Martial Arts can save a character points.

Multipowers can save a character points.

Variable Power Pools can save a character points.

What I call "Linked Arrays" can save a character points.

Loading up on characteristics can save a character points.

 

Interestingly, all of these methods can be more expensive than an alternative method of constructing a given character. When your powers aren't of a uniform ap range, the EC savings can be quite limiting.

If you are a martial arts master and buy a bunch of maneuvers you will end up being very point inefficient. It would have been better to build with a multipower to simulate maneuvers.

If you have several powers you want up at once, a multipower isn't the way to go.

A "Linked Array," one power with many other powers linked to it works pretty well but doesn't always fit character concept.

Loading up on characteristics won't do some power concepts much good.

 

There are plenty of alternative ways to get more bang for your buck besides the elemental control. The problem with all this talk about something being under-pointed is that it fails to point out that there are many ways to get cost savings in this game. The horror story of what you get for 50 points of strength is always taken out of context because the person simply ignores what you can do with frameworks and limitations to save points in other ways besides buying strength.

 

The game works. You can break it down, overanalyze it to death, and you are still going to have a hard time showing how these "flaws" amount to anything when the game actually gets played. As a Missourian might say, "Show me." Not by adding points, I want to see it in practice. I'm pretty well set against you being able to show me that ECs are imbalancing because I've played this game for 12 years and I haven't seen it.

[eepjr24]

Originally posted by Agent X

The game works. You can break it down, overanalyze it to death, and you are still going to have a hard time showing how these "flaws" amount to anything when the game actually gets played. As a Missourian might say, "Show me." Not by adding points, I want to see it in practice. I'm pretty well set against you being able to show me that ECs are imbalancing because I've played this game for 12 years and I haven't seen it.

 

Well said. I have to say that in my 14 or so years playing it, I have seen individual constructs that abuse every framework. It is not the constructs themselves that are flawed, it is how people are using them. EC is no better, and no worse, than any of the rest.

 

- Ernie

[Agent X]

Originally posted by eepjr24

Well said. I have to say that in my 14 or so years playing it, I have seen individual constructs that abuse every framework. It is not the constructs themselves that are flawed, it is how people are using them. EC is no better, and no worse, than any of the rest.

 

- Ernie

Thank you. Looks like we're already engaging in teamwork. Villains beware!

[zornwil]

I've been playing, though with a couple breaks, for just about 20 years now (19 or 20). Just to be clear, that's what my experience is based on as well.

 

None of this should discount Gary's experience, but may suggest it's somewhat aberrant.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by zornwil

I've been playing, though with a couple breaks, for just about 20 years now (19 or 20). Just to be clear, that's what my experience is based on as well.

 

None of this should discount Gary's experience, but may suggest it's somewhat aberrant.

Perhaps Gary's profession creates a greater sensitivity to the cost of various aspects of Champions creations?

[Gary]

Originally posted by McCoy

That's 825-850, and you left out Talents, including but not limited to Ambidexterity, Combat Sense, Danger Sense, Double Jointed, Eidetic Memory, Lightning Calculator, Lightsleep, Perfect Pitch, and Speed Reading.

 

Batmobile, Batplane, and Batcave on 200 points? Maybe.

 

 

That's still 525-550. For the scaled back version. So I ask again, is Batman really the example you want to go with?

 

If you want Batman on 350, take Nighthawk as your template and modify a few things. Use experience if you want a true Batman.

[Gary]

Originally posted by zornwil

Put another way, do you really think that the MP disad is worth 1/10 or 1/5 the points for powers, setting conceptual awards aside? Really?

 

Rhetorical question. I'm sure you do, or you wouldn't argue re the difference. I sure don't, though. Not by a longshot, for the flexibility you get with an MP.

 

Fair point re martial arts stacking. But that doesn't take away from their base values, which is at issue here. ECs stack way too effectivley as you add more, and MPs are worse than ECs that way. If we steer the discussion into which is more abusive when taken advantage of (as opposed to use as anticipated/regulated properly), that's a different topic.

 

As stated, I have seen lots of character concepts that don't work outside of using ECs. I am not arguing there's some "point for concept" (which you insint on calling points for free),but I've yet to see the difference in those points for concept versus MPs or versus the way people (normally) award XPs.

