OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

[Tribal]

Ok so I make a character with no offensive Mental powers should I sell Back My OMCV and get back the 9 pts.(I know it is a Munchkin thing to do but I can see it happening now that it is not figured from ego and seperate from DMCV) or is it good for something else.

[Sean Waters]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

OMCV?

 

What is it good for?

 

Absolutely nothing! Huh!

 

Say it again!

 

 

 

 

What?

[JmOz]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Let me say that I like the inclusion of CV's as characteristics, lets me build certain types that I could not do before...

 

second I beleive both of the MCV's are mispriced, with Def being one point to low and Offencive being one point to much

 

As to your question, by RAW, not much

 

however I could see one of two things to do with it

 

First allow anyone in TP contact (both the possesor of the power and victim) to make Telepathic attacks similar to "normal" attacks, maybe requiring somelevel of concentration (Ego subs for Str in this), again MOCV will not be super useful, but at least it will ahve some use

 

Second, have you ever read the dark phoenix sage? In it Cyclops is transported to the astra plane, where some illuisionist that's name escapes me, basicaly own's him...this would be some EDM to world where INT =Dex, Ego=Str

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I would want to know why the character selling back his OMCV lacks the talent in this area that Joe Sixpack has. Why is he deficient in this area? On reflection, I think OMCV and DMCV should probably have had a base of zero. This eliminates the sellback issue, and indicates that the typical character (who invests no points in mental CV's) lacks any ability in this regard as he has no experience with mental combat.

 

Assuming OMCV stays at a base 3 and characters sell it back, then they should expect to occasionally be placed in situations where their lack of OMCV matters. The sellback needs to have detrimental effects before the character should expect to recover points for it. The impediment should combine frequency and severity similar to a 10 point disadvantage, since you got 9 points back for having 0 OMCV.

[Bloodstone]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Perhaps if there was a Mental Block maneuver... or if OMCV was somehow involved in Breakout Rolls...

[ghost-angel]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

You can only sell the Characteristic back to 1 in the first place. You only get 6pts.

 

As for anything else.. that's up to the GM and the Game at hand. As far as the rules themselves are concerned... well... they have nothing to say on the matter.

[Tribal]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

You can only sell the Characteristic back to 1 in the first place. You only get 6pts.

 

As for anything else.. that's up to the GM and the Game at hand. As far as the rules themselves are concerned... well... they have nothing to say on the matter.

 

Hd lets you sell it back to zero, but now I just looked at the rule and you are correct good sir.

 

This is what happens when you don't have a physical book to go through.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I would want to know why the character selling back his OMCV lacks the talent in this area that Joe Sixpack has.

 

Why wouldn't Joe Sixpack sell his OMCV back? He's not going to make any use out of it, either.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Why wouldn't Joe Sixpack sell his OMCV back? He's not going to make any use out of it' date=' either.[/quote']

 

If the standard were for Joe Sixpack to sell his OMCV back, then the standard template would reflect OMCV of 1 (or 0), and not 3.

 

Your answer is, to me, good support for the view that Joe Sixpack, and any other typical character, having base OMCV of 0 (1 by the de minimis rules) rather than a base of 3. If we also drop DMCV to a base of 1, then all characters start out at the same 11- chance to hit with no further purchases, and we eliminate the "my character has less OMCV than the typical member of the human race" dichotomy.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

If the standard were for Joe Sixpack to sell his OMCV back, then the standard template would reflect OMCV of 1 (or 0), and not 3.

 

Your answer is, to me, good support for the view that Joe Sixpack, and any other typical character, having base OMCV of 0 (1 by the de minimis rules) rather than a base of 3. If we also drop DMCV to a base of 1, then all characters start out at the same 11- chance to hit with no further purchases, and we eliminate the "my character has less OMCV than the typical member of the human race" dichotomy.

 

it's not like you can't change the templates. Were I to pick up 6th, a typical man-on-the-street would have an OMCV of 1 (with points back, if I really concerned myself with the point value of normals). I would have no issue with non-mentalists selling back their OMCV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I think CrosshairCollie's solution is best.

 

After all, the book "Normal" is merely an example. Yes, it's a baseline we can all see here on the boards to be on the same starting line. But after that, it's anyone's game.

 

I might be inclined to define Normals as OMCV 2; so you can have a Weak Normal of OMCV 1.

[Peregrine]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I think CrosshairCollie's solution is best.

 

After all, the book "Normal" is merely an example. Yes, it's a baseline we can all see here on the boards to be on the same starting line. But after that, it's anyone's game.

 

I might be inclined to define Normals as OMCV 2; so you can have a Weak Normal of OMCV 1.

 

In our own games, sure. Right of Houserule and all that.

 

But take note of 6E1-437-440. Granted, those are probably converted directly from their 5eR equivalents, with all of the caveats thus entailed, but they are nevertheless the de facto published standard; deviation therefrom being, by definition, exercise of the Right of Houserule, with all of the caveats likewise thus entailed.