 

And I'm annoyed at one point you make - "vague intangibles". Scew that. There's nothing vague about SFX drains. Are you seriously arguing that if I build a "drain Energy Blast" and all it does is drain active energy blasts that it shouild drain a force field de facto? Now, of course, I shouldn't build "drain EB" as such, I should qualify it. But in my example, I qualified it as a drain on aggressive energy, energy directed at others. Explain to me why that should drain an FF in an EC. This is an area where 5th is dead wrong.

 

It's fine, as I've stated, for you to feel that ECs are way too cost-effective - that's your right - but don't impugn the way many people play them, especially when I have yet to see anyone construct a logical defense of 5th's change aside from "well, it limits it more". hich is only barely logical, as in this game SFX are a major in-play determinant of results.

 

In any case, as I've said and you don't agree (though I'd like to hear more commentary on the different methods), I feel ECs provide a much less arbitrary method of fitting character concepts into a preordained points total, whatever that points total is. HERO has given us a model which removes the arbitariness of "hmm, well, here's an extra 50 points for you, but for you I'm only giving 30". I think they did a good job, ultimately. Everyone bitches about ECs - but I've not seen an effective substitute in play.

 

I think one can be justified in feeling this way simply because it's been playtested and no viable alternative has been embraced by HERO as of yet. Even aside from that legacy, which one is free to disregard, I feel from pure experience that it's clear ECs are not unfair (unless the GM makes a mistake, which I've not personally witnessed yet).

 

There is a viable alternative. Simply give the related powers the limitation that it's actually worth. If you have a set of powers, give either a -1/4 or -1/2 limitation that to drain one drains all. To the extent that you give more points than this limitation, it is free points.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

There are plenty of "frameworks" that can be abused. Elemental Controls save a character points.

Martial Arts can save a character points.

Multipowers can save a character points.

Variable Power Pools can save a character points.

What I call "Linked Arrays" can save a character points.

Loading up on characteristics can save a character points.

 

Interestingly, all of these methods can be more expensive than an alternative method of constructing a given character. When your powers aren't of a uniform ap range, the EC savings can be quite limiting.

If you are a martial arts master and buy a bunch of maneuvers you will end up being very point inefficient. It would have been better to build with a multipower to simulate maneuvers.

If you have several powers you want up at once, a multipower isn't the way to go.

A "Linked Array," one power with many other powers linked to it works pretty well but doesn't always fit character concept.

Loading up on characteristics won't do some power concepts much good.

 

There are plenty of alternative ways to get more bang for your buck besides the elemental control. The problem with all this talk about something being under-pointed is that it fails to point out that there are many ways to get cost savings in this game. The horror story of what you get for 50 points of strength is always taken out of context because the person simply ignores what you can do with frameworks and limitations to save points in other ways besides buying strength.

 

The game works. You can break it down, overanalyze it to death, and you are still going to have a hard time showing how these "flaws" amount to anything when the game actually gets played. As a Missourian might say, "Show me." Not by adding points, I want to see it in practice. I'm pretty well set against you being able to show me that ECs are imbalancing because I've played this game for 12 years and I haven't seen it.

 

I've been playing this game since 1985. EC's were far worse in the pre-5th edition days since people would invariably place armor, damage reduction, and characteristics into them if they could get away with it. Or worse, when people used EC Power Armor and got a -1/2 limitation on top of the half point cost of EC slots.

 

In my experience, most characters are either characteristic heavy, or built with attack multipower or vpp and EC movement and defense. I'd be interested in what percentage of characters in your campaign have either a EC or are characteristic heavy. In the last campaign I was in, every character was one or the other.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

Perhaps Gary's profession creates a greater sensitivity to the cost of various aspects of Champions creations?

 

Possibly. I'm very good at finding holes in the rules and exploiting loopholes. Did I ever show you my 1 real point thermonuclear bomb?

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Gary

If you want Batman on 350, take Nighthawk as your template and modify a few things. Use experience if you want a true Batman.

You were the one citing Batman as a well-conceived character.

[Gary]

Originally posted by McCoy

You were the one citing Batman as a well-conceived character.

 

He is well conceived. He's just too expensive for a 350 pt campaign, at least in his ultimate form. That's why if you want to play him, you either play in a higher level campaign, or you play a scaled down version and use xp to build him up.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Gary

He is well conceived.

No, he was a well conceived pulp fiction character in 1939. His peers are Doc Savage and the Shadow, not Superman and Wonder Woman. He preceeded the genre he is most fameous for, and each incarnation (Silver Age, Television, Movies) has diluted that conception. Some writers in the Bronze/Iron ages recaptured the original concept, most did not.

 

He is NOT a well conceived Champions character.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

There is a viable alternative. Simply give the related powers the limitation that it's actually worth. If you have a set of powers, give either a -1/4 or -1/2 limitation that to drain one drains all. To the extent that you give more points than this limitation, it is free points.

 

Gary, if this has been answered previously I apologize. I gather you are down on the EC concept in general. With this in mind, would you similarly limit multipowers? After all, the only limitation on a multi is that, for all these powers together, only "X" AP total may be used at one time.

 

The most common multipower, IME, is one with several attack powers, all Ultras. Let's use the example of 5 attack powers, each 60 points, and no limitations (keep it simple). A multipower pays 60 points for the pool, plus 6 for each slot, totals 30. Total cost 90, +6 to add a slot.

 

How is it limited? Well, you can only use one attack at a time anyway, except as a multi-power attack. FREd says "Can't multi power attack" is worth -1/4 in the discussion of attack powers. So instead of getting those 5 powers for 90 points in total, our hypothetical character should pay 48 points each (60/1.25), or 240 points for 5 attacks, +48 for each added one.

 

Now, before Farkling gets a swelled head over this , I'm not arguing attack-only multipowers should be disallowed. I am, however, arguing that, if you think the point break for EC's should be removed in favour of a standard limitation for "all drained together", then you should also be in favour of removal of multipowers altogether in favour of limitations that more appropriately quantify the restrictions placed on powers in that framework.

 

I don't even want to think what this approach would do to a VPP!

 

EDIT PS: I almost forgot - you have to talk about Batman as a prerequisite to post here now. I'd say Batman was initially conceived as a pulp character. At some point in time, however, he changed to blend in with the supers genre. Arguably, this was very early on (when he stopped carrying the gun which he had a holster for initially, perhaps; certainly when he didn't let the Joker die in his first appearance). In the course of this, he evolved from a knock off pulp character (geez - there had already been The Bat) and became the archetype for skills-based supers.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I don't even want to think what this approach would do to a VPP!

Me neither, but it happened anyway. You'd have to buy all the powers that can be in the VPP with a limitation "Only usable when no more than X real points in use by other powers with this limitation". How much is that worth? I'd be surprised at more than -1/2.

 

It amounts to eliminating the point of VPP's from the game - which, incidentally, would make doing Batman pretty much impossible. We've got frameworks for good reasons.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Jeff

Me neither, but it happened anyway. You'd have to buy all the powers that can be in the VPP with a limitation "Only usable when no more than X real points in use by other powers with this limitation". How much is that worth? I'd be surprised at more than -1/2.

 

The problem is that the limitation probably has to vary with how many real points you've paid for powers in general. So if you buy more powers, maybe the limitation goes up, which would mean each power costs less real points, so you can buy more of them and use more of them at the same time...OUCH! Which is why I didn't want to think about it

 

Originally posted by Jeff

It amounts to eliminating the point of VPP's from the game - which, incidentally, would make doing Batman pretty much impossible. We've got frameworks for good reasons.

 

Well, that seems to be the thrust of this thread. Some want to eliminate EC's, but if they give too big a break, so do multipowers and VPP's.

 

And you're right - no multipower or VPP definitely means no utility belt - it just wouldn't be cost effective.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Gary, if this has been answered previously I apologize. I gather you are down on the EC concept in general. With this in mind, would you similarly limit multipowers? After all, the only limitation on a multi is that, for all these powers together, only "X" AP total may be used at one time.

 

The most common multipower, IME, is one with several attack powers, all Ultras. Let's use the example of 5 attack powers, each 60 points, and no limitations (keep it simple). A multipower pays 60 points for the pool, plus 6 for each slot, totals 30. Total cost 90, +6 to add a slot.

 

How is it limited? Well, you can only use one attack at a time anyway, except as a multi-power attack. FREd says "Can't multi power attack" is worth -1/4 in the discussion of attack powers. So instead of getting those 5 powers for 90 points in total, our hypothetical character should pay 48 points each (60/1.25), or 240 points for 5 attacks, +48 for each added one.