 

(I emphasize the distinction because of a discussion on another thread wherein the distinction got lost, overlooked, or ignored - I never did figure out which...)

[prestidigitator]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I'd allow it if you had sufficient concept-based justification that didn't cause my cheese detector to go bonkers.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I'd allow it if you had sufficient concept-based justification that didn't cause my cheese detector to go bonkers.

 

I can't imagine any justification beyond 'I don't have mental powers. How could I have an OMCV greater than nothing? It's not even that I didn't practice, I don't have the capability of using that statistic' being required.

 

To go to the other extreme (with admitted possible straw man involved), if a character were paralyzed from the neck down from birth, and only had mental powers, would you object to him buying his OCV and/or DCV all the way down? It seems to be a parallel situation to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

In our own games, sure. Right of Houserule and all that.

 

But take note of 6E1-437-440. Granted, those are probably converted directly from their 5eR equivalents, with all of the caveats thus entailed, but they are nevertheless the de facto published standard; deviation therefrom being, by definition, exercise of the Right of Houserule, with all of the caveats likewise thus entailed.

 

(I emphasize the distinction because of a discussion on another thread wherein the distinction got lost, overlooked, or ignored - I never did figure out which...)

 

I do not, under any condition, circumstance, idea, thought, or exercise consider an "Example Character" to be a "rule" by any definition.

 

As I said - it's a BASELINE to START from. Stating a change is not a House Rule. It's moving the SUGGESTED numbers.

 

Just like changing NCM to 25 is not suddenly a "house rule" - it's using NCM as intended.

 

Just like stating Superhuman Ability starts at 25+ instead of the book SUGGESTED 31+.

 

Yeah, those numbers are nice to have when discussing them specifically, or even just to give everyone a starting idea. But they are NOT rules. At all. The books says "Can use these" not "These are the defacto Rules for."

 

 

The distinction is important and often gets lost, overlooked, or ignored.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I can't imagine any justification beyond 'I don't have mental powers. How could I have an OMCV greater than nothing? It's not even that I didn't practice' date=' I don't have the capability of using that statistic' being required.[/quote']

 

Based on which, I would revise the standard. None of those Normal Humans have any opportunity to use the statistic either, so they should also have OMCV of nothing. They have no opportunity to avoid mental attacks either, so it would seem reasonable to apply the same logic to eliminate their DMCV.

 

Funny, I don't see people lining up to sell DMCV back. Yet the same philosophical basis that justifies selling back OMCV also justifies selling back DMCV, doesn't it?

[Sean Waters]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Whilst I absolutely agree that it is terribly bad form to sell back OMCV, and none of you should do it as it and not in the spirit of the game for almost ALL characters, unless and until a GM or the rules come up with a non mental atatck use for OMCV, the small subset of ALL characters that comprise the characters that I play who do NOT have mental attack powers all seem to have suffered head injuries at some point in the past, damaging the part of the brain that deals with mental offence.

 

So that's all right then.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Based on which, I would revise the standard. None of those Normal Humans have any opportunity to use the statistic either, so they should also have OMCV of nothing. They have no opportunity to avoid mental attacks either, so it would seem reasonable to apply the same logic to eliminate their DMCV.

 

Funny, I don't see people lining up to sell DMCV back. Yet the same philosophical basis that justifies selling back OMCV also justifies selling back DMCV, doesn't it?

 

If you've never needed any kind of willpower or whatever, like normal people, then yes. I'd figure a typical super is mentally tougher just for the willpower to go get blasted for no financial recompensation.

 

Of course, I've still got ECV based off EGO, so ...

[torchwolf]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

I do not, under any condition, circumstance, idea, thought, or exercise consider an "Example Character" to be a "rule" by any definition.

 

As I said - it's a BASELINE to START from. Stating a change is not a House Rule. It's moving the SUGGESTED numbers.

 

Just like changing NCM to 25 is not suddenly a "house rule" - it's using NCM as intended.

 

Just like stating Superhuman Ability starts at 25+ instead of the book SUGGESTED 31+.

 

Yeah, those numbers are nice to have when discussing them specifically, or even just to give everyone a starting idea. But they are NOT rules. At all. The books says "Can use these" not "These are the defacto Rules for."

 

 

The distinction is important and often gets lost, overlooked, or ignored.

 

I cannot enough agree on this. Baselines are per campaign only.

 

On the issue of the starting MCVs, it is noted that neither of the MCVs exist in a campaign without Mental Powers, and cannot therefore be sold back. A creative extrapolation would be that as Joe Q Normal has absolutely no conception of his comparative talent for mental combat, he has no MCV at all until he discovers that he in fact has; therefore it is not an issue until he encounters such a situation, and since he doesn't know this, he cannot justify selling MCV back (or buying it up). Another approach is that the GM can note "OK, so you want to sell your MCV down, so you mean you want Mental Powers to affect your character during the game?" (6E2, p270)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

If you've never needed any kind of willpower or whatever, like normal people, then yes. I'd figure a typical super is mentally tougher just for the willpower to go get blasted for no financial recompensation.