 

Now, before Farkling gets a swelled head over this , I'm not arguing attack-only multipowers should be disallowed. I am, however, arguing that, if you think the point break for EC's should be removed in favour of a standard limitation for "all drained together", then you should also be in favour of removal of multipowers altogether in favour of limitations that more appropriately quantify the restrictions placed on powers in that framework.

 

I don't even want to think what this approach would do to a VPP!

 

EDIT PS: I almost forgot - you have to talk about Batman as a prerequisite to post here now. I'd say Batman was initially conceived as a pulp character. At some point in time, however, he changed to blend in with the supers genre. Arguably, this was very early on (when he stopped carrying the gun which he had a holster for initially, perhaps; certainly when he didn't let the Joker die in his first appearance). In the course of this, he evolved from a knock off pulp character (geez - there had already been The Bat) and became the archetype for skills-based supers.

 

I consider it a very serious limitation that only the reserve active points could be used at any one time. A 60 pt multipower with 5 slots can only use 60 pts at a time. A 60 pt EC with 5 slots could use 300 pts at one time. A pretty hefty difference.

 

To answer your point about buying attacks with no mpa, there are a couple of problems with your analysis. First of all, a multipower gets nuked all at the same time by a single attack. You're multibarrel gun with 5 ammo types is far more vulnerable than a guy with a rifle, pistol, knife, rope, and gas grenades as separate attacks.

 

Second of all, your price structure is completely out of whack. 240 pts would give you either a 48d6 EB or a 32d6 EB at 0 end which is far superior to 5 separate 60 pt attacks. Therefore the value of 5 separate attacks is worth less than 240 pts. At 90 pts, you can get a 18d6 EB which is roughly as valuable as the choice of a 12d6 eb, 4d6 rka, 8d6 explosion EB, 12d6 flash, or 6d6 entangle. At least the value of the 18d6 eb is in the same ballpark with the multipower, unlike the 48d6 or 32d6 0 end.

[Farkling]

/QUOTE/ In my experience, most characters are either characteristic heavy, or built with attack multipower or vpp and EC movement and defense. I'd be interested in what percentage of characters in your campaign have either a EC or are characteristic heavy. In the last campaign I was in, every character was one or the other. /ENDQUOTE/

 

Let's see..

The Weatherwitch is an EC,

Crushbone is a characteristic heavy brick/ma hybrid, buying absorbtion and an EB as XP's accumulate.

Wolf is a skill-based cyborg...hmmm...ma/EB hybrid. Characteristics/Multipower.

Cory is a characteristic heavy straight up brick. 50 CON, 100 END, 60 STR...X-ray vision.

Wheels is a Multipower Mentalist (Computers and People)

The ArchAngel Michael is currently a Multipower...he may be swapped for a Divine VPP after the player reads those rules.

 

But as that old softie Hugh is aware...I am personally and violently against constructs which "conveniently" place all the attack powers in one framework, and movment/defense in another framework. I send people back to the drawing boards for that. I prefer characters with room for conceptual growth.

 

Now...mechanically speaking...the Weatherwitch has spent points to buy off limits on her EC...and is aware she will need to save points "forever!" to buy a new slot...the Multipower players have bough a couple new powers already (one bought THREE flavor powers...no combat use whatsoever...I'm so proud!) ... Cory bought some small powers, Crushbone is buying a power, and has bought some skills. The EC player has a disadvantage the others don't....broadening her power base is more difficult...as she put it "lots of time and practice"

 

I repeat...there is a down side in the point savings for the EC if used for full level powers. That's why I disapprove of movement/defense EC's stacked with attack multipowers.

[Rene]

I was never much of a Batman fan. I have a superstrong suspension of disbelief, I can believe in Kryptonian aliens, mutants, and Olympian Gods with no trouble, but I find it hard to believe in a guy that has every damned skill in the book and is an unparalled master with them all.

 

Nothing gets to me more than some people saying Batman is the best superhero there is, because he is the only one who is "human" or whatever. He is only human in a strictly technical physical sense. Batman never loses (Bane had to cheat a lot to best him, throwing every Batman villain against him to wear him out). Not even James Bond is so irritating.