 

Of course, I've still got ECV based off EGO, so ...

 

6e separates Ego from mental CV, so willpower and mental combat ability are not linked. And why would willpower factor into defensive MCV, and not offensive MCV?

 

On the issue of the starting MCVs' date=' it is noted that neither of the MCVs exist in a campaign without Mental Powers, and cannot therefore be sold back. A creative extrapolation would be that as Joe Q Normal has absolutely no conception of his comparative talent for mental combat, he has no MCV at all until he discovers that he in fact has; therefore it is not an issue until he encounters such a situation, and since he doesn't know this, he cannot justify selling MCV back (or buying it up). Another approach is that the GM can note [b']"OK, so you want to sell your MCV down, so you mean you want Mental Powers to affect your character during the game?" [/b](6E2, p270)

 

Emphasis added. By taking points for a limitation, disadvantage or sellback, the player is, in my view, saying "GM, this is a challenge my character faces - please ensure it comes up in the game." Just like spending points on a skill or power is saying "GM, this is an advantage my character possesses - please ensure it comes up in the game."

 

If it's not going to come up in the game, the GM should disallow any point consequences - that is, it doesn't save points and it doesn't cost points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Whilst I absolutely agree that it is terribly bad form to sell back OMCV' date=' and none of you should do it as it and not in the spirit of the game for [i']almost [/i]ALL characters, unless and until a GM or the rules come up with a non mental atatck use for OMCV, the small subset of ALL characters that comprise the characters that I play who do NOT have mental attack powers all seem to have suffered head injuries at some point in the past, damaging the part of the brain that deals with mental offence.

 

So that's all right then.

 

So, does he have amnesia.

 

Are you sure?

 

Maybe he just doesn't REMEMBER he has amnesia...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

6e separates Ego from mental CV' date=' so willpower and mental combat ability are not linked. And why would willpower factor into defensive MCV, and not offensive MCV?[/quote']

 

One reason I'm not going to 6th.

My personal definition of willpower is, well, defensive in nature. Keeping things from getting to you, keeping people out of your head. You can have willpower without having mental powers; there's no way besides a mental power or perhaps a presence attack to 'project your will' at others.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

One reason I'm not going to 6th.

My personal definition of willpower is, well, defensive in nature. Keeping things from getting to you, keeping people out of your head. You can have willpower without having mental powers; there's no way besides a mental power or perhaps a presence attack to 'project your will' at others.

 

I see no reason someone could not have a high EGO and a high Mental DCV based on willpower. I just don't see how that individual could then reasonably be deficient compared to an average person in respect of his Mental OCV. The logic does not follow.

 

He has no attacks which require him to use OMCV, but that doesn't mean his strong mind would not logically result in at least a "base human average" OMCV. In 5e, he automatically gets OMCV from a high EGO, of course.

 

I think what the system really needs is an "active resistance" maneuver for mental combat similar to Block, where OMCV would be relevant for characters lacking mental attacks. Perhaps it might dovetail into the breakout roll system somehow (maybe a means of obtaining an extra breakout roll, or a bonus on the breakout roll).

 

A full revamping of mental powers to get rid of Breakout rolls in favour of a more "give and take" system, where the attacker can build up control over time while the defender works to erode it, would be an even better approach.

 

Of course, the whole thing could easily be solved by making baseline MCV zero instead of 3. No skill? Pay no points and stay at 0. No issue for sellbacks, and you are either "human norm" or you pay to be better.

[Ice9]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

Funny, I don't see people lining up to sell DMCV back. Yet the same philosophical basis that justifies selling back OMCV also justifies selling back DMCV, doesn't it?

Actually, I was thinking about that, and if you're not planning to buy up your DMCV, you might as well sell it back too, maybe get some EGO or Mental Defense instead. Against a mentalist with a decent OMCV, DMCV 3 is no more helpful than DCV 3.

 

As for the reasoning - Zen-Style Mental Countermeasures Training. By emptying the mind of all struggle, and bending with the incoming attack rather than trying to block it, the hostile force will flow past like a river, leaving you relatively untouched. In a world where mental powers are a fact of life, I can see agencies like UNTIL providing this type of training to their operatives.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: OMCV Whats it good for (besides Mental Powers)

 

If you've never needed any kind of willpower or whatever, like normal people, then yes. I'd figure a typical super is mentally tougher just for the willpower to go get blasted for no financial recompensation.

 

Of course, I've still got ECV based off EGO, so ...

 

One reason I'm not going to 6th.

My personal definition of willpower is, well, defensive in nature. Keeping things from getting to you, keeping people out of your head. You can have willpower without having mental powers; there's no way besides a mental power or perhaps a presence attack to 'project your will' at others.

It really sounds like you're looking for Mental Defense, not MCV...