 

But I have to admit I kinda like how some writers like Grant Morrison deal with Batman. It's funny in a almost satirical way to see how outrageous they can make Batman. Then it becomes something more openly like mind-boggling science fiction.

 

I think Captain America or even Nightwing, for instance, are finer examples of supernormals who're still formidable, but can't perform brain surgery while composing symphonies and designing computer circuitry. Even Reed Richards is mostly limited to physical sciences only.

 

You can't do Batman in less than 700 pts. The 'most human of all superheroes' my ass.

 

 

Originally posted by McCoy

No, he was a well conceived pulp fiction character in 1939. His peers are Doc Savage and the Shadow, not Superman and Wonder Woman. He preceeded the genre he is most fameous for, and each incarnation (Silver Age, Television, Movies) has diluted that conception. Some writers in the Bronze/Iron ages recaptured the original concept, most did not.

 

He is NOT a well conceived Champions character.

[Farkling]

/QUOTE/

A 60 pt EC with 5 slots could use 300 pts at one time.

/ENDQUOTE/

 

Show me an example of that which would be allowed in a game with AP caps.

 

/QUOTE/

Second of all, your price structure is completely out of whack. 240 pts would give you either a 48d6 EB or a 32d6 EB at 0 end which is far superior to 5 separate 60 pt attacks. Therefore the value of 5 separate attacks is worth less than 240 pts.

/ENDQUOTE/

 

And how is that relevant to the argument in a game with AP caps?

 

/QUOTE/

At 90 pts, you can get a 18d6 EB which is roughly as valuable as the choice of a 12d6 eb, 4d6 rka, 8d6 explosion EB, 12d6 flash, or 6d6 entangle. At least the value of the 18d6 eb is in the same ballpark with the multipower, unlike the 48d6 or 32d6 0 end.

/ENDQUOTE/

 

At 120 Points I can purchase the 12d6 EB with a +1/2 Variable Advantage...and for another 120 Points I can do the same with a 4d6 RKA....and the "48d6 or 32d6 0 end" is still wildly more powerful.

 

You cannot argue "fairness" and "equal value" for points within the system and with the same breath use examples that violate the point caps we picture on the characters. That's a spurious argument.

 

I fully admit that the 5 power (60) AP EC is more flexible and more bang for the buck than the 60d6 EB I could buy with the same points. But if the game allows a 60d6 EB, why the hell would I buy a 60 AP EC except for flavor powers? And for flavor powers I think PC's deserve a break.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Gary

To answer your point about buying attacks with no mpa, there are a couple of problems with your analysis. First of all, a multipower gets nuked all at the same time by a single attack. You're multibarrel gun with 5 ammo types is far more vulnerable than a guy with a rifle, pistol, knife, rope, and gas grenades as separate attacks.

 

But that is only a Limitation for Multipowers built with Focus. And even then the Focus will have a DEF equal to the Point Reserve, that is usually bigger than small powers built into separated Focus. Also, the same thing could be said of Elemental Control built with Focus.

 

 

Originally posted by Gary

Second of all, your price structure is completely out of whack. 240 pts would give you either a 48d6 EB or a 32d6 EB at 0 end which is far superior to 5 separate 60 pt attacks. Therefore the value of 5 separate attacks is worth less than 240 pts. At 90 pts, you can get a 18d6 EB which is roughly as valuable as the choice of a 12d6 eb, 4d6 rka, 8d6 explosion EB, 12d6 flash, or 6d6 entangle. At least the value of the 18d6 eb is in the same ballpark with the multipower, unlike the 48d6 or 32d6 0 end.

 

That is only partially true. It's hard to quantify the value of versatily. 32 EB will do nothing against a Desolified Character, for instance, and could be resisted by a Mega-Villain with 75% Damage Reduction plus high Armor, and could be easily dodged by Spiderlad, etc.

 

Now Multipower-Man probably can whip out Drains to get the Mega-Villain, Flashes or even Affect Desolidied attacks to get the Ghost, Area Effects to get Spiderlad, and so on, and so on.

 

"Can't use all powers simultaneously" hardly constitutes a significant limitation when almost all players use Multipowers to get a bunch of powers that they couldn't frequently use simultaneously anyway.

 

BTW, I'm with Farkling. Multiple Frameworks in a single character almost always are bad.